C-17 or A400M for Australia?

[rossfrb_1]

I recall reading it in one of his articles either in Defence Today or Aust Aviation mag. I'm certain he stated in his "analysis" (as part of his 747 based AAR idea) that a "minimum" of 16-18 aircraft would be required to fill our strategic requirements properly. Can't remember when it was published, but I remember being absolutely astounded when I read it.

What reality does he live in to think that number of AAR aircraft is even slightly feasible for RAAF??? The British program to acquire that many is going to cost them $30 Billion over the life of the program and even THEY are choking on the cost of it. Our WHOLE defence capability plan budget is "only" around $50 Billion!!!

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/a330_200/
http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Hilltpl.cfm?CurrentId=4460

The RAF program is out to 27 years or so.
The RAAF prgram don't know, but cost is $1.4 billion for five aircraft.
Simple maths says that twenty would cost the RAAF less than 6 billion (I would expect if they did get twenty then they'd get a better deal)

If you added the cost of these to the $10 Billion F-22 program, the $10 billion "super" F-111 program, the acquisition of EW Jammer based F-111's (plus their commensurate upgrades to make them useable in a modern environment, to acquire all this, plus the existing upgrades, the Australian Government would probably have to raise the GST to around 50%...
{snip}

Got any breakdown on that ten billion costing for the F-111 upgrade? ie how many aircraft to what standard...?
Apparently at one time the US had up to eight F-111 Ravens earmarked for the RAAF. Presumably some work was done costing them for RAAF service?
This sort of stuff interests me. Got any info?

cheers
rb

 

[Aussie Digger]

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/a330_200/
http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Hilltpl.cfm?CurrentId=4460

The RAF program is out to 27 years or so.
The RAAF prgram don't know, but cost is $1.4 billion for five aircraft.
Simple maths says that twenty would cost the RAAF less than 6 billion (I would expect if they did get twenty then they'd get a better deal)



Got any breakdown on that ten billion costing for the F-111 upgrade? ie how many aircraft to what standard...?
Apparently at one time the US had up to eight F-111 Ravens earmarked for the RAAF. Presumably some work was done costing them for RAAF service?
This sort of stuff interests me. Got any info?

cheers
rb

My comment for $10 billion for the F-111 upgrade idea was based on Kopp's proposed program of upgrading 36 F-111C/G models to a proposed F-111S level.

The program proposed equipping the F-111 aircraft with the F-119 "supercruising" engines from the F-22, the F-22's AESA radar system, and an advanced avionics system including an upgraded Pavetack system, with only the internal's upgraded, to at least JSF level optics etc.

New weapons and wiring systems were also proposed for the aircraft to allow it to employ "J" series weapons, (plus obviously eariler gen weapons) plus a completely new EWSP system, allowing it to be employed as a "pseudo" RAVEN/SEAD aircraft, the aircraft would also incorporate various "stealthing" measures, designed to allow the aircraft to achieve a significant RCS reduction, though obviously not to the level of that of dedicated stealth aircraft.

oh, Dr KOPP also advocated the integration of advanced AMRAAM variants onto the F-111, to allow it to be an all singing all dancing "super" aircraft capable of performing nearly all roles, including that of an air to air intercepter...

My $10 billion pricetag was based on the magnitude of these ideas, the difficulty that WOULD be incurred in attempting to integrate them onto the F-111, and the expenditure that would be required to design the thing, in the first place.

Needless to say, RAAF was not exactly enthused on this idea, given the difficulty it has had JUST to integrate, the AGM-142 Popeye missile (6 years of work and hundreds of millions of dollars), let alone the FAR more advanced ideas, propounded by Dr KOPP...

 

[rossfrb_1]

Hmmmm, at one point the budget was supposed to be around $2 billion AUD for up to six aircraft. Now it appears it's 2 billion USD for up to four aircraft. Just goes to show, when you do business with the yanks without competitive tendering you get screwed. (Bleak's recent cartoon in the Australian comes to mind!) http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...E31477,00.html "Australia in $2.8bn plane deal From correspondents in Washington April 04, 2006 THE US Defence Department has approved a possible sale of up to four Boeing Co C-17 cargo planes and associated equipment to Australia, in a deal worth up to $US2 billion ($2.8 billion). The Pentagon's Defence Security Cooperation Agency today told Congress the Australian government had requested the sale of the C-17s, up to 18 F-177 engines made by United Technologies Corp's Pratt & Whitney unit, and up to four AN/AAQ-24 infrared countermeasures systems made by Northrop Grumman Corp. Politicians now have 30 days to reject the proposed sale, which also includes night vision goggles and assorted other equipment, but Congress has rarely acted to block a sale. DSCA, which oversees major arms sales, said the sale would give Australia a heavy airlift capability, which it currently relies on the US Air Force or contract carriers using Russian aircraft to provide. "The C-17 will greatly improve Australia's capability to rapidly deploy in support of global coalition operations and will also greatly enhance its ability to lead regional humanitarian/peacekeeping operations," the agency said....."

 

[Pursuit Curve]

If I were to chgose a transport, the first question I would ask is:
1) Will it have to be used on unprepared / tactical operations?
2) Will it only operate from Air Heads established at existing Airports?

I would rather have the C17, because it can get in and out of rough filds and has a smaller footprint than the 400.

Also it has been built from the start as a Military Tactical Transport.

 

[Sea Toby]

Good for Australia. Four C-17s, the Globemasters are excellent aircraft.

 

[Cootamundra]

Hmmmm, at one point the budget was supposed to be around $2 billion AUD for up to six aircraft. Now it appears it's 2 billion USD for up to four aircraft. Just goes to show, when you do business with the yanks without competitive tendering you get screwed. (Bleak's recent cartoon in the Australian comes to mind!) http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...E31477,00.html "Australia in $2.8bn plane deal From correspondents in Washington April 04, 2006 THE US Defence Department has approved a possible sale of up to four Boeing Co C-17 cargo planes and associated equipment to Australia, in a deal worth up to $US2 billion ($2.8 billion). The Pentagon's Defence Security Cooperation Agency today told Congress the Australian government had requested the sale of the C-17s, up to 18 F-177 engines made by United Technologies Corp's Pratt & Whitney unit, and up to four AN/AAQ-24 infrared countermeasures systems made by Northrop Grumman Corp. Politicians now have 30 days to reject the proposed sale, which also includes night vision goggles and assorted other equipment, but Congress has rarely acted to block a sale. DSCA, which oversees major arms sales, said the sale would give Australia a heavy airlift capability, which it currently relies on the US Air Force or contract carriers using Russian aircraft to provide. "The C-17 will greatly improve Australia's capability to rapidly deploy in support of global coalition operations and will also greatly enhance its ability to lead regional humanitarian/peacekeeping operations," the agency said....."

Ross, it was only ever $2 billion and its $2 billion AUD i think you'll find. At least this has come from outside of the defence budget and is in effect a top up. Also I believe that in the next few weeks more announcments will be coming out around Tac transport. I have nothing concrete excpet posts from other more well informed people (eg. gf) to suggest this.

 

[Supe]

Spotted on MP.net.

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- Boeing Co. (BA) is seeking international buyers for its C-17 cargo plane to keep the production line alive, said John Lockard, president of the company's precision engagement and mobility systems unit.
Boeing hopes to attract new buyers by offering a special price through June. The basic C-17 aircraft could be available for as little as $150 million each, not including engines and avionics equipment, Lockard told reporters attending a Navy League press briefing.
The C-17 faces a line shutdown in 2008 unless the Pentagon decides to buy more planes. International purchases make up only a fraction of Boeing's production, but each additional aircraft buys more time for C-17 fans to seek more orders.
California lawmakers have rallied around the plane in an effort to keep aerospace workers employed. Boeing officials also have met with L-3 Communications Holdings Inc. (LLL) about a possible alliance on the upcoming Joint Cargo Aircraft contest, an Army-Air Force effort to buy small battlefield-transport planes.

source

Sans engines/avionics? Surely the package is aimed at further USAF orders. I can't see much utility in a foreign buyers buying this package. Am I missing something?

 

[Sea Toby]

Boeing's implication is the price for the airframe is rock bottom, I doubt whether GE, P&W, or RR are offering their jet turbines at a discount, nor are the electronic suites being offered by other companies. The other companies can sell their turbines and electronic suites for other aircraft.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Has the C130J been evaluated by the RAAF? I am trying to figure out why the choice is either the C17 of A400 for the RAAF.

 

[Magoo]

Has the C130J been evaluated by the RAAF? I am trying to figure out why the choice is either the C17 of A400 for the RAAF.

Evaluated and in service. We have 12 C-130J-30s in service, and are looking at getting up to six more in a few years, possibly fitted with A2A refuelling points.

Magoo

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Thanks Magoo, and what is the verdict? I suppose that snce you have them in service and are ordering more than the Herc must be popular. Canada right now is looking at either the C17 or the J model herc, personally I think a combo of both is a good idea. BUt here is the question, Isn't the A400 similar in capability as the C130j?

Man I am out of date! Excuse the earlier question about evaluating the C130J guess I have to update my inventory knowledge, or mmore to teh point, lack of knowledge!

 

[Magoo]

Thanks Magoo, and what is the verdict? I suppose that snce you have them in service and are ordering more than the Herc must be popular. Canada right now is looking at either the C17 or the J model herc, personally I think a combo of both is a good idea. BUt here is the question, Isn't the A400 similar in capability as the C130j?

Man I am out of date! Excuse the earlier question about evaluating the C130J guess I have to update my inventory knowledge, or mmore to teh point, lack of knowledge!

After a few teething troubles with our Js, we now love em. If only we could get the spares from LockMart!

The A400M carries twice as much as a J but only half as much as a C-17.

Magoo

 

[Mercenary]

Greater Market for C-17 Sales

"USAF will not require any more than 180 C-17's, so will boeing keep the production lines open ? will nations even be able to order new build c-17's, right now the production will cease at 185, with 5 for the Royal AF"

Don't forget the USAF is retiring about 20-C-141 Starlifter strategic transport jets which all were heavily modified specifically for Special Forces insertion, recovery, and resupply. These aircraft will be replaced with the C-17...indeed. Which means that's 20 extra C-17's not accounted for on the order books for the USAF's total requirements.

And there was talk in the past about modifiying C-17's for an Air-to-Air-Refueling role.

I believe the military market for the C-17 covers Japan for sure. And who knows with the Bush administration giving INDIA a free pass for Nuclear weapons proliferation and the Pentagon wanting to sell them $5 Billion (US) of advanced weaponary including AEGIS technology (idiots) there is a darn good possiblity that INDIA would become an excellent candiate for acquiring C-17B's as well.

Australia could sell their stretched CC-130J-II Hercules to some NATO nations and procure 4 or 6 C-17's. Then at a latter date procure 10 or 12 new STOL capable C-130J-II's along with maybe 16 C-27J Spartans which use the same engine, transmission and propellor systems as the C-130J-II's do thus would save alot of cash on logistics, spares support, training ground maintenance personnel, etc.

The A-400M won't even be in prototype form for probably another decade...realistically speaking due to that four nation consortium building the dam thang. Their will no doubt be ALOT of design changes Germany - France, etc will bicker about changes no doubt as they alway have on past projects. Then when the A-400M FINALLY goes into series production...well it will be sold first to the parent nations that build it, etc, etc. Figure 12 years at least from this date, minimum before the A-400M will be available for foreign orders to be...delivered! I'd wager to be it will take fifteen years.

The RAAF can't possibly wait this long for a non-built, un-tested Transport aircraft to come into production. No way.

Buy the C-17B is a well proven design and the costs over the long run will be overcome.

 

[Supe]

Australia could sell their stretched CC-130J-II Hercules to some NATO nations and procure 4 or 6 C-17's. Then at a latter date procure 10 or 12 new STOL capable C-130J-II's along with maybe 16 C-27J Spartans which use the same engine, transmission and propellor systems as the C-130J-II's do thus would save alot of cash on logistics, spares support, training ground maintenance personnel, etc.

Australian Govt is already going through the motions to buy up to 4 C-17's. It's pretty much a done deal. Rumours are floating around about additional 'J' series Herc acquisition to replace H series. Six J series IIRC. Also there is much speculation that a number of C-27's are to be bought to replace RAAF Caribou fleet. 'bout time too.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Australian Govt is already going through the motions to buy up to 4 C-17's. It's pretty much a done deal. Rumours are floating around about additional 'J' series Herc acquisition to replace H series. Six J series IIRC. Also there is much speculation that a number of C-27's are to be bought to replace RAAF Caribou fleet. 'bout time too.

Rumours from credible sources indicate that ADF is about to go on a major aircraft/helo buying spree within the next few months. Rumours include obviously the C-17 aircraft, plus additional C-130J-30 Hercs. Rumours also include the C-27/C-295 to partially replace the "Bou" and also additional C-47 Chinook aircraft, to also fill the gap, along with additional MRH-90 purchased under AIR-9000 plans.

Up to 4x C-130H's are to be "devoted" to supporting SOCOMD with 2x rumoured to be converted to AC-130H standard to provide a "gunship" capability for ADF.

The remainder of C-130H's will be sold or just withdrawn leaving us with 4x C-17, 18x C-130J, up to 14x C-27/C-295 and up to 12x C-47 to provide tactrans capability for whole of ADF, which will significantly increase our overall airlift capability, if it occurs...

 

[rossfrb_1]

{snip}
The remainder of C-130H's will be sold or just withdrawn leaving us with 4x C-17, 18x C-130J, up to 14x C-27/C-295 and up to 12x C-47 to provide tactrans capability for whole of ADF, which will significantly increase our overall airlift capability, if it occurs...

So is it a 'done deal' that the ADF will get four C-17s? What I've read so far has indicated a buy of three with the possibility of a fourth (contingent on cost I'm sure).
Some extra Chooks would be nice, but demand is currently supposed to be outstripping supply. They would probably have to be sourced at a premium then

rb

 

[Cootamundra]

So is it a 'done deal' that the ADF will get four C-17s? What I've read so far has indicated a buy of three with the possibility of a fourth (contingent on cost I'm sure).
Some extra Chooks would be nice, but demand is currently supposed to be outstripping supply. They would probably have to be sourced at a premium then

rb

No nothing is confirmed yet however we don't have all that long to wait the DCP comes out next month and there is a big meeting going on as part of that programme, apprently at this meeting we will here some more definitive decisions. I think you will find that 4 C-17s will be purchased, the oblique reference to 'around four' by DefMin Nelson is because the contract terms are still being sorted out.

 

[umair]

Ok I may(most likely will) sound stupid. But refurbished Starlifters anyone?
They were offered to us but no we had to buy ex PIA 707s.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Ok I may(most likely will) sound stupid. But refurbished Starlifters anyone?
They were offered to us but no we had to buy ex PIA 707s.

Not sure I'd be lining up to pick up Starlifters. They were getting a bit long in the tooth.

I remember seeing Starlifters doing the twice weekly run into Pine Gap (ie via Alice Springs) in 1977.

They would have been very very hi mileage. Nice jets though - just a bit over used IMO.

 

[cherry]

How do we replace 14 x Caribou with only $350m? (AIR 8000 phase 2)