C-17 or A400M for Australia?

[Whiskyjack]

The ADF LAVIII, and the RAAF's C-130's, must be totally different from what we have here, cause our LAV's barely fit and our Herks can barely operate them.

The Stryker needs a waiver from the Air Force to be carried on a C-130. The waiver is necessary because the vehicle is too wide to accommodate the 14-inch safety aisle around all sides that is required by the Air Force for the loadmaster (that is for a Stryker without the slat armor, with the slat armor in place it just does not fit at all). The infantry carrier variant requires multiple alterations to fit into a C-130 (note that our Strykers only have a RWS, we do not have turreted Strykers). Additionally, due to it's weight, only a portion of the Stryker crew may fly in the same aircraft--you need two C130's to carry one LAV and one crew. Both the M113 and the MTVL can be carried with a full combat load and full crew on the C-130 without the waiver required to carry a Stryker with a partial crew and only 4 of its 11 men. Even an empty LAV-III is 1,000 pounds over the C-130's short field landing airstrip 16-ton limit. Never mind the reduced range of the 130 when lifting the LAV.

NZ LAVs will fit into a Herc, the first thing they did when the first LAVs arrived was invite a bunch of people to see one being put into an RNZAF Herc. The issue is that they can’t deploy out side NZ as the weight cuts down the range to around 700-800kms. In the US this is not an issue as Hercs are used to deploy the Strykers (those that fit into a Herc) in a tactical situation.

 

[Sea Dog]

:flash
Now this is what I'm talking about:



* RPG pre-det bird cage all around but yet not so wide so M113A3 can still roll-on/off USAF aircraft for 3D maneuver warfare capabilities, you can't do this in a Stryker truck!

* High Hard Steel belts on sides, front, rear to increase roadside bomb and bullet protection to beyond 14.5mm HMG protection

* Underbelly armor to defeat land mines

* Extra spall liner inside

* TAGS see-thru gunshields to protect and see enemy first to shoot & kill him

* Ability to stow troop gear, sandbags on outside beneath hull and bird cage to increase ballistic protection levels

* Rolls on tracks that are cross-country mobile and do not puncture and burn like Stryker truck tires

:flash

 

[rossfrb_1]

Purchasing now seems to be the right idea if you ask me, with the production line drawing to a close we can probably get a very good deal and owning the kit would be very handy as we could then use it as the situation demanded. Also I would imagine that heavy lifters like the C-17s would then be around for some time so all in all we could find that we got a lot of value out of some new C-17s.

This from Weekly DIAR.com e-Newsletter No 06

"
BOEING DELIVERS FIRST PACIFIC REGION ‘GLOBEMASTER III’: Officials from ‘Hickam’ AFB in Honolulu have taken delivery of the first USAF C-17 ‘Globemaster III’ transport to be based outside the continental US. The newly delivered aircraft is the Air Force's 146th operational C-17, and the first of eight scheduled for delivery to Hickam between now and July 2006. Hickam's C-17s will be operated by the Air Force's 15th Airlift Wing and the Hawaii Air National Guard's 154th Wing. White House FY07 Defense Budget proposals failed to produce an anticipated extra funding to sustain the C-17 production line after the 180th aircraft, thus threatening the line with closure in 2008 if no further orders come to pass as a result of Congressional lobbying. The RAAF is currently developing a submission to acquire 4-6 C-17s under phase 3 of Project Air 8000. [07.02.06]"

cheers
rb

 

[Whiskyjack]

Question, if the RAAF gets it's 4-6 C-17s, will it keep the 12 Herc Hs?

1 C-17 gives the lift of 4 Hercs, so 4 C-17s is equivalent to 16 Hercs in lift, but 12 Herc Hs can be in more places.

Also to be brutal the loss of one Herc will not be as great a loss as a C-17. Will the C-17, in RAAF service, be allowed to be used in tactical air drop/assault situations, it may be to valuable.

 

[Aussie Digger]

The RAF have leased 3 C-17s from Boeing (another will be ordered) and have been very impressed. Originally they were a stop gap measure, because of delays to the A400M program. (The C-17s taking on the longer range tasks and the C-130k/Js doing the shorter range tasks).

The UK had planned to buy 25 A400Ms.

The RAF planners are now looking at reducing the numbers of A400Ms (12 -20) and buying 12 - 20 C-17s, also similar numbers of smaller twin engined aircraft (Spartan) for Special Operations.

I think that sharing may be the right way for both Australia and New Zealand to acquire heavy lift capacity at an affordable price. Similar arguements could be made for other specialsit platforms, AEW & tanking.

Mate, NZ unfortunately isn't really keen in investing too heavily in her defence. She won't fund a supportable force of 3 frigates (only purchasing 2) and has recently scrapped her entire air combat capability. NZ has no need for AEW, A2A tankers, and is extremely unlikely to fork out the dollars for a C-17 purchase.

Anywhere she deploys is going to be done with the assistance of others, or very close to home, where the MRV and Hercules/B-757 can managemost transport requirements.

Australia already has very well developed projects for AWACS (6x 737 -Wedgetail AWACS on order) and air to air refuelling capability (5x A330-200 MRTT on order).

As to

 

[Aussie Digger]

The RAF have leased 3 C-17s from Boeing (another will be ordered) and have been very impressed. Originally they were a stop gap measure, because of delays to the A400M program. (The C-17s taking on the longer range tasks and the C-130k/Js doing the shorter range tasks).

The UK had planned to buy 25 A400Ms.

The RAF planners are now looking at reducing the numbers of A400Ms (12 -20) and buying 12 - 20 C-17s, also similar numbers of smaller twin engined aircraft (Spartan) for Special Operations.

I think that sharing may be the right way for both Australia and New Zealand to acquire heavy lift capacity at an affordable price. Similar arguements could be made for other specialsit platforms, AEW & tanking.

Mate, NZ unfortunately isn't really keen in investing too heavily in her defence. She won't fund a supportable force of 3 frigates (only purchasing 2) and has recently scrapped her entire air combat capability. NZ has no need for AEW, A2A tankers, and is extremely unlikely to fork out the dollars for a C-17 purchase.

Anywhere she deploys is going to be done with the assistance of others, or very close to home, where the MRV and Hercules/B-757 can managemost transport requirements.

Australia already has very well developed projects for AWACS (6x 737 -Wedgetail AWACS on order) and air to air refuelling capability (5x A330-200 MRTT on order).

As to the NZ LAVIII Hercules issue, I think that is very similar to what you have stated Sea Dog, however I'm certain that no major disassembly is required and LAVIII's have been tested driving on/off with only minor tasks required to make the vehicle operational once it's off the Hercules (re-attachment of aerials, re-inflation of tyres, which is managed by the vehicle, re-filling of fuel tank etc). There is only a short period of time, probably around 15mins, before the can be made operational.

 

[cherry]

DEFENCE MINISTER TO ANNOUNCE GOVERNMENT'S PREFERRED OPTION FOR HEAVY LIFT AIRCRAFT


WHAT: Announcement of the Australian Government's preferred Heavy Lift Aircraft option to be considered for the Australian Defence Force.

WHO: Minister for Defence, the Hon Dr Brendan Nelson, accompanied by Chief of the Defence Force, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, Chief of the Air Force, Air Marshal Geoff Shepherd and other senior Defence personnel.

WHEN: Friday, 3 March 2006
Media should arrive by 1.30pm for a 2:00pm start.

WHERE: RAAF Base Richmond
Percival Street, Richmond, NSW
Meeting point is the fenced car park across the road from the front gate.

Please note that photo identification is required for entry to the base.

To request helicopter access, please call Squadron Leader Mark Rowe on 02 4587 2350.

The Minister for Defence, Dr Brendan Nelson, will be available for interview following the announcement.


Could this be an actual decision on the type and numbers of the aircraft they will be getting? If so, that would be an amazingly quick process for ADF.

 

[The_Jet]

DEFENCE MINISTER TO ANNOUNCE GOVERNMENT'S PREFERRED OPTION FOR HEAVY LIFT AIRCRAFT


WHAT: Announcement of the Australian Government's preferred Heavy Lift Aircraft option to be considered for the Australian Defence Force.

WHO: Minister for Defence, the Hon Dr Brendan Nelson, accompanied by Chief of the Defence Force, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, Chief of the Air Force, Air Marshal Geoff Shepherd and other senior Defence personnel.

WHEN: Friday, 3 March 2006
Media should arrive by 1.30pm for a 2:00pm start.

WHERE: RAAF Base Richmond
Percival Street, Richmond, NSW
Meeting point is the fenced car park across the road from the front gate.

Please note that photo identification is required for entry to the base.

To request helicopter access, please call Squadron Leader Mark Rowe on 02 4587 2350.

The Minister for Defence, Dr Brendan Nelson, will be available for interview following the announcement.


Could this be an actual decision on the type and numbers of the aircraft they will be getting? If so, that would be an amazingly quick process for ADF.

I thought they were gonna decide this issue next year?

 

[knightrider4]

C-17

I dont know about it's credentials but the latest issue of the magazine Australian and New Zealand Defender had an article stating the RAAF and the C-17 was a certainty it was just the ammount of airframes and whether to lease or buy outright that was to be clarified.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I thought they were gonna decide this issue next year?

Up to 4 C-17s, with the first potentially delivered late this year with the balance by mid 2008

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/NelsonMintpl.cfm?CurrentId=5449

 

[knightrider4]

C-17

I saw the pics of the USAF C-17 at Richmond it's a nice bit of kit and one that will see plenty of use I'm sure. A great acquisition for the RAAF, now if only all procurements were this quick!

 

[cherry]

Great decision, and I must agree, it would be great if all decisions could be this quick. These aircraft will be extremely handy for ADF. All that is left to be seen now is what will be happening to the C-130H. Does anyone have any info on what else was discussed or said at this media briefing?

 

[Magoo]

Great decision, and I must agree, it would be great if all decisions could be this quick. These aircraft will be extremely handy for ADF. All that is left to be seen now is what will be happening to the C-130H. Does anyone have any info on what else was discussed or said at this media briefing?

I just got back from the briefing at Richmond. The 12 C-130Hs will gradually be drawn down to six airframes from late next year. No refurbishment is planned for the remaining six, so they probably have about five years of airframe life left in them. The possibility of acquiring additional Js was mentioned, although this will likely be down the track a little, and the current Js will have their roles expanded the remaining 10-15% to include Special Forces support work.

I agree the C-17 buy is an excellent one for the entire ADF. The Minister, CDF, CAF, ACAUS, CDRALG and others were all genuinely excited about the prospect of adding the capability.

Magoo

 

[Supe]

Up to 4 C-17s, with the first potentially delivered late this year with the balance by mid 2008

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/NelsonMintpl.cfm?CurrentId=5449

So casually stated. This is an excellent development.

Is there talk of possibly acquiring more than four though? AD mentioned a scenario of 12 Hercs with 6 C17's as a mix. That's quite a bit of transport capabillity.

Edit: Pics of Globemaster


@Magoo:

How many J series do you think ADF will get?

 

[Magoo]

So casually stated. This is an excellent development.

Is there talk of possibly acquiring more than four though? AD mentioned a scenario of 12 Hercs with 6 C17's as a mix. That's quite a bit of transport capabillity.?

If we were to get six, we'd need to order them by July as Boeing needs to start wrapping up the production line after then. It's doubtful though, as government has $2bn allocated to the deal, and they're not sure whether they'll get three or four for that at the moment. Three is OK, but four is better, especially as the aircraft are built to beyond airliner standards and hence wont require any kind of deep maintenance for years yet.

@Magoo: How many J series do you think ADF will get?

No intel on that for you sorry, as it's probably still a few years out. I think it'll be a case of wait and see to how they manage with the reduced H force and then they'll order from there. At a rough guess, I'd say four more.

Magoo

 

[pepsi]

Just saw this now, i was so surprised, i wasn't even expecting it (although i have been busy lately)

Good choice, i'm happy, lol

Someone before pasted the link with pictures, the ADF site have added a 2nd gallery here :

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2006/Mar/20060303b.cfm

Its mostly officials and stuff

So this seems to be Brendon Nelson's first big thing as Defence Minister, i wonder did he have anything to do with it, i know its been known for awhile that they were choosing between the C-17 and a400m, but it just seems to have been suddenly announced, they flew a C-17 here and everything..

 

[Sea Dog]

Great news!!! At least the Oz MoD has its had screwed on right and makes the necessary acquisitions on a timely basis....unlike the cousins in old Europe.

Well done. I expect a further 2 to be purchased in the future.

p.s. Will the Aussie version have the AAR installed, or just have the extra fuel tank like the RAF?

 

[Sea Toby]

From the websites I have been reading, the C-17 building program is ending this year. If other nations like Australia wishes to purchase them, they better do it this year, there won't be a next year. I don't think America has any to spare, hopefully the funds allocated will purchase 4. More than likely when its time to replace the C-130Hs, Australia will probably purchase a few more C-130Js, since the Globemaster has four times the cargo load of a Hercules you won't need as many. The C-17s will probably be used for long range flights, and the C-130s for short range flights locally.

Since it is near the end of the line for the C-17 building program, Australia will receive these aircraft very quickly, in the next two years. Now that's a very short acquisition program, I wish all of the programs were as swift.

 

[Supe]

Well done. I expect a further 2 to be purchased in the future.

I hope so. On the surface it appears to be the Government playing the bare minimum game - again. I guess further purchases will depend on tempo and usage of the C-17's to be procured before consideration of others are purchased. Natch.

 

[Sea Dog]

From the websites I have been reading, the C-17 building program is ending this year.

That's just USAF talk.

They're going to want more, specially with the 130J just not having the "humph" necessary to do a lot of things (and Newt Gingrich no longer in power and thus not promoting a product coming out of Marietta, GA).

The USAF wanted a few more orders so that they can reduce the price and go back to Congress and ask for more.

Now if the French ever got off their ass and realize that the A400 just ain't gonna cut it....then a few more orders would come. Don't forget that it took the French over 30 years to buy 130's.