Brazil and Su-35

[Salty Dog]

Sorry for the basic question but what is a G5 and does the below article mean Brazil's signing on with Russia and not France?
Thanks

Russia to Make G5 Fighter in Tandem with Brazil
Russia and Brazil have inked an agreement to jointly develop G5 fighter jets and boosters that will place into orbit different types of satellites.
Russia and Brazil intend to develop the G5 fighter jet, AP reported with reference to Brazil’s Minister for Strategic Affairs Roberto Mangabeira Unger. The agreement also spells out joint production of boosters capable of placing into orbit various types of satellites.

Of interest is that Russia and India concluded a similar agreement for G5 fighters past fall.

The G5 fighter will be created by 2009, Russia’s First Vice Premier Sergei Ivanov pledged earlier. Member of Sukhoi Aviation Holding, Chkalov Novosibirsk Aviation Production Association will manufacture the front section and auxiliaries for making the parts from glass and carbon composite. Other enterprises of Sukhoi will focus on remaining components.

Link
http://www.kommersant.com/p-12361/r_500/G5_Brazil/

This recent agreement between Brazil and Russia is for a 5th Gen fighter, space launch vehicles, and cybernetics.

Brazil, Russia to build jet fighter By MARCO SIBAJA, Associated Press Writer

Tue Apr 15, 5:06 PM ET

Brazil and Russia signed an agreement on Tuesday to jointly develop top-line jet fighters and satellite launch vehicles.

Brazil's Strategic Affairs Minister Roberto Mangabeira Unger told reporters the agreement will lead to the development of fifth-generation jet fighters that are built using sophisticated engineering, such as composite materials, stealth technology and advanced radar.

The agreement signed by Unger and the deputy secretary of Russia's Security Council, Valentin Sobolev, includes the construction of rockets capable of hurling several kinds of satellites into space.

Brazil builds its own small and medium-size rockets that are launched from the Alcantara base in the northeastern state of Maranhao.

The base is considered an excellent launch site because it is located just 2.3 degrees south of the equator, the line at which the Earth moves the fastest, helping propel rockets into space with less fuel.

Tuesday's agreement calls for advanced training in the field of cybernetics, which Mangabeira called "essential for the defense and the technological evolution of our industry." It also involves the transfer of technology, something Brazil has always insisted on.

Earlier this year, France aid it would transfer technology to the Brazil for construction of the Scorpene attack submarine, helicopters and the Rafale fighter plane.

The Scorpene is a conventional attack submarine, but Brazilian officials have said they want the diesel-powered vessel to serve as a model for the development of a nuclear submarine that would be the first in Latin America.

University of Brasilia political scientist David Fleischer said the agreement may not advance very far because Russia may limit the transfer of technology for the fighter jets.

"The problem is that the Russians have never been all that keen on technology transfer," Fleischer said. "But then again the Russians may want to beat out the French, so the deal could eventually go through."

"A deal with Russia, together with Venezuela's recent purchases of Russian weapons, could spark an arms race in South America," Fleischer added.

Venezuela recently bought 53 Russian-made attack helicopters, 100,000 assault rifles, 24 Sukhoi fighter jets, 12 military transport planes and 5,000 sniper rifles.

 

[peterAustralia]

My post will be a fraction political, but hopefully relatively brief and I hope not too annoying.

I believe that money spent on very high tech planes and submarines to be a bad way to spend money. Firstly they have very limited use in internal security operations (against drug runners, guerrillas etc) that may destabilise a country and in turn harm the populace.

Secondly this can start an arms race resulting in billions (maybe tens of billions) of dollars flowing from poor countries to relatively rich countries. Conflict between nations in south America has been low in the last one hundred years. Yes the past is no predictor of the future. Yes there was a conflict between Ecuador and Peru a few years back. However I know of few border disputes and of few ethnic issues, (as an example of what I mean...thousands of ethnic Brazilians living in Chile etc)

If an arms race starts, and I hope it doesn't, billions of dollars will be spent and no one will be better off. Say at moment Argentina and Chile are reasonably well matched, then each spends billions on new arms.. the end result will be both Argentina and Chile are still reasonably well matched.. (who wins, who loses... people in South America lose.. people in countries that make arms win).. this is simply my opinion... not fact.

peter

 

[Actual]

My post will be a fraction political, but hopefully relatively brief and I hope not too annoying.

I believe that money spent on very high tech planes and submarines to be a bad way to spend money. Firstly they have very limited use in internal security operations (against drug runners, guerrillas etc) that may destabilise a country and in turn harm the populace.

Secondly this can start an arms race resulting in billions (maybe tens of billions) of dollars flowing from poor countries to relatively rich countries. Conflict between nations in south America has been low in the last one hundred years. Yes the past is no predictor of the future. Yes there was a conflict between Ecuador and Peru a few years back. However I know of few border disputes and of few ethnic issues, (as an example of what I mean...thousands of ethnic Brazilians living in Chile etc)

If an arms race starts, and I hope it doesn't, billions of dollars will be spent and no one will be better off. Say at moment Argentina and Chile are reasonably well matched, then each spends billions on new arms.. the end result will be both Argentina and Chile are still reasonably well matched.. (who wins, who loses... people in South America lose.. people in countries that make arms win).. this is simply my opinion... not fact.

peter

I would argue that a South American arms race has already begun.

Take Chile for example, who has used high copper export earnings to bring a host of new weapons systems into its inventory over the last several years. Taking data from SIPRI's Arms Trade Register, since 2000 some of the major purchases Chile has bought include:

200 ex-Dutch Leopard MBT with another 100+ ex-German Leopard II;
300+ Ex-Belgian, US and Italian AIFVs and APCs;
2 Scorpene SSK from France/Spain as well as a new stock of Exocets;
1000 Spike ATGM from Israel as well as Isreali BVRAAM for the air force;
4 former Dutch Navy Frigates;
4 former Royal Navy Frigates;
1 A-310 MRTT from Airbus as well as a commitment to 3 A-400M;
28 ex-US and Dutch F-16C.

That's quite a list of purchases for just the last 8 years. I would also disagree with the view that Chile and Argentina are reasonably well-matched, Argentina's defence procurement for the same period has been no where near as lavish as her economic troubles continue. Argentina is probably the exception to the current trend in South America.

With Venezuela, Brazil, Ecuador and Columbia all spending more on defence, I can only see the regional arms race there becoming more intensive.

 

[ROCK45]

Heating up

Sweden green lights SAAB sales to Colombia so even more advance jet fighters could make they way to South America, there are flew stories floating around on this already. If Ecuador purchases weapons to off set Colombia's purchases well Peru can't be far behind. Peru's mining isn't doing badly either and they also have some natural gas hitting in a little to so Peru's spending could go up over the next three years. Brazil's spending will increase big time over the next 3 to 5 years as well. Chile's has formed a very modern armed forces in a short time and a balance one at that as well. I agree with Actual the arms race started already.

 

[windscorpion]

Its a strange move by Brazil, if we assume its some version of PAK-FA they are after but its probably 2020 at least before they will get anything and also they are a Western shop so they will have to add the extra expense of a Russian logistics train and maintenance/operation knowledge base.

 

[Feanor]

Viktor you claim the T-95 will be demonstrated in 2 months? The Russian MoD mentioned 2009 as the date. Do you have a source?

On topic, I think this is all speculation. What was signed was a technological cooperation agreement. That's it. What it will lead to remains to be seen.

 

[Viktor]

Viktor you claim the T-95 will be demonstrated in 2 months? The Russian MoD mentioned 2009 as the date. Do you have a source?

On topic, I think this is all speculation. What was signed was a technological cooperation agreement. That's it. What it will lead to remains to be seen.

Its oftopic so ... I dont mind if mods deleate this ... but here you go

This year Nizhni Tagil will show off with T-95
27.02.2008 12:24



According to the information leaked into the Russian media it is the last and the only version of the principally new tank, the project of which started nearly 25 years ago under a soviet program "Molot" (hammer). The first design offered by the Leningrad based designers was called 477, but never came to life. Notorious Omsk made Black Eagle is another option of the same idea, however, it is highly likely that "Cherny Orel" will be ever commissioned too. Independent experts point out several outstanding technologies introduced on the Black Eagle: its shots are fixed to the gun like the cartridges of the machine gun, having used it the tank just "drops" it; its turret can carry a gun of any caliber, the shell are separated from the staff's compartment etc. However, because of the fate of Omsktransmash this project has too little chances. The only more or less viable project which can be regarded as a derivate of the product 477 is "product 195" of designed by Nizhny Tagil KBTM.

The tank has a new multi layer armor, classical powder gun, active system of protection "Arena" in addition to the already “obligatory” passive dynamic protection. Crew - 3 persons: the commander, aimer and driver. It will be placed in the forward part of the hull. Engine and transmission is behind. The gun is put outside, on the top part of the hull and can be of any caliber (basic version not less than 130 mm). Location of the shells will be, most likely, classical, like in Т-72 and Т-90. However, the crew will be separated from them with a reinforced armor. The tank’s weight, most likely, will exceed 50 tons. Years ago the design of T-95 started under the same technical tasks as BTR-90, so most likely the dimensions / weight will be sacrificed to unification. However, T-95 will suit for placing practically kind of arms, guns or missiles.

News source: ShipbuildingRu

Its unreal to expect from Brasil or any other country that they will coorperate on such thing as PAK-FA and invest money but wont buy ...

 

[Salty Dog]

Somehow PAK-FA was associated with 5th Generation fighter technologies in the case with Brazil.

The Brazilians are mainly interested in the technologies for a 5th Gen fighter such as materials, avionics, radars, etc. Should this lead to co-development of a 5th Gen fighter, that would be another step such as the India-Russia agreement to co-develop a 5th Gen fighter probably the PAK-FA/T-50.

Technology transfer is not necessary one-for-one in the same field. Russia may transfer 5th Gen fighter technolgies to Brazil in exchange for deep water oil field technolgies, biofuels production, or agriculture research.

 

[contedicavour]

I wonder if all of this isn't just a sales pitch to ensure Dassault provides a better deal for the Rafale it is proposing to Brazil...
Having said this, Brazil operates or operated Mirage III, F5 and AM-X. So if in the future it operated both Flanker (or future gen5 evolution of it) and Rafale it wouldn't be so outlandish. But still illogical since Brazil will eventually order maximum 60 planes. Splitting them between 2 types is a waste of money...

cheers

 

[swerve]

I wonder if all of this isn't just a sales pitch to ensure Dassault provides a better deal for the Rafale it is proposing to Brazil...
Having said this, Brazil operates or operated Mirage III, F5 and AM-X. So if in the future it operated both Flanker (or future gen5 evolution of it) and Rafale it wouldn't be so outlandish. But still illogical since Brazil will eventually order maximum 60 planes. Splitting them between 2 types is a waste of money...

cheers

Mirage III all gone now. Mirage 2000 in service.

 

[Feanor]

Viktor it says this year. Not in two months. This year could be in 2 months, or in 6 months, or not all (if they decide it isn't ready for public viewing just yet).

 

[grantar2]

Motives

Dassault, EADS, Snecma & Thales own a 20% share of Embraer. The Brazilians are being offered 4th gen jets in the current competition. They will likely select a U.S. competitor becuase phase II of the opportunity has significant co-production. The tech transfer would benifit Embraer which is looking to challenge Boeing for the 737 replacement market, and Dasault which looks to stay competitve in the military airframe, particularly fighter business but doesn't have the base to mature. The Russians are also rans, desperately looking for a development partner to share the cost of playing catch up. The Chinese and Indians have not really obliged.

Someone mentioned earlier that the remanufactured Swiss F-5's were not competitve even with the help of AEW. Against a 5th gen, no nothing is. But against anything the Brazilians will face in South America, clearly yes. There are very few adversaries with the necessary electronic warfare set to make the F-5 even at this late date obsolete. Beware the little knife fighter.

 

[Sintra]

Dassault, EADS, Snecma & Thales own a 20% share of Embraer. The Brazilians are being offered 4th gen jets in the current competition. They will likely select a U.S. competitor becuase phase II of the opportunity has significant co-production. The tech transfer would benifit Embraer which is looking to challenge Boeing for the 737 replacement market, and Dasault which looks to stay competitve in the military airframe, particularly fighter business but doesn't have the base to mature. The Russians are also rans, desperately looking for a development partner to share the cost of playing catch up. The Chinese and Indians have not really obliged.

Someone mentioned earlier that the remanufactured Swiss F-5's were not competitve even with the help of AEW. Against a 5th gen, no nothing is. But against anything the Brazilians will face in South America, clearly yes. There are very few adversaries with the necessary electronic warfare set to make the F-5 even at this late date obsolete. Beware the little knife fighter.

Grantar2

FAB will select an American competitor because "phase II has significant co-production" while at the same time "The tech transfer would benifit Embraer which is looking to challenge Boeing for the 737 replacement market"!
Are you aware that the only American competitor left in the FX2 RFP is... well, Boeing... and that the Sukhoi offer has already been rejected in the RFI avaliation?

 

[Salty Dog]

Grantar2

FAB will select an American competitor because "phase II has significant co-production" while at the same time "The tech transfer would benifit Embraer which is looking to challenge Boeing for the 737 replacement market"!
Are you aware that the only American competitor left in the FX2 RFP is... well, Boeing... and that the Sukhoi offer has already been rejected in the RFI avaliation?

The only three remaining competitors for evaluation by the FAB are the Boeing F/A-18E/F, Saab Gripen NG, and Dassault Rafale. The politicians however, would like you to believe the Sukhoi Su-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon are still in the running.