Brunei Corvettes

[Ding]

If you want a frigate, a warship that can go fast and run for days without running out of fuel, buy a frigate. If you want a fishery protection patrol vessel to spend weeks patrolling, buy an OPV. If you wish to buy a warship that can go fast and run for only a day or two before refueling, buy a corvette. Its that simple.

There are many who prefer a corvette for warship duties, and there are many who prefer an OPV for patrol duties.

Unfortunately, there are some who wish to use an OPV as a warship, or use a corvette as a patrol ship. Corvettes cost at least twice as much as an OPV, and are as much an overkill for patrol as a frigate.

i understandt this. You hit it straight on the nail... ie "If you want a fishery protection patrol vessel to spend weeks patrolling, buy an OPV" But why buy an opv based on a corvette platform and having the option to upgrade to a corvette later. Again as you said

1.If you want a fishery protection patrol vessel to spend weeks patrolling, buy an OPV

2.If you wish to buy a warship that can go fast and run for only a day or two before refueling, buy a corvette

 

[Sea Toby]

As I recall during the 1990 Desert Storm, Argentina sent one of their MEKO frigates and one of their MEKO corvettes to the Persian Gulf. While their frigate was useful to the coalition doing a variety of missions, their corvette stayed near the milk cow, needing a refueling every 2 days, and escorted a replenishment ship instead.

You'll notice that many nations of the Baltic and Mediterrean Seas have corvettes, while many nations that border the Atlantic and Pacific don't, unless they have significant islands chains to defend. Frigates are ocean going warships, corvettes aren't. OPVs on the other hand are more useful to ocean going navies than corvettes, at least they have the range to patrol their large EEZs, never mind that the corvettes are better armed.

Then there are nations similar to the Caribbean island nations, whose small populations and small EEZs allow the usage of patrol boats instead of OPVs. None of these island nations threaten the others, but they do have to patrol their EEZs if they wish to keep them.

 

[Ding]

exactly! since the RMN does not actually range the ocean, the corvettes would suit our purpose... as would light frigates (hint hint the Nakhoda Ragam Class) That would be the icing in the cake..wouldnt it?

 

[contedicavour]

exactly! since the RMN does not actually range the ocean, the corvettes would suit our purpose... as would light frigates (hint hint the Nakhoda Ragam Class) That would be the icing in the cake..wouldnt it?

Well it depends if the RMN prefers to run coastal patrols, leaving the harbours against specific threats, or if the RMN prefers longer range patrols which would last more than a few days.
In the 1st case, Malaysia should buy a sea control radar grid to be installed all along the coastline, so that corvettes would be "on call" waiting to "scramble" a bit like fighter jets, against any sort of potential threat picked up by the coastal radars.

cheers

 

[renjer]

1. for the sake of the argument, please answer this question. where were RMN capital ships during Ambalat?

2. Both TNI-AL and RMN were not practising gun boat diplomacy during Ambalat. TNI-AL deployed at least one of their capital ships there. RMN were unable to deploy their capital ships there. why? the answer is the same as the answer for question no. 1.

until somebody can answer the question no. 1. then i rest my case.

This still doesn't make it necessary for the RMN to buy the Nakhodas. Malaysia still has the time to build rather than buy which is still more beneficial. But read my post in the RMN thread and respond there please.

BTW, gunboat diplomacy is your description of the events.

 

[contedicavour]

After close inspection, the Brunei light frigates are almost clones of the Lekius, though a bit smaller. Same Sea Wolf VLS, same MM40 Exocets, same 76/62 super rapid gun, capability to operate (land & refuel) Super Lynx helos....

In terms of operational costs, the Malaysian Navy wouldn't have to spend anything to integrate the Brunei ships into its inventory and maintenance costs would be minimal.

It all comes down to (i) how much of a bargain the UK is ready to do in order to get rid of these brand new light frigates ? and (ii) is developing local defence industry more of a priority, in which case building locally more Mekos might make more sense.

cheers

 

[dreamwarrior73]

After close inspection, the Brunei light frigates are almost clones of the Lekius, though a bit smaller. Same Sea Wolf VLS, same MM40 Exocets, same 76/62 super rapid gun, capability to operate (land & refuel) Super Lynx helos....

In terms of operational costs, the Malaysian Navy wouldn't have to spend anything to integrate the Brunei ships into its inventory and maintenance costs would be minimal.

It all comes down to (i) how much of a bargain the UK is ready to do in order to get rid of these brand new light frigates ? and (ii) is developing local defence industry more of a priority, in which case building locally more Mekos might make more sense.

cheers

i couldn't agree with you more. to me it would be really good for the RMN to have these ships as the reasons you stated. RMN should allocate fund to procure these ships if they are selling at bargain price. these ships can boost the number of capital ships in RMN fleet almost overnight versus building the PV which takes years.

if you asked me. i would say do both buy these ships and proceed building the PV. as buying these ships is a short term solution in addressing the issue of shortage of capital ships in the fleet. whilst building the PV is a long term solution.

Mod edit: This rubbish gets deleted, so why bother posting it? Have a discussion with him if you want, but keep it civil. Otherwise you won't be allowed to. AD.

 

[mmmbop]

After close inspection, the Brunei light frigates are almost clones of the Lekius, though a bit smaller. Same Sea Wolf VLS, same MM40 Exocets, same 76/62 super rapid gun, capability to operate (land & refuel) Super Lynx helos....

In terms of operational costs, the Malaysian Navy wouldn't have to spend anything to integrate the Brunei ships into its inventory and maintenance costs would be minimal.

It all comes down to (i) how much of a bargain the UK is ready to do in order to get rid of these brand new light frigates ? and (ii) is developing local defence industry more of a priority, in which case building locally more Mekos might make more sense.

cheers

A mistake there..Lekius are using 57mm Bofors.but i agree that the specs is very similar.if price is reasonable i say go for it.

 

[contedicavour]

A mistake there..Lekius are using 57mm Bofors.but i agree that the specs is very similar.if price is reasonable i say go for it.

Yes you're right. I had the new Meko100s in front of me and their 76/62s
Btw happy to have at long last converted the RMN from Bofors 57mm to Oto Melara 76/62mm. I guess experience with the Laksamanas proved positive.

cheers

 

[dreamwarrior73]

Yes you're right. I had the new Meko100s in front of me and their 76/62s
Btw happy to have at long last converted the RMN from Bofors 57mm to Oto Melara 76/62mm. I guess experience with the Laksamanas proved positive.

cheers

i guessed the RMN is quite late in following the trend.

btw, the trend for MRG now is Bofors 57mm Mk 3 as being used by USN's DD(X) and LCS program as well as by USCG's Deepwater program.

my guess would be that the next batch of RMN PV will be using the Bofors 57mm Mk 3 too. whilst the next batch frigate is almost certain to mount the Bofors 57mm Mk 3 as well.

 

[contedicavour]

i guessed the RMN is quite late in following the trend.

btw, the trend for MRG now is Bofors 57mm Mk 3 as being used by USN's DD(X) and LCS program as well as by USCG's Deepwater program.

my guess would be that the next batch of RMN PV will be using the Bofors 57mm Mk 3 too. whilst the next batch frigate is almost certain to mount the Bofors 57mm Mk 3 as well.

I knew for the LCS, but the DDG-1000 will be using 155mm not 57mm ??

The 76/62 is being further updated, stealth structure, guided ammunition with GPS, and CIWS capability with RTN-30X Dardo-F illuminators.
Even if with the Mk 3 version, Bofors will be in quite a fight :duel

Recent victories of Oto Melara over Bofors : Mexico for its latest OPVs, France on Horizon and FREMM, Norway on the Nansen (ehe right next to Sweden ), Denmark on all its new construction ships, Poland on the Meko100 which are building, Turkey and Greece on their new FACs, Indonesia on the Sigma corvettes (this one to be confirmed though), Singapore on the Delta FFGs, Malaysia on the OPVs, Thailand on the new Chinese-built FFGs...
We're waiting for results on Venezuela's and Argentina's new OPVs.

Losing the US market on LCS is painful, but let's not forget that the 76mm on the OHP FFGs were built in the US under licence from Oto Melara. Much smaller margins that selling outright cannons manufactured in La Spezia.

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

Recent victories of Oto Melara over Bofors : Mexico for its latest OPVs, France on Horizon and FREMM, Norway on the Nansen (ehe right next to Sweden ), Denmark on all its new construction ships, Poland on the Meko100 which are building, Turkey and Greece on their new FACs, Indonesia on the Sigma corvettes (this one to be confirmed though), Singapore on the Delta FFGs, Malaysia on the OPVs, Thailand on the new Chinese-built FFGs...
We're waiting for results on Venezuela's and Argentina's new OPVs.

The Danish newbuilds (the frigates) will probably feature surplus 76mm/62 M/85 OTOs from 4 Flyvefisken-class vessels that are to be laid up or sold. The Flyvefisken that are to be sold, will most like be fitted with 76mm/76 M/71 OTOs that are surplus from the Willemoes-class FAC's and these will only use EO fire controls.

So no new guns will be procured, except for the possible 127mm Mk45 mod 4.

My 2 € cents

 

[contedicavour]

The Danish newbuilds (the frigates) will probably feature surplus 76mm/62 M/85 OTOs from 4 Flyvefisken-class vessels that are to be laid up or sold. The Flyvefisken that are to be sold, will most like be fitted with 76mm/76 M/71 OTOs that are surplus from the Willemoes-class FAC's and these will only use EO fire controls.

So no new guns will be procured, except for the possible 127mm Mk45 mod 4.

My 2 € cents

Doesn't that leave the Absalons with new 76mm ?
I can still take Denmark out of the list above and put the Netherlands instead (the 4 new corvettes/light frigates planned)

Long live Oto Melara

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

Doesn't that leave the Absalons with new 76mm ?
I can still take Denmark out of the list above and put the Netherlands instead (the 4 new corvettes/light frigates planned)

Long live Oto Melara

cheers

The Absalons already have 127mm Mk45 mod 4 guns. I am talking about the FFG's.

Yes, you can replace with Netherlands. I am just making sure no factual errors sneak in.

 

[contedicavour]

The Absalons already have 127mm Mk45 mod 4 guns. I am talking about the FFG's.

Yes, you can replace with Netherlands. I am just making sure no factual errors sneak in.

OK so long as no bofors steal market share on the Danish naval market

Btw I didn't know the Flykevisten numbers were being cut. That will leave only 10 right ? True, the very big FFGs, the Absalons, and the relatively unarmed Thetis (basically very big OPVs) already make for a powerful fleet, still Denmark is going a bit the way of Germany (40 FACs being replaced by 5 K130s... )

cheers

 

[dreamwarrior73]

I knew for the LCS, but the DDG-1000 will be using 155mm not 57mm ??

the DDG-1000 will be using both the 155mm AGS and Bofors 57mm Mk 3. the AGS will used as the main gun. whilst the 2 x Mk 3 will used as Closed In Gun System (CIGS). something similar to the function of Phalanx CIWS but with greater capability.

i am quite confident in Mk 3 shooting down a sea skimming SSM. but Super Rapid against a sea skimming SSM that i am quite sceptical. :

 

[Stimpy75]

i am quite confident in Mk 3 shooting down a sea skimming SSM. but Super Rapid against a sea skimming SSM that i am quite sceptical. :

and why is that?the oto melara 76/62 super rapid can shoot up to 120 rounds in the minute and the ammunition for these kind of mission are beeing developed or have been already.Remember that the oto offers greater range and greater shell power.:sniper

 

[contedicavour]

the DDG-1000 will be using both the 155mm AGS and Bofors 57mm Mk 3. the AGS will used as the main gun. whilst the 2 x Mk 3 will used as Closed In Gun System (CIGS). something similar to the function of Phalanx CIWS but with greater capability.

i am quite confident in Mk 3 shooting down a sea skimming SSM. but Super Rapid against a sea skimming SSM that i am quite sceptical. :

To put it simply, each round of 76/62 fired is equivalent to an anti-missile missile, guided by GPS so that it can intercept targets appearing on the air search radars and RTN-30X Dardo-F target illuminators.
Even before this technology (Vulcano/Strales) is operational, the Italian Navy has tested CIWS systems : the 40/70 300 rds/min versus the 76/62 SR 120 rounds/min. The larger calibre has proven it can eliminate a higher number of sea skimming missiles (empty Teseo-Mk2) in tests.
I don't know what Bofors has done as tests on its new 57mm, but our system is tried&tested and being constantly updated, specifically for CIWS.
Last but not least, when you are facing a supersonic inbound SSM such as the improved Sunburn, you'd better destroy it as far away as possible from the ship. Hence the priority we give to higher calibres.

cheers

 

[dreamwarrior73]

from the technical data that i have, Bofors outrange Oto Melara by 1 km and the weight of explosive in each round for Oto Melara is only 45 grams heavier than Bofors.

i conclude that Bofors can spit higher number of rounds at further distance than Oto Melara.

 

[contedicavour]

from the technical data that i have, Bofors outrange Oto Melara by 1 km and the weight of explosive in each round for Oto Melara is only 45 grams heavier than Bofors.

i conclude that Bofors can spit higher number of rounds at further distance than Oto Melara.

What you have (16km / 120rpm) is the data for the existing 76/62 SR.
With the Vulcano/Strales rounds undergoing testing and operational in a couple of years' time, range increases to 35km, rpm decreases to 100 rpm approx, but every single round is GPS-guided and has ailerons to be able to manoeuvre a bit like a missile and take out the incoming SSMs/ASMs.

cheers