British Army Discussions and Updates

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riksavage

Banned Member
It will be interesting to see what the new 2-billion pound contract awarded to BAE for ammunition brings to the equation. This deal may delay the need to replace the Challenger main armament in the foreseeable future, if, and only if, BAE's upgraded facilities will be able to produce ammunition for the existing L30A1 tank gun (APFSDS -CHARM 3, HESH & smoke). Priority can then be given to the planned Warrior upgrade and FRES.

I not also that BAE has been awarded another 4-million to build a full prototype of a Naval AS90 gun for possible retrofitting on board the T45 following earlier trials, thus standardisng the UK ammo production to 155mm for land and sea fire support - makes perfect sense.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ontract-05047/
 
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2S1

Banned Member
It will be interesting to see what the new 2-billion pound contract awarded to BAE for ammunition brings to the equation. This deal may delay the need to replace the Challenger main armament in the forceable future, if, and only if, BAE's upgraded facilities will be able to produce ammunition for the existing L30A1 tank gun (APFSDS -CHARM 3, HESH & smoke). Priority can then be given to the planned Warrior upgrade and FRES.

I not also that BAE has been awarded another 4-million to build a full prototype of a Naval AS90 gun for possible retrofitting on board the T45 following earlier trials, thus standardisng the UK ammo production to 155mm for land and sea fire support - makes perfect sense.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/MASS-for-Effect-The-UKs-Long-Term-Ammo-Contract-05047/

According to Jane's, MoD has already shelved Chally 2's L55 main rearmament. FRES - what a joke that is, we can't select the AFV we want because we pulled out of Boxer.

AS90, wouldn't be bad if the GPS aiming system worked.
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
I was under the impression the only real issues with the AS90 maritime adaptation was dealing with the additional recoil and subsequent impact upon the structure of the vessel, and twin cycle loading to deal with bagged charges. The latter has been solved (I believe) by designing a new fixed 155mm shell / charge combination and breach similar to the current 4.5inch gun. Never heard anything about issues with the GPS?
 
Not very many, I'm afraid - 385 Challenger 2's. Although there have been media reports (not sure how true, but I wouldn't be surprised) that one third of them are not operational due to shortages of spare parts. The original intention was to order 800 Challenger 2, but this was reduced to 385 as part of defence cuts.

This labour goverment sold the UK's inventory of Challenger 1's (approx 400) to Jordan.
In the opinion of some expert are these 385 or less MBT,s enough to cover the defence needs of the UK ??
 

2S1

Banned Member
In the opinion of some expert are these 385 or less MBT,s enough to cover the defence needs of the UK ??
Overlander. Back in the early 1980s, we had over 800 Chieftain tanks deployed to face the Soviet threat in Central Europe. I'd trade them all for 100 Chally 2.

Unless Putin and his current mob want to foolishly try that again; I'd further cut our MBT numbers and give the money saved to the true strength of the British Army; its Infantry.

From Korea to Suez, Aden to Northern Ireland, Falklands and Iraq to Afghanistan; the British infantryman has proved his worth time and time again despite lousy kit, inpet leadership and criminal after-benefits of service.

If getting rid of 150 Chally 2s changes all that, I'd be all for it.
 

Lopex

New Member
Nothing beats the sound of the CR2. The AS90 is louder but the pressure wave is not even close!

I take it the remote is the GPMG?

Why is the coax never bore sighted? It always amazed me the number of shots it took them to his a target with the coax. Is was no surprise to me when we had friendlies killed with this weapon.

You would spend hours getting the main armament spot on but were never asked to correct the coax?

Maybe this has changed since I left the army as a CR2 tech?

I think we should have the remote with a 50 cal like every other army.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Nothing beats the sound of the CR2. The AS90 is louder but the pressure wave is not even close!

I take it the remote is the GPMG?

Why is the coax never bore sighted? It always amazed me the number of shots it took them to his a target with the coax. Is was no surprise to me when we had friendlies killed with this weapon.

You would spend hours getting the main armament spot on but were never asked to correct the coax?

Maybe this has changed since I left the army as a CR2 tech?

I think we should have the remote with a 50 cal like every other army.

The reason why a coax is not boresighted on a tank is because it is deemed a area suppression weapon, it is not designed for pin point accuracy, just walk the rounds in if needed to the target by observing your tracer rounds.

You guys have actually tested Crowes with M2 50 cals on Challey 2 also.
 

Lopex

New Member
Is the remote weapon system used via the GPS/CPS like the main gun or is it still one of the loaders jobs?
 

Lopex

New Member
RADREN Cannon

Would like to know how useful the weapon has been in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. We are still using an unstabilized semi automatic cannon while the rest of the world are using stabilized auto cannons.

Does the RARDEN have any advantages over the more modern weapons on IFVs?

Any news on the long awaited replacement for the RARDEN?
 
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V4.SKUNK

New Member
The following video shows Challenger 2 live firing in Iraq this month. Interesting to note all have now been upgraded with new reactive / bar-armour, ECM kits and remote firing stations. The one advantage of the UOR system is once a decision is made upgrades arrive in theatre pretty quickly without having to wait years whilst the bureaucrats argue over budgets.

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Video/ScotsDgHaveABlastInBasra.htm
These upgrades have been around a little over a year. CR2 doesn't use reactive armour any more though, it got replaced with passive armour (Dorchester), as you see the front end is different.

EDIT:
Lopex
The Rarden has no advantage over an auto cannon, it can't even fire 50-60 rounds with out over heating...The infantry will like Warrior when it gets a 40mm with a new turret though.
 

Lopex

New Member
These upgrades have been around a little over a year. CR2 doesn't use reactive armour any more though, it got replaced with passive armour (Dorchester), as you see the front end is different.

EDIT:
Lopex
The Rarden has no advantage over an auto cannon, it can't even fire 50-60 rounds with out over heating...The infantry will like Warrior when it gets a 40mm with a new turret though.

The warrior was a very popular vehicle with the mechanics. Most agreed it was the most reliable vehicle in the British Army. Does the artillery reconnaissance variant or the C&C variants have a stabilized turret?

Does anyone know how many CR2 are left in Iraq? Maybe a few might be off to Helmand when we finally pull out of Iraq.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
With current credit crunch biting hard and increasing UOR expenditure I believe we will now finally witness the death of FRES before Christmas for the following reasons:

1. The operational suitability of expensive wheeled vehicles over tracked is now being questioned based on continued experience in Afghanistan (Canadian experiences with the LAV), and

2. The introduction of new / upgraded wheeled / tracked vehicles: Cougars, Ridgebacks, Warthogs, Bulldogs et al in 2009 will provide adequate MARP wheeled and tracked vehicles for operational duty in the immediate future.

I now believe the UK will only continue with a recce replacement for CVRT, which will be tracked and fitted with the same turret proposed for the Warrior upgrade. This will be pushed forward to ensure we have a common weapons fit for both improved Warrior and a replacement CVRT.

With what's been happening in A-Stan and Iraq ( increasingly sophisticated IED attacks) the loss of a wheeled high-end FRES vehicle will not be a total disaster. The MARP vehicles now on order will provide adequate protection.

I would much rather see limited money spent on new tracked armoured vehicles, which can operate in all terrains and provide support in the event a full amroured brigade is required in the future along side Chally II, AS90 & MLRS.
 

winnyfield

New Member
Would like to know how useful the weapon has been in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. We are still using an unstabilized semi automatic cannon while the rest of the world are using stabilized auto cannons.

Does the RARDEN have any advantages over the more modern weapons on IFVs?

Any news on the long awaited replacement for the RARDEN?
A 40mm 'telescoped' round was selected a while ago. With fiscal problems, wouldn't be surprised if it gets the cut. Interestingly the RN went with a 30mm Bushmaster for their new boats, it's also 40mm telescope compatible.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Certain contracts are carved in stone, I understand the Warrior Turret (40mm or 30mm) is now a priority. Also the Defence Minister has just confirmed the ordering of 62 Future Lynx (originally 70 were planned) for Army / Navy.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
A 40mm 'telescoped' round was selected a while ago. With fiscal problems, wouldn't be surprised if it gets the cut. Interestingly the RN went with a 30mm Bushmaster for their new boats, it's also 40mm telescope compatible.
The RN uses the The MSI DS30 30mm gun mount, which is compatible with a small range of guns. Up to now, the RN, has used the Oerlikon KCB 30mm - DS30B, but these are now being replaced on some existing ships (Type 23 frigates) by the DS30 Mk 2, with a 30mm Bushmaster.

MSI makes no claim of compatibility with the 40mm CTWS. See their website here.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The 40mm (CTWS) has already been selected for Warrior and the FRES Scout Replacement. What has not been decided yet is who will build the host turret. The scout chassis is rumoured to be either the ASCOD2 or CV90. Not sure which of the two offers the best solution, but BAE will be lobbying hard for the latter.

A second batch of 400 FV432 Mk3's has now been ordered to compliment the original 500 Bulldogs already in service. The Bulldog is ideally suited to perform the battlefield taxi role in environments where the wheeled Mastiff's and Ridgebacks can't venture. Again making use of these upgraded war-horses takes the pressure off the MOD.

I have a feeling that in the long run the decision not to spend billions on a medium weight wheeled vehicle will not be regretted. With the advent of all rubber track systems, the life-cycle and fatigue advantages of wheeled vehicles is substantially eroded .
 

outsider

New Member
I have a feeling that in the long run the decision not to spend billions on a medium weight wheeled vehicle will not be regretted. With the advent of all rubber track systems, the life-cycle and fatigue advantages of wheeled vehicles is substantially eroded .
The UK MOD has only postponed the introduction of wheeled apc's. They have brought forward the tracked scout vehicle in the interim. The MOD has not announced a policy shift away from wheeled to tracked vehicles. Unless a change of policy is announced, their intention to go with wheeled vehicles for the bulk of their future armoured force still stands.
 

outsider

New Member
U.K. May Lose Tank-Making Capability on Order Delay (Update1)
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http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=arl6dXpmMt00&refer=europe

By Sabine Pirone

Dec. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Britain, where the tank was invented during World War I, may be unable to build armored vehicles after BAE Systems Plc said it can’t rule out closing factories in response to government spending cuts.

BAE, Europe’s biggest defense contractor, will review the future of its Land Systems unit, the U.K.’s only tank manufacturer, after the decision to freeze a 16 billion-pound ($24 billion) truck order, Mike Sweeney, a spokesman for the London-based company, said today by telephone.

“If the government wants an indigenous armored-vehicle capability in the U.K. they need to buy something soon from BAE,” said Nick Cunningham, a defense and aerospace analyst at Evolution Securities in London. “Otherwise BAE will have to restructure and scale back its manufacturing business, which could even include selling it or closing it down.”

The U.K. defense ministry scrapped an order for as many as 2,000 armored utility vehicles on Dec. 11 as it diverted spending to the war in Afghanistan. BAE had been counting on being awarded the contract to sustain manufacturing at the Land Systems unit. Britain introduced the world’s first tank at the Battle of the Somme in 1916, and its most recent, the Challenger 2, was built by BAE until 2002 and is in service in Iraq.

“We will clearly have to consider what this means for the size and shape of the Land Systems business in the near future,” BAE’s Sweeney said. The company said it can’t rule out U.K. plant closures and job cuts.

Skills to ‘Bash Metal’

“We will retain the skills base to bash metal into tanks, but the question is, what key capabilities will be retained,” said Bernard Jenkin, a Conservative party lawmaker who sits on Parliament’s defense committee. “I would think the next- generation battle tank will be a multinational endeavor.”

The Ministry of Defence didn’t immediately respond to voice- mail messages by Bloomberg seeking comment.

Land Systems UK, which employs 2,000 people at 10 main plants, was a frontrunner to win a contract to build a version of General Dynamics Corp.’s Piranha V, which had been selected to fulfill the utility-vehicle role in the Ministry of Defence’s Future Rapid Effects System program.

Following last week’s decision to withdraw the Piranha from its provisional preferred bidder status, the defense ministry also postponed the purchase of two aircraft carriers and scaled back a helicopter order. The ministry said it will refocus the FRES program on Scout tracked vehicles. While BAE is bidding to build the Scout, the equipment won’t enter service until 2013 at the earliest.

200 Job Cuts

Land Systems said last month it would cut as many as 200 jobs as earlier delays to Britain’s purchase of fighting vehicles left the unit reliant on a handful of models.

Production work has dwindled to a handful of soon-to-be- completed models, including the Pinzgauer all-terrain truck and Terrier general support engineer vehicle, plus an unspecified project for a Middle Eastern client.

In the absence of new orders, that will leave only upgrade and integration work on models such as the AS90 self-propelled howitzer, FV430 armored personnel carrier, Titan bridge-laying vehicle and Panther command-and-liaison vehicle, plus a possible new turret for the Warrior tracked vehicle.

BAE spokesman Sweeney said that with the Piranha order canceled and the bulk of value in modern military vehicles coming from mission systems and subsystems such as electronics, weapons and armor, the company will inevitably shift focus away from new production if orders aren’t forthcoming.

Systems Integration

“We are already seeing an increased emphasis on systems integration as military vehicles become more complex and this is likely to continue,” he said.

“It is of course important that the Ministry of Defence now moves swiftly to outline the future and the next steps in a timely manner, so that industry can manage and retain its skills and the soldiers can get the best vehicle when they need it,” General Dynamics spokesman Tom Griffin said in an e-mailed statement today.

General Dynamics will have an opportunity to compete in any future Utility Vehicle upgrade, the Ministry of Defence said in a statement last week. The company employs about 1,700 people in the U.K. and is the Bowman prime contractor for integrating the current British Army fleet with the tactical communications systems.

To contact the reporter on this story: Sabine Pirone in London at [email protected]

Last Updated: December 15, 2008 13:19 EST
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Final confirmation posted on the MOD website that the contract for Warthog has been awarded to Singapore Technologies, deliveries start next year.

The Vikings will return to Blighty and been used for training (imagine a few will end up in Norway and maybe down South in the Falklands). Once the Warthogs arrive in the UK they will be up-armoured, fitted with a protected weapon station and ECM equipment.

Well done ST, hopefully we will see other users follow the UK's lead (Canada and selected Nordic Countries).

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/TheWarthogIsOnItsWay.htm
 
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