Breach of challenger 2 armour.....

jaffo4011

New Member
today,in basra the armour of a challenger 2 has,apparently been breached by a roadside bomb for the first time injuring the driver.
firstly how has the challenger2 been able to withstand such attacks for such a long time whilst the abraams hasnt and secondly what might have been different about this incident to cause the breach?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What could be different to the roadside bombs used before...more explosives.

If you look at the amount of roadside bombs used against the americans and compare it with the amount used against the brits you see that it is normal.

The possibility of an Abrams being hit by an IED is much bigger just due to much more US troops in theater and a much bigger area of operations.

And till now Abrams performed very well in protecting their crews. The dead and injured Abrams crews are on the low end of the combat forces deployed.

Just as an example. Just recently one US engineer bn cleared their 500th IED. They are in theater for just one month. And they are just one bn. Now you can imagine the amount of IEDs with which the US troops are confronted.
That there are sometimes some big IEDs over there (Like the one made of three 152mm arty grenades) which are big enough to seriously damage a MBT.

I don't want to rule out that the Challi 2 might be better protected against mines/IEDs but I wanted to put this incident into perspective. :)
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I have no idea.
But my bets are on an AT mine, a really big conventional IED (Like the mentioned arty grenades) or an improvised shaped charge bomb.

My best wishes to the wounded crewmans.:(
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I have no idea.
But my bets are on an AT mine, a really big conventional IED (Like the mentioned arty grenades) or an improvised shaped charge bomb.

My best wishes to the wounded crewmans.:(
That's what they're saying, a large shaped charge exploded under the tank. The driver has lost a leg, poor bugger. One other crewman slightly injured.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Apparently the shaped charge was precision made and deployed to attack the weaker underbelly of the tank. The fact that only the driver was seriously injured reflects the excellent armoring of the CH2, which I understand is still the most heavily armored tank in its class.

The device ‘apparently’ shows the hallmarks of outside expertise (Iran), and the design probably leveraged heavily off the experience and successes of Iranian sponsored devices used against Israeli tanks in the recent exchanges in Lebanon (14 tanks lost).
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That's what they're saying, a large shaped charge exploded under the tank. The driver has lost a leg, poor bugger. One other crewman slightly injured.
Challenger 2 tank hit in roadside blast


By Martin Beckford, UK Daily Telegraph

Last Updated: 6:33pm BST 23/04/2007

A hostile reception is guaranteed for Harry

A heavily armoured British tank has been badly damaged for the first time by a roadside bomb in Iraq.


Challenger 2 tanks on patrol in Basra

The Challenger 2, a 62-ton vehicle which is among the best-protected tanks in the world, was hit by the device during a routine patrol in Basra. Its driver is thought to have lost both legs during the attack and has been flown back to Britain for medical treatment, while another member of the crew suffered minor injuries.

The attack on the tank was followed by the death of another British soldier today in Basra. The soldier from the 2nd Battalion The Duke of Lancaster's Regiment was killed by small arms fire while providing top cover protection for a Warrior armoured vehicle on a routine patrol in the Al Ashar district of central Basra.

The Challenger 2 was on patrol in the Hyall Shuala area of western Basra when it was struck by the roadside bomb on April 6, the day after four British soldiers were killed when their Warrior armoured vehicle was blown up.

It was damaged by an Improvised Explosive Device (IED) laid by insurgents, leaving its driver critically wounded and causing minor injuries to another member of the crew.

A Ministry of Defence spokesman confirmed last night: “This was the first successful attack on a Challenger 2, it’s the first bomb to have damaged it.

“A soldier was very seriously injured. He has been returned to the UK and is receiving treatment. We won’t comment on his injuries.

“Of the other three crew, one received minor injuries.”

But the MoD denied the tank had been destroyed and insisted it would return to service. The spokesman said: “The vehicle wasn’t destroyed. It is being repaired.”

He also denied that the Challenger 2, the British Army’s main battle tank, had been damaged by a new type of “shaped charge” IED, which concentrates the force of an explosion.

The spokesman said: “It is not some sort of escalation. We would dispute the fact that it’s a new bomb."

“It was an improved explosive device and the technology is at least 50 or 60 years old.” He added: “No one has ever said the Challenger 2 tank is inpenetrable. We’ve been at pains to point out a big enough bomb will take out any vehicle. A big enough bomb will go through any armour.”

But Professor Michael Clarke, of the Defence Studies department at King’s College London, claimed the damage to the Challenger 2 was “worrying” as its armour is usually “inviolable”.

He said: “Most of the things on a battlefield are not much of a threat to a tank, usually.

“This is worrying, because if there are many of these sorts of very heavy penetrative IEDs around in the area then no vehicle is safe.”
In 2003, two British soldiers in a Challenger 2 were killed in a “friendly fire” incident when their vehicle was hit by shells from another one of the tanks.

An investigation by the Army Prosecuting Authority later ruled that no one acted negligently during the incident in Iraq, which left Corporal Stephen Allbutt and Trooper David Clarke of The Queen’s Royal Lancers dead as well as severely injuring two other soliders.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The Telegraph report differs from what the BBC is reporting. They claimed (showed examples) that it was a copper shapped charge!

The MOD may be playing down any speculation until a full investigation is completed.
 

FSMonster

New Member
I still don't understand this hype about shaped charge devices. The Telegraph article quote really puts it in perspective; this idea has been known since WW1.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the insurgents are making these in secret shops. Considering the large size it really doesn't need a high degree of precision when machining the copper liner that forms the penetrator.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Agreed, most hand-held AT weapons still use hollowcharge warheads.

Comes down to improved tactics, placement and timing - both allied and insurgents continue learn and adapt.
 

mickk

New Member
If you go to the right/wrong places you can see "Insurgents" converting JDAMS, GBUs into IEDs, making makeshit aiming devices, setting them and firing them.

500-1000lb fired from 10 metres is gunna do serious damage to anything.

From what Ive seen, underneath an Abrahms, it makes the whole thing jump 10 feet in the air. Side on I imagine would be fatal.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The following was quoted on the BBC reference shaped charges, sums up the situation:

The British and US have both, at various times, blamed Iran quite publicly for supplying the technology for EFPs and their detonators, in addition to much other military hardware.

It is believed that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and Hezbollah fighters collaborated in coming up with designs in Lebanon during the 1980s and 90s.

Similar devices were used with sometimes devastating effect against Israeli tanks.

Elements of the Revolutionary Guard, notably the elite al-Quds brigade, are alleged to be involved in supplying the know-how and equipment to Iraqi insurgents.

Others say that the technology is now fairly familiar and could be manufactured inside Iraq without much difficulty, and the longer the insurgency goes on, the more credible such claims may become.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I also don't understand why such an attack shows that the Iran is behind it.

The Iraq had millions of soldiers and militias. Don't you think that enough of them are able to build a bomb big enough or with a shaped charge to damage a Challi 2 without foreign help?

And that the Challi 2 is the best protected tank against IEDs/mines is debatable. With the upgrade of parts of the german and swedish Leo IIs with the M kit especially against such threats I think they are in the lead. But it might be right for all normal versions of western MBTs.

And as said before if you use enough explosives you don't need to be very smart to damage or destroy every vehicle you want.
 

extern

New Member
Comes down to improved tactics, placement and timing - both allied and insurgents continue learn and adapt.
Especially the americans who have stoped their previous BS about ERA, and turned to this kind of option:

Army officials tout success of reactive armor

Effectiveness against RPGs slows push for active defenses
By Kris Osborn - Staff writer
Posted : Saturday Apr 14, 2007 19:03:33 EDT

Army officials credit their effort to install reactive armor on more armored vehicles with cutting the number of casualties from rocket-propelled grenades in Iraq. They also said the armor, which triggers a small explosion to fend off a larger one, has reduced the Army’s immediate need for active protection systems, which are intended to shoot down incoming weapons.

“The reactive armor and slat armor protection systems currently deployed contribute to the effectiveness of our current combat systems to defeat the RPG threat without the use of an active protection system,” Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, the acquisition and systems management deputy to the assistant Army secretary for acquisition, logistics and technology, told lawmakers in September.

Since U.S.-led forces invaded Iraq in 2003, 148 U.S. soldiers have been killed by RPGs, including 10 who died inside armored vehicles, Sorenson told the lawmakers.

Casualty figures compiled by Defense News paint a similar picture, showing 122 RPG-related deaths: 84 from March 2003 through December 2004 and 38 since.

Senior Army leaders decided in late 2004 to start sending more reactive armor to forces in Iraq, Sorensen said April 13.

In 2004, they decided to put reactive armor tiles on all of the service’s Abrams tanks, Bradley armored personnel carriers and Stryker fighting vehicles, he said.

“We had a number of reactive armor tiles that had been built, so we had to go back and buy them and put them on,” Sorensen said.

Today, all of the roughly 1,000 Bradley vehicles in Iraq have received the armor, he said. General Dynamics has made reactive armor for the Bradley since 1995; over the years, its orders have totaled $500 million for 1,450 sets.

GD also is making 500 sets of tank-armor tiles under a 2006 $59 million contract with Picatinny Arsenal, N.J. The first 100 tank sets have been delivered to the Anniston Depot, Ala., and will soon be shipped to Iraq.

The first set of Stryker reactive armor tiles has been completed, said Sorenson.
New armor, new countertactics

Reactive armor works by attaching small packs of explosives to a vehicle’s outer shell. The explosives detonate when hit by incoming fire, blowing the round away from the vehicle.

“We specifically craft the armor to the vehicle,” said Jerry DiGiacoma, who manages the reactive armor program for GD Armament and Technical Products. “Even the shapes of the tiles are customized to the configuration of the vehicle to protect it in vulnerable areas.”

Each tile protects only against a single hit. An enemy good or lucky enough to hit the same spot twice may find it vulnerable. So insurgent teams have attempted to defeat the armor by firing multiple RPGs at once, industry sources say.

But U.S. forces have learned to break up such groups with M-16 rifles and turret-mounted .50-caliber machine guns, the industry source said. Sorensen said these countertactics have also cut RPG casualties.

“Soldiers have become more adept at identifying threats. What I hear from commanders is that most of these engagements are at short range,” said Sorenson.

But that’s hardly the end of enemy attempts to hit the same spot twice. Some insurgent attacks have featured the tandem-charge RPG-29, which fires a small charge followed by a larger one.

Some improvised explosive devices are now being built with multiple explosively formed penetrators that can fire several slugs of molten metal at a single aim point.

“A multi-slug causes a lot of problems,” said Vernon Joynt, lead scientist for Force Protection, the South Carolina-based vehicle maker known for the improvised-explosive-device-stopping Buffalo and Cougar. “It shoots all the slugs like a machine gun in line. Problems arise with certain kinds of ceramics. They defeat the threat but do not remain in place. They are brittle. If you have one slug hitting them it will defeat the slug but shatter in the process, so if you have a multi-slug the rest [of the slugs] will come flying through like through a tunnel.”

GD says reactive armor can stop multi-slug projectiles.

“The reactive armor on the Bradley defeats all known threats,” said John Suttle, a spokesman with GD Armament and Technical Products.
APS slowdown

Sorensen said the success of reactive armor has eased the urgent need to buy active protection systems that identify, track, and shoot down incoming rounds. But such systems will eventually be needed, he said, and will be installed on the eight Future Combat Systems vehicles planned for deployment by 2015.

In 2012, the service plans to deploy Raytheon’s radar-driven Quick Kill as part of the second group of technologies developed under the FCS program. Early versions of the launcher controls and interceptor munitions have been tested, Army officials say.

“APS is quite literally a bubble of protection. It includes a number of launchers that have the APS munitions and are tied into a sensor that picks up the incoming round,” said Allan Resnick, who directs requirements integration at the Capabilities Integration Center of the Army’s Training and Doctrine Command.

The Army’s decision to buy Quick Kill was questioned by Raytheon competitors, who wondered why the Army chose an under-development system instead of the on-sale Israeli Trophy. Army officials say they looked at eight systems and chose the best option.

“We have done the analysis on this six ways to Sunday,” said Sorenson.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/defense_reactive_armor_070413/
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hmmm, makes me wonder if the US again tries to field a goldplated new system instead of using what the troops need and what is available.
One of the problems coming with a big budget. Sometimes things are more complex than needed and tend to be very late. (Ok this also occurs here with our tiny budget :D )
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
today,in basra the armour of a challenger 2 has,apparently been breached by a roadside bomb for the first time injuring the driver.
firstly how has the challenger2 been able to withstand such attacks for such a long time whilst the abraams hasnt and secondly what might have been different about this incident to cause the breach?
This is not the first Challenger that has been lost in Iraq due to a IED, plus the areas that they are deployed in Iraq are not as intense as to what Americans are facing.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I have no idea.
But my bets are on an AT mine, a really big conventional IED (Like the mentioned arty grenades) or an improvised shaped charge bomb.

My best wishes to the wounded crewmans.:(
They are finding IEDs as big as a couple of 152mm arty rounds with a anti tank mine attached to them, with this type of set up your chances of walking away from this can be on the low side and it doesn`t matter what type of tank it is.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Especially the americans who have stoped their previous BS about ERA, and turned to this kind of option:

Army officials tout success of reactive armor

Effectiveness against RPGs slows push for active defenses
By Kris Osborn - Staff writer
Posted : Saturday Apr 14, 2007 19:03:33 EDT

Army officials credit their effort to install reactive armor on more armored vehicles with cutting the number of casualties from rocket-propelled grenades in Iraq. They also said the armor, which triggers a small explosion to fend off a larger one, has reduced the Army’s immediate need for active protection systems, which are intended to shoot down incoming weapons.

“The reactive armor and slat armor protection systems currently deployed contribute to the effectiveness of our current combat systems to defeat the RPG threat without the use of an active protection system,” Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, the acquisition and systems management deputy to the assistant Army secretary for acquisition, logistics and technology, told lawmakers in September.

Since U.S.-led forces invaded Iraq in 2003, 148 U.S. soldiers have been killed by RPGs, including 10 who died inside armored vehicles, Sorenson told the lawmakers.

Casualty figures compiled by Defense News paint a similar picture, showing 122 RPG-related deaths: 84 from March 2003 through December 2004 and 38 since.

Senior Army leaders decided in late 2004 to start sending more reactive armor to forces in Iraq, Sorensen said April 13.

In 2004, they decided to put reactive armor tiles on all of the service’s Abrams tanks, Bradley armored personnel carriers and Stryker fighting vehicles, he said.

“We had a number of reactive armor tiles that had been built, so we had to go back and buy them and put them on,” Sorensen said.

Today, all of the roughly 1,000 Bradley vehicles in Iraq have received the armor, he said. General Dynamics has made reactive armor for the Bradley since 1995; over the years, its orders have totaled $500 million for 1,450 sets.

GD also is making 500 sets of tank-armor tiles under a 2006 $59 million contract with Picatinny Arsenal, N.J. The first 100 tank sets have been delivered to the Anniston Depot, Ala., and will soon be shipped to Iraq.

The first set of Stryker reactive armor tiles has been completed, said Sorenson.
New armor, new countertactics

Reactive armor works by attaching small packs of explosives to a vehicle’s outer shell. The explosives detonate when hit by incoming fire, blowing the round away from the vehicle.

“We specifically craft the armor to the vehicle,” said Jerry DiGiacoma, who manages the reactive armor program for GD Armament and Technical Products. “Even the shapes of the tiles are customized to the configuration of the vehicle to protect it in vulnerable areas.”

Each tile protects only against a single hit. An enemy good or lucky enough to hit the same spot twice may find it vulnerable. So insurgent teams have attempted to defeat the armor by firing multiple RPGs at once, industry sources say.

But U.S. forces have learned to break up such groups with M-16 rifles and turret-mounted .50-caliber machine guns, the industry source said. Sorensen said these countertactics have also cut RPG casualties.

“Soldiers have become more adept at identifying threats. What I hear from commanders is that most of these engagements are at short range,” said Sorenson.

But that’s hardly the end of enemy attempts to hit the same spot twice. Some insurgent attacks have featured the tandem-charge RPG-29, which fires a small charge followed by a larger one.

Some improvised explosive devices are now being built with multiple explosively formed penetrators that can fire several slugs of molten metal at a single aim point.

“A multi-slug causes a lot of problems,” said Vernon Joynt, lead scientist for Force Protection, the South Carolina-based vehicle maker known for the improvised-explosive-device-stopping Buffalo and Cougar. “It shoots all the slugs like a machine gun in line. Problems arise with certain kinds of ceramics. They defeat the threat but do not remain in place. They are brittle. If you have one slug hitting them it will defeat the slug but shatter in the process, so if you have a multi-slug the rest [of the slugs] will come flying through like through a tunnel.”

GD says reactive armor can stop multi-slug projectiles.

“The reactive armor on the Bradley defeats all known threats,” said John Suttle, a spokesman with GD Armament and Technical Products.
APS slowdown

Sorensen said the success of reactive armor has eased the urgent need to buy active protection systems that identify, track, and shoot down incoming rounds. But such systems will eventually be needed, he said, and will be installed on the eight Future Combat Systems vehicles planned for deployment by 2015.

In 2012, the service plans to deploy Raytheon’s radar-driven Quick Kill as part of the second group of technologies developed under the FCS program. Early versions of the launcher controls and interceptor munitions have been tested, Army officials say.

“APS is quite literally a bubble of protection. It includes a number of launchers that have the APS munitions and are tied into a sensor that picks up the incoming round,” said Allan Resnick, who directs requirements integration at the Capabilities Integration Center of the Army’s Training and Doctrine Command.

The Army’s decision to buy Quick Kill was questioned by Raytheon competitors, who wondered why the Army chose an under-development system instead of the on-sale Israeli Trophy. Army officials say they looked at eight systems and chose the best option.

“We have done the analysis on this six ways to Sunday,” said Sorenson.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/defense_reactive_armor_070413/
Again - these counter measure devices leave alot to be desired including Trophy and Arena.

As far as the U.S needing reactive armor on their vehicles, if they are going to keep using them in cities which is the wrong use for a tank, then they better start using it. I have been informed that a new tactic for the insurgents is to fire RPG - 7s from 2nd and 3rd story windows to hit the tops of the tanks and Bradleys.:(
 

Sgt.Banes

New Member
I have no idea.
But my bets are on an AT mine, a really big conventional IED (Like the mentioned arty grenades) or an improvised shaped charge bomb.

My best wishes to the wounded crewmans.:(
That's probably the case, that or some large type of general purpose bomb place under the road.
 
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