Russian T-90 versions use Russian T-80UM fire control systems, the T-84 has upgraded this with a better laser range finder, gunner and tank commander thermal night sight, stabilization has been improved by adding a third GYRO for the hull to compensate for hull movement. also the fire control system will let the gunner fire a anti tank missle while the vehicle is moving at a moving target.Hm well Russia has
1010 T-55 active +1000 in storage or decomissioned)
639 T-62 active +3000 in storage)
4000 T-64 active + 4000 in storage
2114 T-72 active + 7800 in reserve
3044 T-80 active + 1456 in reserve
250 T-90
Thats it - as you can see quite a number
Waylander thanks for explanation - i have never being inside a tank so I dont know how dificult it is to shoot at other targets but is it posible to replace guner by some UAV and than use date to automaticly shoot as moslt likely future tank rounds will be by my opinion something like KITOLOV-2M or Krasnopol.
Eckherl I have seen some stats saying batter armour protection of T-84 but on what asumtions can you tell T-84 has batter FCS or gun stabilisation than that of T-90??
Black Eagle MBT
- Thread starter Awang se
- Start date
Also let me add that with that number of tanks in their inventory they still hold close to a 3 to 1 advantage in tanks against NATO European countries. That still is a impressive amount of tanks, you can only imagine how many artilley pieces and infantry fighting vehicles that are still on the books. I don`t think Russia has anything to worry about looking west.
I here you there, I do not trust Vladimere Putin at all.And I hope it's vice versa.
I really would not like to go back from reserve into active service.
I agree that Russia is now at a way which leads more to a "strong leadership" as they call it.
And that the freedom of political opponents and press is going down in Russia.
I really hope that the days of a nearly hot east-west conflict are finally gone.
But you are right it worries me also.
And that the freedom of political opponents and press is going down in Russia.
I really hope that the days of a nearly hot east-west conflict are finally gone.
But you are right it worries me also.
The money is not already problem for Russia at least 4-5 years, when the huge plus of its budget was emergent. For example, the income of current budget is like 7 trillion rubles and the expenditure is only 5.5, i.e. - 1.5 trillion rubles proficiency! Comparing to the mammoth American deficit, it doesn’t not look so bad, does it?
Also say me plz how many brand-new Abramses came from assembly line in 2006? I'll help you, the number is 0, bcz the line was frozen :unknown Along with that, in Russia the assembly of the last variant of T-90 - T-90S - was restored in 2002 after 5 years of stopping. Now each year some tens (30-50) of T-90A with new welded turret , new FCS, new IR etc. are entering the service. Apart that, tens of T-72s were upgraded each year despite the previous financial turmoil.
This year, the modernization of T-80 stocks was started too, next year ~100 T-72 and 50T-80's will be modernised too. According to the current 9-years plan, 680 new tanks will enter service untill 2015. The modernised T-72 and T-80's are not included in this number, but it seems to be 3-4 times more...
However, the main priority of Russia always was its nuclear strategic and tactical forces indeed.
- I know, where its rumor from: the turret of T-84 is basically made from armor steel after electro-slag melting. Its process makes steel more homogenous and some 15% stronger for fracture. However, it doesn’t mean at all, the whole turret will be 15% (or even 10%) stronger! By such expensive way (this steel is 1.5-2 time more expensive) the Ukrainians only tried to compensate their relative backwardness in composite armor technology. In addition, the armor penetration is occurring in quasi-hydrodynamic conditions, when the armor density plays more role that durability. The single thing, that is better on T-84, is existence of barrel thermal deformation sensor, that will be fixed by Russians only on the new T-72/T-80 modernization program. However, the MG of T-90 is better as a whole. Indeed, T-90A and T-84 – are comparable level devices, despite the fact that many parts of T-84 – are unlicension monkey-copy of Russian products, and simply cannot be on the level of true products.
- I don’t understand what you speak about, both T-84 and T-90S has the same Buran-Catherine-E thermal imaging sight (http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t84firecs.php?menu=m1.php ), but yes the initial version of T-90 had some less advance Agava thermal imaging sight. The Ukrainian KBA3 MG is only unlicension copy of the basic Russian-designed 2А46М. T-90S has much more accurate and strong (+authentic from its developer) 2A46M-4 Motovilikhian MG. And I donno about a gyro, but T-90 (as like as T-80U) can fire tank-launched ATGM when moving up to 35 km/h. In total only 10 T-84 have been produced and 0-exported, thus could be said, Ukraine made something, that didn’t satisfy a customer.
Okay - looking at what Russia is doing to upgrade tanks, where does the Black eagle fall into getting massed produced.The money is not already problem for Russia at least 4-5 years, when the huge plus of its budget was emergent. For example, the income of current budget is like 7 trillion rubles and the expenditure is only 5.5, i.e. - 1.5 trillion rubles proficiency! Comparing to the mammoth American deficit, it doesn’t not look so bad, does it?
Also say me plz how many brand-new Abramses came from assembly line in 2006? I'll help you, the number is 0, bcz the line was frozen :unknown Along with that, in Russia the assembly of the last variant of T-90 - T-90S - was restored in 2002 after 5 years of stopping. Now each year some tens (30-50) of T-90A with new welded turret , new FCS, new IR etc. are entering the service. Apart that, tens of T-72s were upgraded each year despite the previous financial turmoil.
This year, the modernization of T-80 stocks was started too, next year ~100 T-72 and 50T-80's will be modernised too. According to the current 9-years plan, 680 new tanks will enter service untill 2015. The modernised T-72 and T-80's are not included in this number, but it seems to be 3-4 times more...
However, the main priority of Russia always was its nuclear strategic and tactical forces indeed.
- I know, where its rumor from: the turret of T-84 is basically made from armor steel after electro-slag melting. Its process makes steel more homogenous and some 15% stronger for fracture. However, it doesn’t mean at all, the whole turret will be 15% (or even 10%) stronger! By such expensive way (this steel is 1.5-2 time more expensive) the Ukrainians only tried to compensate their relative backwardness in composite armor technology. In addition, the armor penetration is occurring in quasi-hydrodynamic conditions, when the armor density plays more role that durability. The single thing, that is better on T-84, is existence of barrel thermal deformation sensor, that will be fixed by Russians only on the new T-72/T-80 modernization program. However, the MG of T-90 is better as a whole. Indeed, T-90A and T-84 – are comparable level devices, despite the fact that many parts of T-84 – are unlicension monkey-copy of Russian products, and simply cannot be on the level of true products.
- I don’t understand what you speak about, both T-84 and T-90S has the same Buran-Catherine-E thermal imaging sight (http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t84firecs.php?menu=m1.php ), but yes the initial version of T-90 had some less advance Agava thermal imaging sight. The Ukrainian KBA3 MG is only unlicension copy of the basic Russian-designed 2А46М. T-90S has much more accurate and strong (+authentic from its developer) 2A46M-4 Motovilikhian MG. And I donno about a gyro, but T-90 (as like as T-80U) can fire tank-launched ATGM when moving up to 35 km/h. In total only 10 T-84 have been produced and 0-exported, thus could be said, Ukraine made something, that didn’t satisfy a customer.
And as far the turret manufacturing process for T-84, why would you not say that it offers better protection, the Ukrainians have the technoligy for composite armor, they got it from Russia.
As far as the thermal imaging goes I will find out if possible on what they did to improve on the sight.
Stabilization system has been upgraded to having a system set up like what western advanced tanks have, 3 gyros - turret,gun,hull.
And yes you are correct they cannot sell it but they do have clients that want the turret upgrades, the tank buying market is tough.
And please don`t get the wrong impression that I am bad mouthing Russian armor, they are still good tanks and will be a challenge to come up against,
Ukrainians are going to do everything possible to get a edge on the Russians for exporting tanks, and this case after fine tuning some areas it is not working for them on the export market, just upgrade packages.
Black Eagle - is a private initiative venture of Omsktransmash. They intented it for export from the start, but were refused by goverment bcz fear for 'know-how' leakage. The only oficially sponsored and financed tank project of Ru Army is T-95.
The only body, that has experience in armor and made all development for USSR's tanks armor is Russian 'NII Stali'. There are many experts and developers remained from the Soviet age, which transfer their skill to the mew generation of developer. It is impossible for country like Ukraine without high financial input to built development skill during so short time in completely new area . Thus, I am very sceptical about their ability to jump beyond the basic T-80 armor combination, that they built by russian licension in Soviet era. Russia refused tranferring its newest armor technology for Ukraine after its deal with Pakistan without aproprial licension and against Russian claims. You know how its deal was accomplished by Ukraine? The first 180 T-80UD tanks - were took from the soviet stocks and the remained - were made by cannibalisation (MG, ERA etc). Ukraine never made MG for tanks before, and now it is still unable to make it as good as Russia by naturally cause. If now they take order for new tanks, they need to import MG for it or to make the obsolet old soviet model.
Who is selling them the Main gun barrels, who gave them the technical help to place a L-44 into their tanks.
I know that Russia was trying to sell the Black Eagle to South Korea, but for reasons unknown it was not purchased. this version had a 125mm.
It is my impression that the Russian version will look different in the turret arrangement, I will be surprised if they do not go with the 135mm maingun.
I just can`t see the justification for them needing it at this point, I know that the auto loader can only handle projectiles at a certain size on the T-80 and T-90 and they want to increase the size of their KE projectiles but I would think that they could overcome that instead of building a different model tank.
The guns they take from their T-72/T-80 stocks, and the barrels they try to build independetly, so I doubt the Ukrainian MG can be better or even on the Russian level. I think it is obvious: if you meet 'swiss' watch, that is made in Hong-Kong, you dont start asking from the Swiss proofs, that their autentic watch works not worse that the hongkongian one, do you? Vice versa you would ask proofs if the copy works at least like the original, wouldnt you?
About Black Eagle tank: the project became to be secret, and after initially demonstration in Omsk mil show, the developers have been deprived from permission to show it for the public. According to the strong rumor, its autoloader is so universal that can adopt both divided 125mm rounds and unitary 120mm. The barrel also can be changable between 120, 125 and 135mm. The capacity of the afterload is for 22 rounds only. The army asked from the developer to increase it (it's official information, that I heard myself).
Do they have to change out the entire breech mechanism or just the gun.
You stated that it can carry the 120mm so one can assume that it will fire NATO ammunition, plus it is of a fixed ammunition type, (projectile with casing).
It was their intention at least: they did want prospective export project for the countries like S. Korea, Greece or Cyprus, that may be interested in T-80U upgrades, but are restricted by western amunition standarts. They also pondered the possibility to make upgrade for T-80U turret, using the Black Eagle turret configuration with universal autoloader that gives the possibility of using both Russian and NATO ammunition to keep compatibility with maximal pool of customers:
So have they gone to a fixed cartridge case for the 125mm along with the 135mm.
What type of adjustments would they have to make to the auto loader to fire both Russian and NATO ammunition.
Looking at the pictures, is this the official layout of the tank.
What they did, they have designed a modular gun. I donno how exactly they did it, but suppousedly it has modular design when the barrel and the chamber can be changed according to the caliber. The Ukrainians are now trying to repeat it looking on their projected Bagira gun.
Can someone translate this wideo - this is suposed to be something like T-95.
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showphoto.php/photo/17088/cat/3071
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showphoto.php/photo/17088/cat/3071
It was said: 'it is a new tank T-95. short time ago all information about it, even spoken, was prohibited'. The comander of ground forces added: 'it has some un-usual look, we are going to show this tank for public yet this year'.
- But I can add, it was not happen, the project remain to be top secret.
Black Eagle - is less secret. There are even good videos about it: http://www.webfile.ru/1190845
Where can it be changed from - the breech block housing thus making it a universal breech to take on different gun tube calibers.
Please disregard the last two posts, I couldn`t bring up the pictures you attached in the prior posts, switched computers and now I have them.
Okay - Looking at these it is apparent that this is the export version that they presented to South Korea, you will notice that it doesn`t present the 135mm gun only the 125/120/140 guns, I know that South Korea had a interest in the German 140mm for their future tank not the 152mm, I have also been told by a reliable source that Russia will not offer the 135mm until it is fully fielded with in their ranks, if they go to a 125mm on their future tank then it will be a reconfigured auto loader to handle a bigger KE round, but I have my doubts that they will stick with the 125mm, whats the point - if you have the funds to start mass producing your next generation tank then you will have the funds to have everything that the tank was intended for. There are alot of folks in the armor world who say this is not what it will look like but will be more in line on what the U.S next generation tank will look like. You will not see this tank anytime soon, Russia doesn`t have the funds and she will settle for upgrading her current tank fleet. When you can only afford to add 50 new battle tanks a year, you cannot afford to start mass producing your next generation tanks ie: cannot justify it`s purpose and what would the threat be. Only time will tell.
Okay - Looking at these it is apparent that this is the export version that they presented to South Korea, you will notice that it doesn`t present the 135mm gun only the 125/120/140 guns, I know that South Korea had a interest in the German 140mm for their future tank not the 152mm, I have also been told by a reliable source that Russia will not offer the 135mm until it is fully fielded with in their ranks, if they go to a 125mm on their future tank then it will be a reconfigured auto loader to handle a bigger KE round, but I have my doubts that they will stick with the 125mm, whats the point - if you have the funds to start mass producing your next generation tank then you will have the funds to have everything that the tank was intended for. There are alot of folks in the armor world who say this is not what it will look like but will be more in line on what the U.S next generation tank will look like. You will not see this tank anytime soon, Russia doesn`t have the funds and she will settle for upgrading her current tank fleet. When you can only afford to add 50 new battle tanks a year, you cannot afford to start mass producing your next generation tanks ie: cannot justify it`s purpose and what would the threat be. Only time will tell.
How new battle tanks US are affording in 2006?
: Look, if you have a fleet of 25 000 tanks & between them some 15 000 well upgradable T-80's T-72's and T-90's, u are in total stupidness if u start mass production of brand-new tank without thinking about what you have allready. And if you are thinking about a new caliber (not mention 135 or 140mm) for ur new gen tank, so why you dont better think about new caliber for all ur fleet? Otherwise, you will remain with only few handreds contemporal tanks and 10 000 rubbish pots with much logistic headache. I'm used to think, the modernisation (if availiable) is the most effective way to rise the military potential. Yeah, Russia keep run for some 50 new tanks a year, but some 150 additional are upgraded. I think, this relation will be kept when instead the T-90's they would roll out T-95. Now, how an interchangable MG can help? It's obvious: you are first starting to put such gun on your new brands and upgrades with 125 mm. When the quantity grows, the quick transfer to higher caliber munition become worthwile.
For example, Russia has huge fleet of T-80. Most of them have obsolet complexion (Like M1 against M1A2) but with good potenial for upgrade: exellent chassis, an efective GT or turbocharged diesel engine. Omsktransmash design unit (the Black Eagle developer) is now offering its upgrades programs for T-80: it includes an external autoloader (puting on the old turret), new ERA, new FCS and many many other gadgets. It will not be Black Eagle, but will use a part of its technologies. The new MG with variable caliber may become a part of such upgrade in the future.
Will those T-72 be upgraded to a T-72BM standard? I read about T-72BM having improved 2A46M-5 gun, V-92S2 1,000ks diesel engine, Relikt ERA, SLAT armour, heat reduction kit and mutch improved FCS. Also mutch posibly more modern materials will be used to construct main armour posibly increasing it. Do you think such modernised T-72 is up to M1 or M1A1?How new battle tanks US are affording in 2006?