Brazil and Su-35
- Thread starter icekid
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Scorpion82
New Member
Well the old Su-35 (Su-27M) was once offered for the Brazilian FX competition before it was canceled due lack of money. Brazil is said to restart the competition this month and as the old Su-35 is not longer proposed by the Sukhoi it is not unlikely that they will offer the new Su-35, though some sources suggest that the Su-30MK2 will be offered as well.
Yeah, it was offered to Brazil before, I think.youtube.com/watch?v=qMG0ttaR7xQ
please take a look at this video; freeze this video at 390th sec (do the math to convert in minutes)
And see the Brazilian flag on the Su-35.
Does Brazil has anything to do with Su-35?
Barley means anything, though. Just means it was seriously considering it for a while.
I have a picture of Mirage 2000 painted in desert camo with the Iraqi flag and Iraqi Air Force roundels on it and the Iraqi Air Force never operated the Mirage 2000. It just seriously considered buying it.
Brazilian FX competition
The current Brazilian FX competition is ongoing but the Rafale seems to be the front runner. I think since Venezuela bought there Flankers that this Brazilian FX competition might purchase some new fighters. Brazil's still picking up F-5s so it makes one wonder if new fighter will be bought. To me Brazil's more of a French shop and won't go Russian don't be surprise if more ex-Mirage 2000s are bought or maybe ex-French Mirage 2000-5s.
The current Brazilian FX competition is ongoing but the Rafale seems to be the front runner. I think since Venezuela bought there Flankers that this Brazilian FX competition might purchase some new fighters. Brazil's still picking up F-5s so it makes one wonder if new fighter will be bought. To me Brazil's more of a French shop and won't go Russian don't be surprise if more ex-Mirage 2000s are bought or maybe ex-French Mirage 2000-5s.
More secondhand F-5E is a short-term fix, & even upgraded & using Brazilian AEW they're no match air-air for a modern fighter. France doesn't have many Mirage 2000 to sell (none, if the AdlA has its way) at the moment, the old ones are well-used & showing it, & the AdlA might mutiny if they had to sell any Mirage 2000-5. With only a handful of Rafale in service, it doesn't make sense to sell the best of their other fighters.The current Brazilian FX competition is ongoing but the Rafale seems to be the front runner. I think since Venezuela bought there Flankers that this Brazilian FX competition might purchase some new fighters. Brazil's still picking up F-5s so it makes one wonder if new fighter will be bought. To me Brazil's more of a French shop and won't go Russian don't be surprise if more ex-Mirage 2000s are bought or maybe ex-French Mirage 2000-5s.
Mirage numbers
I agree there aren't many Mirage 2000s or 2000-5 France could sell. I don't think any Mirage 2000 users resold there fighters must be a good fighter and/or performer. I guess a lot depends on how much Brazil is willing to spend and what type of off sets can be arranged.
I agree there aren't many Mirage 2000s or 2000-5 France could sell. I don't think any Mirage 2000 users resold there fighters must be a good fighter and/or performer. I guess a lot depends on how much Brazil is willing to spend and what type of off sets can be arranged.
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Rafale
I think so to and kind of root for the Rafale as a underdog. I wonder if the MICA missile or other French parts/service is so much more expensive thus the reason for lost sales. Something not released to the public or hidden under something is holding this aircraft back doesn't it seem? If it's not the aircraft then it must be upper management right? Anyway I think Brazil should be able to work out a good deal with France and maybe pick up part of the construction as well since they have the industry to support it. Funding is everything and more R&D is needed in this program first an AESA radar and second customers by this time want to see a upgraded engine.
I think so to and kind of root for the Rafale as a underdog. I wonder if the MICA missile or other French parts/service is so much more expensive thus the reason for lost sales. Something not released to the public or hidden under something is holding this aircraft back doesn't it seem? If it's not the aircraft then it must be upper management right? Anyway I think Brazil should be able to work out a good deal with France and maybe pick up part of the construction as well since they have the industry to support it. Funding is everything and more R&D is needed in this program first an AESA radar and second customers by this time want to see a upgraded engine.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
I wouldn't discount those Gripen fighters either in the Brazilian air force.More secondhand F-5E is a short-term fix, & even upgraded & using Brazilian AEW they're no match air-air for a modern fighter. France doesn't have many Mirage 2000 to sell (none, if the AdlA has its way) at the moment, the old ones are well-used & showing it, & the AdlA might mutiny if they had to sell any Mirage 2000-5. With only a handful of Rafale in service, it doesn't make sense to sell the best of their other fighters.
There is something like 120 A-B models recently retired by the Swedes, with little airframe usage. A straightforward upgrade to the C/D variant and you have a NATO compliant aircraft that's an excellent "point" fighter and light strike aircraft.
Integrate with a HMS and a HOBS missile and Meteor AAM and integrated with Brazil's existing Erieye AEW&C aircraft and you have the makings of a very good, very modern but relatively cheap air combat system...
Brazilian FX competition
Gripen fighters in Brazilian air force very interesting to be honest I never thought of that. Seeing what Brazil has done in the past with F-5, A-4s, and Mirage III's, it seems like something Brazil's Air Force and aircraft industry could work with. Some would see two issues here range being one, and the second something to if need be to go up against Venezuela's Flankers. Both to me can be work around but some would say a classic mid or full size fighter is needed. It out ranges anything they have currently, plus 1. Second with AWACS which they do have plus a numbers of other factor's Venezuela's Flankers in there current numbers at not the end all. Imagine if they could save $15 or even $20 million per frame if they pick up the A/B models plus placed an order for a number of C/D models too? Spending $50/60 mil compared to $80/90 mil per aircraft is big money.
Long term threats in the region to the Gripen
Chile's 10 Block-52 and I think are 18 or 24 ex-Holland Vipers (please correct)
24 Flankers - Venezuela
Peru- 19 Mig-29s 16A/3SE, Mirage 2000s - mostly non flyable lacking funding
This is only a quick look at the regions fighters but for Brazil to get good deals on these Gripen's a little higher numbers would needed to be bought. Nothing on the scale of the used Mirage 2000s they picked up. You maybe on to something.
Gripen fighters in Brazilian air force very interesting to be honest I never thought of that. Seeing what Brazil has done in the past with F-5, A-4s, and Mirage III's, it seems like something Brazil's Air Force and aircraft industry could work with. Some would see two issues here range being one, and the second something to if need be to go up against Venezuela's Flankers. Both to me can be work around but some would say a classic mid or full size fighter is needed. It out ranges anything they have currently, plus 1. Second with AWACS which they do have plus a numbers of other factor's Venezuela's Flankers in there current numbers at not the end all. Imagine if they could save $15 or even $20 million per frame if they pick up the A/B models plus placed an order for a number of C/D models too? Spending $50/60 mil compared to $80/90 mil per aircraft is big money.
Long term threats in the region to the Gripen
Chile's 10 Block-52 and I think are 18 or 24 ex-Holland Vipers (please correct)
24 Flankers - Venezuela
Peru- 19 Mig-29s 16A/3SE, Mirage 2000s - mostly non flyable lacking funding
This is only a quick look at the regions fighters but for Brazil to get good deals on these Gripen's a little higher numbers would needed to be bought. Nothing on the scale of the used Mirage 2000s they picked up. You maybe on to something.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
The Gripen would be a very good "short term" fighter acquisition. Whether Brazil would want to rely upon it as a long term aircraft solution is outside this discussion, but the Gripen has a secure upgrade path with the Gripen NG program to bear in mind...Gripen fighters in Brazilian air force very interesting to be honest I never thought of that. Seeing what Brazil has done in the past with F-5, A-4s, and Mirage III's, it seems like something Brazil's Air Force and aircraft industry could work with. Some would see two issues here range being one, and the second something to if need be to go up against Venezuela's Flankers. Both to me can be work around but some would say a classic mid or full size fighter is needed. It out ranges anything they have currently, plus 1. Second with AWACS which they do have plus a numbers of other factor's Venezuela's Flankers in there current numbers at not the end all. Imagine if they could save $15 or even $20 million per frame if they pick up the A/B models plus placed an order for a number of C/D models too? Spending $50/60 mil compared to $80/90 mil per aircraft is big money.
Long term threats in the region to the Gripen
Chile's 10 Block-52 and I think are 18 or 24 ex-Holland Vipers (please correct)
24 Flankers - Venezuela
Peru- 19 Mig-29s 16A/3SE, Mirage 2000s - mostly non flyable lacking funding
This is only a quick look at the regions fighters but for Brazil to get good deals on these Gripen's a little higher numbers would needed to be bought. Nothing on the scale of the used Mirage 2000s they picked up. You maybe on to something.
An AESA radar equipped, F-414 engined Gripen fighter with airframe modifications to allow for greater weapons/sensor carriage and possible LO treatments ala Super Hornet, would be a credible challenger in the "South American scene".
I wouldn't advocate taking on A/B models without an upgrade to the C/D model for Brazil, but several Squadrons of C/D model Gripens (possibly 48x in total) and equipped with the long range Meteor AAM, a modern HOBS short ranged IIR missile and a capable air to ground weapons and sensor package when integrated with Brazil's existing IADS system and the Erieye AEW&C system would be a system that could not be taken lightly...
I don't think Gripen itself provides the greatest combat capability available amongst modern combat aircraft. However I have little doubt it IS capable, especially air to air, but I think it's amongst the most cost effective, an important consideration for Brazil by all accounts.
In terms of range, there are ways around that issue. FARP's, dedicated air to air refuellers, CFT's, buddy tanking, stand off weapons etc. I don't think quoted range figures are the be-all and end all of fighter aircraft and certainly neither the MiG-29 nor F-16 are known for their outstanding range capabilities...
The Gripen would make a very good replacement for the F-5E. An unmodified JAS39A would be much better than even an upgraded F-5E, & with more potential for upgrade & more remaining airframe life. Brazil could doubtless do a deal with SAAB for joint upgrading, either to C or to a Brazil-specific standard. Cost vs. expected life will be an issue in determining how much upgrading is desirable. The A/B to C/D upgrade re-lifes the airframe by replacing much of it, which isn't cheap. The timescales might not fit perfectly with F-5E retirement, but better too much overlap than a gap. There is also the opportunity to build on the co-operation with South Africa on missiles, establishing a joint Gripen support & upgrade infrastructure.
The Gripen NG (I expect one day it'll be called JAS39E) described is to have 40% more fuel than the A/B/C/D, as well as the other improvements mentioned. IRIS-T is integrated on Gripen, & Meteor integration is easy: Gripen is the first Meteor testbed.
I don't see a Brazilian purchase of used Gripen A as necessarily precluding the purchase of some more capable fighters. As well as a few Mirage III (now replaced by Mirage 2000), Brazil has long operated F-5E and AMX. A second-tier fighter, bought in larger numbers (& 70 to 100 Gripen A/B should be for sale), would fit nicely, allowing numbers to be kept up at relatively modest cost. But as mentioned, the timescales aren't perfect. The upgraded F-5E will be good for quite a while, & the AMX even longer.
The Gripen NG (I expect one day it'll be called JAS39E) described is to have 40% more fuel than the A/B/C/D, as well as the other improvements mentioned. IRIS-T is integrated on Gripen, & Meteor integration is easy: Gripen is the first Meteor testbed.
I don't see a Brazilian purchase of used Gripen A as necessarily precluding the purchase of some more capable fighters. As well as a few Mirage III (now replaced by Mirage 2000), Brazil has long operated F-5E and AMX. A second-tier fighter, bought in larger numbers (& 70 to 100 Gripen A/B should be for sale), would fit nicely, allowing numbers to be kept up at relatively modest cost. But as mentioned, the timescales aren't perfect. The upgraded F-5E will be good for quite a while, & the AMX even longer.
More capable fighters
I'm opened minded enough to think about the Gripen fighter for Brazil's needs but Rafale or high Block-52/60 would be better choices. Rafale a little newer design could carry Brazil's AF into the future for 5 to 10 years with little problem. The classic Viper is a good performer and has good range for a fighter it's size could work as well. Money just spent on the AMX and F-5 will make any choice a little more difficult right now.
Does anybody think Brazil might split the order? Home grown or not other aircraft are better performers than the AMX so that issue at one point will have to be addressed. I don't know enough about operational cost comparing say 60/70 AMX/F-5 vs. 50/60 Gripen's? But I would be interested in finding out such a fact. Changing or taking on more and different maintenance and training are always costly but in the end Brazil needs to change over to a little more modern aircraft.
I like there F-5s and Brazil produces there own anti-radar missile too from what I've read pretty cool, not many countries can. I've have only read good things about there Air Force and aircraft so no matter what choice they make there do very well with it.
I'm opened minded enough to think about the Gripen fighter for Brazil's needs but Rafale or high Block-52/60 would be better choices. Rafale a little newer design could carry Brazil's AF into the future for 5 to 10 years with little problem. The classic Viper is a good performer and has good range for a fighter it's size could work as well. Money just spent on the AMX and F-5 will make any choice a little more difficult right now.
Does anybody think Brazil might split the order? Home grown or not other aircraft are better performers than the AMX so that issue at one point will have to be addressed. I don't know enough about operational cost comparing say 60/70 AMX/F-5 vs. 50/60 Gripen's? But I would be interested in finding out such a fact. Changing or taking on more and different maintenance and training are always costly but in the end Brazil needs to change over to a little more modern aircraft.
I like there F-5s and Brazil produces there own anti-radar missile too from what I've read pretty cool, not many countries can. I've have only read good things about there Air Force and aircraft so no matter what choice they make there do very well with it.
Rock45: there are a few requirements here, & several options for filling them.
The Mirage 2000C have been bought as an interim replacement for the old Mirage III, but they're quite old, rather out of date, & there are very few of them.
Brazil is modernising F-5E to F-5M, including giving them a BVR air-air ability, but they're older, & intrinsically limited however upgraded.
More, & more capable fighters are desirable before long, initially to supplement the air-air capabilities of the M2K & F-5M, & later to replace both.
This could be a single type, but Brazil has long operated a 2-tier fighter force, & could decide it's worth continuing to do so. Brazil has no hangups about buying secondhand, but is quite happy to buy new if it seems necessary.
The AMX are newer than the F-5E, & the upgrade they're about to go through should keep them useful for longer than either the F-5E or the Mirage 2000C.
The Mirage 2000C have been bought as an interim replacement for the old Mirage III, but they're quite old, rather out of date, & there are very few of them.
Brazil is modernising F-5E to F-5M, including giving them a BVR air-air ability, but they're older, & intrinsically limited however upgraded.
More, & more capable fighters are desirable before long, initially to supplement the air-air capabilities of the M2K & F-5M, & later to replace both.
This could be a single type, but Brazil has long operated a 2-tier fighter force, & could decide it's worth continuing to do so. Brazil has no hangups about buying secondhand, but is quite happy to buy new if it seems necessary.
The AMX are newer than the F-5E, & the upgrade they're about to go through should keep them useful for longer than either the F-5E or the Mirage 2000C.
Amx
I assume it's for internal work for there industry because how big of a radar can you put in a AMX? From the size of the aircraft it has limitations fuel cell, hard points, engine, etc, how much can you really do with this old designed? This to me is a political decision because the aircraft didn't have enough specs to produce in the first place upgrading seems like throwing money into a old car. It's there choice but some advance trainers out preform AMX jets but hey I guess buying new cost more and that's that.
I assume it's for internal work for there industry because how big of a radar can you put in a AMX? From the size of the aircraft it has limitations fuel cell, hard points, engine, etc, how much can you really do with this old designed? This to me is a political decision because the aircraft didn't have enough specs to produce in the first place upgrading seems like throwing money into a old car. It's there choice but some advance trainers out preform AMX jets but hey I guess buying new cost more and that's that.
The AMX is in service, paid for, & has many years of airframe life left. It has low operating costs & is suitable for rugged airstrips. Replacing old - and by now probably unreliable - avionics with something newer & more effective is a small fraction of the cost of new aircraft with the same capability.I assume it's for internal work for there industry because how big of a radar can you put in a AMX? From the size of the aircraft it has limitations fuel cell, hard points, engine, etc, how much can you really do with this old designed? This to me is a political decision because the aircraft didn't have enough specs to produce in the first place upgrading seems like throwing money into a old car. It's there choice but some advance trainers out preform AMX jets but hey I guess buying new cost more and that's that.
You can't fit a big radar in its nose, but so what? It is not expected to fight other aircraft, just drop bombs & PGMs, & it works in conjunction with R99 AEW&C & ground surveillance aircraft.
It's arguable that it might have been better not to build the AMX in the first place, but now they have it, keeping it flying & upgrading the avionics is a no-brainer.
contedicavour
New Member
Well you can fit GRIFO radar air to ground, fitted on several F5 E/F and modernized MIG21. Enough to ensure ground attack capacity of , say, a F16 A/B MLU.The AMX is in service, paid for, & has many years of airframe life left. It has low operating costs & is suitable for rugged airstrips. Replacing old - and by now probably unreliable - avionics with something newer & more effective is a small fraction of the cost of new aircraft with the same capability.
You can't fit a big radar in its nose, but so what? It is not expected to fight other aircraft, just drop bombs & PGMs, & it works in conjunction with R99 AEW&C & ground surveillance aircraft.
It's arguable that it might have been better not to build the AMX in the first place, but now they have it, keeping it flying & upgrading the avionics is a no-brainer.
cheers
I think that's more or less what the Brazilians are doing. They're giving their AMX fleet a mid-life update, & IIRC it includes a new radar, optimised for air-ground. Not sure exactly what, but it may be a Grifo version, like the F-5M. That's entirely consistent with what I said, which is that you can't fit a big radar.Well you can fit GRIFO radar air to ground, fitted on several F5 E/F and modernized MIG21. Enough to ensure ground attack capacity of , say, a F16 A/B MLU.
cheers
I doubt Brazil will aquire the Su-35 or Su-30MK, especially now that Venezuela bought the Su-30MK2.
The Rafale would be a natural progression to the Mirage 2000C already in use.
And there are the Mig-35, F-16, Gripen, and Eurofighter. Pretty much the same players for the Indian MRCA.
The Rafale would be a natural progression to the Mirage 2000C already in use.
And there are the Mig-35, F-16, Gripen, and Eurofighter. Pretty much the same players for the Indian MRCA.