British Army News and Discussion

[Volkodav]

FRES SV? Weight issues? A scout vehicle weighing as much as an early model T72? Wash your mouth out

FRES was the victim (in part at least) of circumstances - the program got started off right before the IED threat in theatre blossomed in the horrible way it did, and a lot of time and effort went on UOR vehicles to meet that threat. The specifications have changed several times and along the way a few twists and turns have sprang up.

The French are allegedly lending us some VBCI vehicles to trial, and have recently agreed to fit the same 40mm CTA cannon we're using in the Warrior CLIP program so you have to wonder if there's a deal in the air.

VBCI Wheeled Infantry Fighting Vehicle - Army Technology

VBCI for the FRES UT?

Thought the Piranha V was the winner there initially.

 

[Waylander]

FRES SV? Weight issues? A scout vehicle weighing as much as an early model T72? Wash your mouth out

FRES was the victim (in part at least) of circumstances - the program got started off right before the IED threat in theatre blossomed in the horrible way it did, and a lot of time and effort went on UOR vehicles to meet that threat. The specifications have changed several times and along the way a few twists and turns have sprang up.

The French are allegedly lending us some VBCI vehicles to trial, and have recently agreed to fit the same 40mm CTA cannon we're using in the Warrior CLIP program so you have to wonder if there's a deal in the air.

VBCI Wheeled Infantry Fighting Vehicle - Army Technology

Using heavy vehicles in the scouting role is nothing new. The US uses M1s and M3s and we did use Leo IIs together with Luchs scouts. But the UK is going to loose the light part of their scouting force which IMHO is bad compared to the other way around. Some smaller wheeled alternative (like the mentioned VBCI or Piranha) is highly important.

I bet that FRES SV is going to end the same way all ground vehicle procurement programmes of the UK since the Challi 2 went. Lots of money drowned for nothing to show. Except UORs the procurement of fighting vehicles in the UK is so abysmal it beggars believe.

While most of europe + the US poured billions into new vehicle programs and at least also introduced new vehicles the UK has nothing to show for the huge amount of money pumped into their own vehicle programs.

At least their helicopter force looks like a runner after a stuttering start. I wish we would have had the sense to go with Apaches instead of Tigers...

 

[StobieWan]

It's nothing new I agree, but it's odd in the way that it fits into the light/mobile concepts that FRES were plugged into initially.

FRES has been a complete buggeration from start to present and it's a shining example I chuck in the face of any army adherent when someone suggests the RN or the RAF wastes money in procurement (which they do, but fair's fair!) It's been all over the place and in the process we lost the Vickers tank factory from my neck of the woods which is hard to take.

WAH-64 had a stuttering start, with various forms of amusements like failing to get a training contract in place prior to the damned thing coming into service, meaning cabs were delivered straight to storage.However, it did land as a very modern, well specified platform with some major advantages over the stock D model.

Still leaves us stuck with an ageing and very disparate fleet of vehicles,most of which could have profitably been refurbed much sooner (CLIP for Warrior could have been much sooner I suspect) or turfed out in favour of more modern alternatives.

I'm still a bit horrified to see Scimitar pounding the roads in TES kit ..

 

[StobieWan]

VBCI for the FRES UT?

Thought the Piranha V was the winner there initially.

I'm not sure where VBCI fits into FRES - but the rumour of a loan of 20 vehicles is interesting.

 

[Volkodav]

It's nothing new I agree, but it's odd in the way that it fits into the light/mobile concepts that FRES were plugged into initially.

FRES has been a complete buggeration from start to present and it's a shining example I chuck in the face of any army adherent when someone suggests the RN or the RAF wastes money in procurement (which they do, but fair's fair!) It's been all over the place and in the process we lost the Vickers tank factory from my neck of the woods which is hard to take.

WAH-64 had a stuttering start, with various forms of amusements like failing to get a training contract in place prior to the damned thing coming into service, meaning cabs were delivered straight to storage.However, it did land as a very modern, well specified platform with some major advantages over the stock D model.

Still leaves us stuck with an ageing and very disparate fleet of vehicles,most of which could have profitably been refurbed much sooner (CLIP for Warrior could have been much sooner I suspect) or turfed out in favour of more modern alternatives.

I'm still a bit horrified to see Scimitar pounding the roads in TES kit ..

I don't understand why considering the size and weight of the FRES SV that the UK didn't just do a version of the Warrior as part of the Warrior update and then start a new project to become a replacement for the Warrior AIFV and SV down the track after the FRES UV.

 

[Waylander]

I expect this to remain a mistery for time to come.

For an IFV based recce vehicle on either uses the IFV which is already in service and with hulls being available from storage or one decides to go for a completely new IFV of which a recce version can be procured additionally.

Modernizing the remaining legacy IFV fleet AND introducing a modified new IFV based heavy recce vehicle is utter nonsense.

At least they don't plan to cut up 10 year old MBTs...oh whait...

 

[RobWilliams]

FRES SV? Weight issues? A scout vehicle weighing as much as an early model T72? Wash your mouth out

FRES was the victim (in part at least) of circumstances - the program got started off right before the IED threat in theatre blossomed in the horrible way it did, and a lot of time and effort went on UOR vehicles to meet that threat. The specifications have changed several times and along the way a few twists and turns have sprang up.

The French are allegedly lending us some VBCI vehicles to trial, and have recently agreed to fit the same 40mm CTA cannon we're using in the Warrior CLIP program so you have to wonder if there's a deal in the air.

VBCI Wheeled Infantry Fighting Vehicle - Army Technology

I thought VBCI was part of the FRES UV (AFAIK the GD ASCOD got the SV contract) tender and had - in the past - been rejected during trials?

Meh, do what you gotta do to sell some Watchkeepers I guess

 

[StobieWan]

Well, if we don't dick around a bit more, we might be dangerously close to ordering something - and that can't happen

I'm not sure where VBCI sits in the scheme of things but I'm sure we can fit in some more twists and turns while the troops rattle around in the large pile of UOR kit we've got sloshing around after the drawdown from Afghanistan

 

[Waylander]

Well it's french.

And let's be serious, no french vehicle can ever have a standard which is good enough for the blessed troops of Albion...

As we know the British troops are awash in modern wheeled AFVs apart from MRAPS...

 

[StobieWan]

No, indeed, we'll just buy American - can't do corners but hey


And as a UK resident, I'd be looking back on the long history of British engineering involved with the predecessors of this all and go "f*ck that, get me some German engineering..."

 

[Waylander]

Well, the Brits were part of the now solely dutch/german alliance which designed the Boxer. Had they stayed part of it they would have one of the most modern and capable wheeled APCs in service which due to its modular design can easily be the base for several other versions (like the command and ambulance versions already in service or the proposed IFV version).

But hey, they decided that their own way is the only way and left the project.

Not even the Americans are buying american designs these days when it comes to wheeled APCs and it's derivatives. Their Strykers and LAVs are based on the Swiss Piranha platform. Which IMO is a very nice platform, especially in it's newest iterations.

With the Boxer, Piranha, VBCI and Patria AMV they have so many possible platforms available. One of them has to fit mostly.

And after they killed Vickers they also have to go for a foreign design when it comes to heavy tracked vehicles. Although the choosing the CV90 for FRES SV alone seems weird as discussed becore.

 

[RobWilliams]

GD's ASCOD got picked for FRES SV over BAE's CV90

WRT FRES UV, the competitors are the Boxer, Pirahna and VBCI. The Pirahna was selected in 2008 just before the economy SNAFU and was subsequently put on hold, now we're hearing that the British Army is trialling VBCI which - apparently in 2008 - wasn't up to scratch.

However it's been indicated if we buy VBCI then the French will buy 30-odd Watchkeeper UAVs in response, factor that in with the whole 'interoperability with the French under the Lancaster House agreements' etc then it's a nice little PR pick.

 

[Waylander]

Ah right, my mistake, ASCOD and not CV90. The decision to choose the FRES SV platform first while it is not the major version of the whole tracked side of FRES remains weird.

 

[Volkodav]

I think the issue was the UV selection, apart from it coinciding with the GEC, also came at the same time as the UOR MRAPs procured to counter the IED threat which overlapped with some mission sets. From memory there were concerns the selected Piranha V did not offer sufficient protection from IEDs.

The SV was brought forward in part because the heavy use in Afghanistan, in particular with bar armour installed, was wearing out the Scimitar at an accelerated rate. Although with the re-hulled Scimitar Mk II also procured under UOR makes you wonder why the SV was proceeded with as well.

 

[StobieWan]

Yeah- just stick CTA on Scimitar and you're done.

I was reading about the rehull program and wonder at the lengths to they went to regarding the whole thing.

 

[Volkodav]

Yeah- just stick CTA on Scimitar and you're done.

I was reading about the rehull program and wonder at the lengths to they went to regarding the whole thing.

I was wondering the same thing and found this, very informative

The Old Made New – CVR(T) MkII – Scimitar Mk2 | Rokuth's Blog

 

[StobieWan]

Blimey - so, not even a new-same-as-before-hull, we're talking "brand new, just like what the Stormer has.." hull - with a rear hatch - gosh, that is clever.

I'm sold, stick CTA in there and call it done. We can reconvene in fifteen years or so.

 

[Volkodav]

I had heard something about the new hull but had assumed it was just a Spartan hull for the extra space, I had no idea about the new alloy, seating, mine protection etc. Nice bit of kit that leaves me wondering why the UK keeps dumping their own products in favour of imported and modified ones. I can understand it if you don't have anything comparable but when you have good, exportable stuff why not use it yourselves?

 

[Jeneral2885]

Army 2020: The good parts

There are some good parts of it such as Artillery. The Exactor missile will be brought into the core programme and the air defence units will grow in the regular and reserve forces.

 

[RobWilliams]

Although Rapier units were air deployable whereas CAMM trucks will need to be brought ashore via an LCU. Although i'd like to think the replacement system is much more capable, more capable enough to make up for it.