British Army News and Discussion

[ADMk2]

The UK have requested 500 AGM-114N4/P4 Hellfire missiles for USD $95m.

I assumed these would be primarily for WAH-64 Apache, so I posted here, however they will probably be used on Reaper too...

http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2013/UK_13-16.pdf

 

[RobWilliams]

They get heavy usage, in Damien Lewis' book "Apache Dawn" he provides a tally of the munitions used by the squadron (662 Sqdn AAC, if anyone's interested) during May - August 2007

• 18,500 30mm
• 550 rockets (CRV-7)
• 72 Hellfire
• 34 flares in anger

That's one squadron over a period of 4 months, who's aircrew believe that their experiences aren't exactly 'above and beyond' what any of the other pilots experienced.

If anyone's confused about the "in anger" part on the flares, it's due to when the aircraft went "Winchester" where all their munitions are used up and the last resort until other air support arrives was to do low and fast runs deploying flares to try and suppress hostile movement.

 

[CheeZe]

Interesting. That would make each individual regiment more tactically flexible with AS90s and GMLRS.

Looking at the OP, I assume that 1st Armoured Div. is remaining as it is in structure and organization? You didn't make any mention of its future structure under 2020.

IIRC, the total number of active personnel (excluding TA) under Army 2020 would ~89,000, yeah? Still a force to be reckoned with, despite the cuts.

 

[RobWilliams]

Indeed, the original plan was that artillery would fall under "Force troops" and would be supplied as needed, so it's good to actually get some structure.

The overall unit for the armoured reaction force is 3 Mechanised division, it was a correction.

I've outlined the structure of the deployable armoured brigades which can be deployed.

Closer to 82,000 in reality.

 

[Kampgruppe1970]

The biggest problem facing the UK/British army is not budget cuts but the vote on Independence in 2014 in Scotland, the UK would lose around 9% of its military hardware (as Scottish taxpayers paid for it) it would also have to remove its nuclear deterrent from Scotland as Scotland is anti nuclear and never wanted the nukes in Scotland in the first place and the Scottish units would be the core of the Scottish defence force and the bulk of what is left of the British would re-organise itself

 

[StobieWan]

Speaking as someone with Scots blood on both sides of their family but living and working in England, and regarding myself as a UK citizen..bollocks..

Facts - as of now, there are more *English* voters in favour of Scottish independence than the Scots. I have one stipulation, if they go, they *never* return...


In terms of how Scots independence proceeds, I suspect you'll find the SNP a bit more easy going with the deterrent. Here's why - they want (need) to retain the Faslane base - and the construction yards on the Clyde are major employers in Scotland.

The SNP is pursuing a frankly fairy tale situation in which they get to retain all the RAF bases and the RN bases, but get to kick out the nuclear stuff.

It's not going to work like that...

 

[Kampgruppe1970]

Speaking as someone with Scots blood on both sides of their family but living and working in England, and regarding myself as a UK citizen..bollocks..

Facts - as of now, there are more *English* voters in favour of Scottish independence than the Scots. I have one stipulation, if they go, they *never* return...


In terms of how Scots independence proceeds, I suspect you'll find the SNP a bit more easy going with the deterrent. Here's why - they want (need) to retain the Faslane base - and the construction yards on the Clyde are major employers in Scotland.

The SNP is pursuing a frankly fairy tale situation in which they get to retain all the RAF bases and the RN bases, but get to kick out the nuclear stuff.

It's not going to work like that...

Hi I agree Stobie if we decide to vote yes then we can't go back cap in hand, but I believe a independent Scotland can be a success and a damn good neighbour instead being a disgruntled partner within the union. No political party would get in power in Scotland advocating keeping trident in Scotland the body of the realm/kirk don't want them or nuclear energy for that matter.
The Scottish government (SNP) is advocating following the Danish defence force as a template for a future SDF should we vote yes, we wouldn't be starting with a blank piece of paper as I said we would be entitled to at least 9% of the UK military hardware we make up 8.4% of the UK and 9.9% of UK taxes or just under £4 billion a year towards UK military budget, but who is to say that Labour don't win the first election in Scotland after independence they might decide keeping our defence spending at that level or more.

as for the shipyards I agree we will need them to build more ships as we have over 800 islands and north seal oil to protect also the vast oil and gas reserves off the west coast of Scotland still to be tapped UK estimates from the mid 1990s that they dwarf the reserves in the north sea at it's peak so we will need a substantial navy

 

[RobWilliams]

Some bits of recent news

British Army ceases flying operations in Germany, 1 Regt and 9 Regt AAC are to combine. Together they provide 5 squadrons and that will still be the case, 4 frontline and 1 OCU. First squadron from 1 Regt is due at RNAS Yeovilton next year to begin conversion to the Wildcat. 30 examples to be procured.

British Army helicopters leave Germany - IHS Jane's 360

UK orders 200 more Starstreak missiles from Thales

UK To Purchase 200 StarStreak Missiles From Thales UK | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[greeners29]

Hi I agree Stobie if we decide to vote yes then we can't go back cap in hand, but I believe a independent Scotland can be a success and a damn good neighbour instead being a disgruntled partner within the union. No political party would get in power in Scotland advocating keeping trident in Scotland the body of the realm/kirk don't want them or nuclear energy for that matter.
The Scottish government (SNP) is advocating following the Danish defence force as a template for a future SDF should we vote yes, we wouldn't be starting with a blank piece of paper as I said we would be entitled to at least 9% of the UK military hardware we make up 8.4% of the UK and 9.9% of UK taxes or just under £4 billion a year towards UK military budget, but who is to say that Labour don't win the first election in Scotland after independence they might decide keeping our defence spending at that level or more.

as for the shipyards I agree we will need them to build more ships as we have over 800 islands and north seal oil to protect also the vast oil and gas reserves off the west coast of Scotland still to be tapped UK estimates from the mid 1990s that they dwarf the reserves in the north sea at it's peak so we will need a substantial navy

Kampgruppe... I am not sure how the arms transfer would work. Do you think you would take a percentage of hardware or reduce your part of the national debt (RBS cost us a fortune) instead?

The problem with taking hardware is what hardware would you take? There is no way Westminster will give up anything worth keeping and they are more likely to try to pass off systems that we no longer want. I am sure there will be some Challengers 2's on offer or even type 42's/23's.

What kit would you want to see an independent Scotland take?


Personally, I think the Scots voting for independence is like turkey's voting for xmas but that's just my view. Living in Wales, I would imagine we would benefit more than anywhere if you leave the union as new naval basis will be needed and Westminster would want to keep the Welsh onside rather than risk them going for independence (not that that would ever happen).

How do you see the split in Scotland at the moment, is independence likely to happen or are the SNP pissing in the wind?

 

[RobWilliams]

3 PARA have been jumping in Kenya for the first time in a decade (jumping into Kenya, not jumping full stop) from a height of 800 feet.

3 PARA parachutes into Kenya | British Forces News

3 PARA is a battalion of the Parachute Regiment, ~600 blokes. They and their sister unit (2 PARA) rotate as lead high readiness airbourne battalion forming the core of the lead airbourne battlegroup alongside a regiment of AAC WAH-64's.

 

[StobieWan]

Hi I agree Stobie if we decide to vote yes then we can't go back cap in hand, but I believe a independent Scotland can be a success and a damn good neighbour instead being a disgruntled partner within the union. No political party would get in power in Scotland advocating keeping trident in Scotland the body of the realm/kirk don't want them or nuclear energy for that matter.
The Scottish government (SNP) is advocating following the Danish defence force as a template for a future SDF should we vote yes, we wouldn't be starting with a blank piece of paper as I said we would be entitled to at least 9% of the UK military hardware we make up 8.4% of the UK and 9.9% of UK taxes or just under £4 billion a year towards UK military budget, but who is to say that Labour don't win the first election in Scotland after independence they might decide keeping our defence spending at that level or more.

as for the shipyards I agree we will need them to build more ships as we have over 800 islands and north seal oil to protect also the vast oil and gas reserves off the west coast of Scotland still to be tapped UK estimates from the mid 1990s that they dwarf the reserves in the north sea at it's peak so we will need a substantial navy

Problem being two fold, primarily that the assets don't break down particularly well for a country with the budget and ambitions of an independent Scotland. I remain ticked off at the SNP for their analysis that anything stationed outside the Scottish borders is somehow not defending Scotland - it'd be like me complaining I don't have a Cr2 at the end of the street (probably just as well, parking is bad enough as it is)

The recent white paper indicates they're not taking any heavy units, which is sensible enough given how expensive they'd be to run and the lack of any lift assets detailed.

So, presumably they'd be rummaging around in the protected vehicle range for light troop transport, which would plug into their stated ambition of contributing towards international peace keeping efforts (and that can be a cash earner from the UN, I know Pakistan and some African forces raise dedicated units)

I'll leave the analysis of the sea and air stuff for another thread.

 

[Astute]

Hi
Just an opinion but the SNP live on a different planet , they have no understanding of defence matters and have little to no interest in learning how things work , a defence budget of £2.5b 15,000 total armed forces personnel plus a few reserves most of that number will be in support roles leaving a few for operations which will probably be the odd peace keeping support roles to keep a little credibility the rest on guard duty to impress tourist , the few ships they say they would want would basically form a coast guard and I bet most of the larger units eg frigates would be kept in port , never a navy ,,,,,,
Yes a Independant Scotland is entitled to its share of military equipment but as rob said they are not interested in heavy stuff eg challanger 2 just light from what I've heard , they must know how much these things cost to keep in service .
The British defence budget as it stands today is £34b and Scotland as benefited just as much as the rest of the uk , to be honest if Scotland did decide to leave they are also untitled to their cut of the national debt which would be around £100b .
Just realised this subject might be already covered in a different thread

 

[StobieWan]

It is, there's a separate thread for Scottish Independence in another forum.


But yes, the SNP have little interest in defence - as do their core voters.

 

[Blackshoe]

So, presumably they'd be rummaging around in the protected vehicle range for light troop transport, which would plug into their stated ambition of contributing towards international peace keeping efforts (and that can be a cash earner from the UN, I know Pakistan and some African forces raise dedicated units)

The US has about a billion* up-armored HMMWVs and MRAPs (in many different varieties!) from the drawdown that it probably would be willing to offer them, pretty cheap, too. Personally, I wouldn't buy them if offered (maybe the MRAPs), but I am not now nor will I ever be an SNP decision-maker, either.

*sarcastic number)

 

[gf0012-aust]

The US has about a billion* up-armored HMMWVs and MRAPs (in many different varieties!) from the drawdown that it probably would be willing to offer them, pretty cheap, too. Personally, I wouldn't buy them if offered (maybe the MRAPs), but I am not now nor will I ever be an SNP decision-maker, either.

*sarcastic number)

They're basically giving the MRAPs away as the cost to bring them home is an eyebrow lifter.

I had heard that there was also consideration to issuing destruction orders on some as unless they were going to friendlies, they didn't want the chinese/russians and any other country with dubious IP management getting hold of them by proxy.

They definitely don't want to bring them all back - and there are quite a few US greenies (army/usmc) who want to get rid of any equipment that smells of mootwah so that they can "get back" to fighting and preparing for the big war.

 

[RobWilliams]

With the UK doing the exact opposite.

We've forked out a lot of money for MRAPs as an UOR for Herrick (Jackal, Mastiff, Ridgback, Wolfhound & Foxhound), so we've done the cost benefit analysis and worked out that plenty of those are still good and will form the core of the British Army's Adaptable Force.

Reaction force - 3 battalions of heavily protected mobile infantry in 14 Mastiffs per battalion per brigade.

Adaptable force - 3 light cavalry regiments with 3 squadrons of 16 Jackals per squadron
- 3 lightly protected mobile infantry battalions with Foxhounds.

Still, not poo-pooing UOR kit, that's what's funding our Reapers . . . .

 

[harryriedl]

They're basically giving the MRAPs away as the cost to bring them home is an eyebrow lifter.

I had heard that there was also consideration to issuing destruction orders on some as unless they were going to friendlies, they didn't want the chinese/russians and any other country with dubious IP management getting hold of them by proxy.

They definitely don't want to bring them all back - and there are quite a few US greenies (army/usmc) who want to get rid of any equipment that smells of mootwah so that they can "get back" to fighting and preparing for the big war.

What out of curiosity did they not want the Russians or Chinese can't be the design itself as its v-hulls are basic especially the Naviestar MRAPS are built of truck chassis. I struggling to think what benefit from the MRAPS they would gain other than a load of old hulls.

 

[StobieWan]

With the UK doing the exact opposite.

We've forked out a lot of money for MRAPs as an UOR for Herrick (Jackal, Mastiff, Ridgback, Wolfhound & Foxhound), so we've done the cost benefit analysis and worked out that plenty of those are still good and will form the core of the British Army's Adaptable Force.

Reaction force - 3 battalions of heavily protected mobile infantry in 14 Mastiffs per battalion per brigade.

Adaptable force - 3 light cavalry regiments with 3 squadrons of 16 Jackals per squadron
- 3 lightly protected mobile infantry battalions with Foxhounds.

Still, not poo-pooing UOR kit, that's what's funding our Reapers . . . .

I'd say that was just us trying to make lemonade from a bumper lemon crop - we are leaving some stuff behind (or gifting it) but given that the UOR budget has just about consumed FRES, best we pick through the stuff we got and put it to good use.

 

[RobWilliams]

Indeed, just found it funny considering that the US was trying to work out why not to bring back as much of their kit and it's making up the bones of our future ground forces.

IMO we've got some bloody good kit (the Jackal is a personal favourite of mine) and glad it's being brought into the core budget. Plenty of people wanted the Warthog to be brought into 3 Commando Brigate to replace the Viking, but now instead it's being used to re-equip the 2 Royal Artillery regiments (32 Regt & 47 Regt) to "support UAV operations."

Quite what that means I don't know, operating Desert Hawk III's from the vehicle? It's a more tactical UAV (15 miles from the control unit IIRC) so would be more suited to such a vehicle for deployment.

 

[bdique]

Indeed, just found it funny considering that the US was trying to work out why not to bring back as much of their kit and it's making up the bones of our future ground forces.

IMO we've got some bloody good kit (the Jackal is a personal favourite of mine) and glad it's being brought into the core budget. Plenty of people wanted the Warthog to be brought into 3 Commando Brigate to replace the Viking, but now instead it's being used to re-equip the 2 Royal Artillery regiments (32 Regt & 47 Regt) to "support UAV operations."

Quite what that means I don't know, operating Desert Hawk III's from the vehicle? It's a more tactical UAV (15 miles from the control unit IIRC) so would be more suited to such a vehicle for deployment.

Perhaps they were referring to this?
Senang Diri: RSAF Open House 2011: Republic of Singapore Air Force UAV Command unveils new Bronco variant for UAV command and control; armoured vehicle enhances survivability and mobility

Would be interesting as the vehicle is a workhorse battlefield utility vehicle already in the SAF, with a wide array of functions. Besides the UAV control function it also functions as an ammo resupply vehicle for artillery units, so maybe we might see that variant of the Warthog too?