best special forces

[Aussie Digger]

Um, have you ever heard of the "Embassy" Job at Princes Gate? 22nd SAS re-took the said building after it was taken over by Iraqi Terrorists. All but 1 terrorist was killed (the terrorist who survived attempted to sneak out of the building concealed amongst the hostages...) Only 1 hostage died, all other terrorists were killed, one of whom was shot 87 times... As to the Russian incident? Well I'd hardly call 174 dead hostages, a particularly successful example of a hostage rescue, irregardless of how they died!!!

Who decided to pump the poision gas in I wonder? The Commander of the CT team perhaps? One could compare it to the success of the US operation at Waco Texas on the death toll alone if one were so inclined... I myself currently work in a unit which has the responsibility of being the primary response unit to any terrorist incidents within our area of operations. NEVER have I seen an Immediate Action plan that involves pumping in gas which has a likelyhood of killing hundreds of people, even in large scale hostage rescue scenarios... If that's the best option they can come up with, well one has rather serious professional doubts about their competence...

 

[Salman78]

There was this back to back series of Speical Forces Traning and Operations on History Channel. British SAS, Seals & Green Berets..
I must say i was pretty damn impressed by Green Berets. So i vote for them.. Highly professional, excellent record and most sophisticated gadgats.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Um, have you ever heard of the "Embassy" Job at Princes Gate? 22nd SAS re-took the said building after it was taken over by Iraqi Terrorists. All but 1 terrorist was killed (the terrorist who survived attempted to sneak out of the building concealed amongst the hostages...) Only 1 hostage died, all other terrorists were killed, one of whom was shot 87 times... As to the Russian incident? Well I'd hardly call 174 dead hostages, a particularly successful example of a hostage rescue, irregardless of how they died!!!

Who decided to pump the poision gas in I wonder? The Commander of the CT team perhaps? One could compare it to the success of the US operation at Waco Texas on the death toll alone if one were so inclined... I myself currently work in a unit which has the responsibility of being the primary response unit to any terrorist incidents within our area of operations. NEVER have I seen an Immediate Action plan that involves pumping in gas which has a likelyhood of killing hundreds of people, even in large scale hostage rescue scenarios... If that's the best option they can come up with, well one has rather serious professional doubts about their competence...

If you end up killing the terrorists and a high element of the client group (civilians), then I consider that an abject failure.

That's more like a "spray and wipe" operation rather than a precision extraction.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Um, have you ever heard of the "Embassy" Job at Princes Gate? 22nd SAS re-took the said building after it was taken over by Iraqi Terrorists. All but 1 terrorist was killed (the terrorist who survived attempted to sneak out of the building concealed amongst the hostages...) Only 1 hostage died, all other terrorists were killed, one of whom was shot 87 times... As to the Russian incident? Well I'd hardly call 174 dead hostages, a particularly successful example of a hostage rescue, irregardless of how they died!!!

Who decided to pump the poision gas in I wonder? The Commander of the CT team perhaps? One could compare it to the success of the US operation at Waco Texas on the death toll alone if one were so inclined... I myself currently work in a unit which has the responsibility of being the primary response unit to any terrorist incidents within our area of operations. NEVER have I seen an Immediate Action plan that involves pumping in gas which has a likelyhood of killing hundreds of people, even in large scale hostage rescue scenarios... If that's the best option they can come up with, well one has rather serious professional doubts about their competence...

AD you can't compare SAS in Iranian embassy to Theatre incident, eventhough they are both hostage rescue missions, the difficulty and scale is alot different. In Alfa team's case is significantly more complicated.

the 174 hostages who died are mostly results of the gas used by security forces, only 16 died from direct gunfire. Considering there were 54 terrorist with automatic weapons and they got the building booby-trapped with explosive the raid was very successful. The CT team itself did not make the decision of pumping the gas in, it was the head of Russian intelligence who order it. The cause of most hostage were to be blamed on the reluctance of russian government to release info rather than the Alfa team itself.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Well then I still say that if somewhat not directly involved in the operation (ie: the head of intelligence) can order the CT team to do certain actions (ie: pump in a poisonous gas) that there command and control situation is completely screwed up and that can not have a positive effect on the competence of the team.

This mission as gf pointed out was an abject failure from a hostage rescue point of view. 16 hostages gunned down by the CT operators themselves, 174 killed because of a gas they pumped into the place, all the terrorists killed and 13 specwarops operators killed... The Princes Gate rescue is a very valid comparison between the 2. Yes there were less hostages/terrorists to deal with at Princes Gate, but the larger scenario simply requires more troops on the ground. Princes Gate was a fortified embassy designed to withstand external attack (from terrorists ironically...) The Russian incident was simply a large ampitheatre. The Russian specwarops operators would have had no trouble gaining entry to the "stronghold" during the attack, other than potential boobytraps.

 

[Awang se]

for me, the use of gas, tears or poisonous, in the hostage situation is unacceptable. In the situations, stealth, speed and accuracy is the best tool to overcome the hostage takers. i think there a similar case in egypt around 70s. it was a plane hijack. the egyptian commando throw in tear gas and the results, they failed to identified the hijackers or the passengers in the thick fog and treated both as a fair targets. i think instead of tear gas, they should use flashbang.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Well then I still say that if somewhat not directly involved in the operation (ie: the head of intelligence) can order the CT team to do certain actions (ie: pump in a poisonous gas) that there command and control situation is completely screwed up and that can not have a positive effect on the competence of the team.

This mission as gf pointed out was an abject failure from a hostage rescue point of view. 16 hostages gunned down by the CT operators themselves, 174 killed because of a gas they pumped into the place, all the terrorists killed and 13 specwarops operators killed... The Princes Gate rescue is a very valid comparison between the 2. Yes there were less hostages/terrorists to deal with at Princes Gate, but the larger scenario simply requires more troops on the ground. Princes Gate was a fortified embassy designed to withstand external attack (from terrorists ironically...) The Russian incident was simply a large ampitheatre. The Russian specwarops operators would have had no trouble gaining entry to the "stronghold" during the attack, other than potential boobytraps.

The 16 hostages killed by gunfire was already included in the 174 dead, not all of them were killed by Alfa team, some were shot by terrorist when they tried to escape ealier. And only 3 CT operators were killed, although about 12 to 14 wounded. The building was wired with booby-traps and enough explosive to raze it to ground. But the gas that was pumped in did not help much except knock out the hostages, almost all terrorist had gas mask on them. Under these condition I think the Alfa team did exceptionally well, saved over 750 hosages. The only regretable thing was that the info on the gas was not released sooner, leading to the unnecessary death of hostages later.
Also all terrorist were shot in the head or chest, some even at blank range. It suggested that the CT team execueted them after they were wounded or rendered unconscious by gas.

 

[moughoun]

Well I'm just going to throw my nationalistic 2cent's in here, The ARW's rescue of 35 people in Liberia in January this year, and capturing 2 top rebal leader's and 30 other's, with out firing a shot or losing a hostage : :smokingc:

 

[Deltared075]

The Chechen terrorists already prepare to die!

You cannot compare it with other terrorists who fear to die and want to escape!

I personally support the Russian action!
"eliminate all terrorists by all costs!"

the chechen terrorists start killing hostages!
That was the best move and only alternative can be taken by the Russian special force! bravo to them! a very good job!

The best special force should not taken pressure from the public!

One Question to who again the Russian special force action!
what other countries special force will do to prevent the terrorists to detonate the bombs?
don't tell me about some stupid negotition! this won't work out and again the Russian goverments policy!

 

[Aussie Digger]

I never said Terrorists didn't deserve to die. I merely pointd out that the performance of the Russian CT team, wasn't anything to brag about. Irregardless of who ordered it, the Russian CT team left 174 out of roughly, 800 hostages dead. That's very close to 1 in 4 hostages dead. Change the facts around anyway you like. It still doesn't change the fact that this is a dismal effort at best. The terrorists (bar one) at Princes Gate were prepared to die as well. And did so brilliantly I might add...

Delta, your hysterics aside, this Russian seige lasted days just like Princes Gate, so negotiation certainly was attempted by the Russians. It just wasn't very successful, much like their IA... Most other Countries, would not stand by and allow hostages to be executed or bombs detonated, if anything could be done to stop it. I'm just unable to be convinced that Russia took the right option. If they were unaware that the terrorists came equipped with NBC gear, than not only were their Tactical options rather debatable, but their Intelligence sucked too. I just can't see why anyone thinks this was a success. A Hostage Rescue scenario has 2 main objectives. 1. Save the hostages and 2. Kill or capture the Hostage takers. Certainly the second part was achieved, but that is relatively easy. You could standoff and turn the building into rubble if you simply wanted the terrorists dead. Saving the Hostages is rather more difficult and was something they didn't particularly accomplish well.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

I never said Terrorists didn't deserve to die. I merely pointd out that the performance of the Russian CT team, wasn't anything to brag about. Irregardless of who ordered it, the Russian CT team left 174 out of roughly, 800 hostages dead. That's very close to 1 in 4 hostages dead. Change the facts around anyway you like. It still doesn't change the fact that this is a dismal effort at best. The terrorists (bar one) at Princes Gate were prepared to die as well. And did so brilliantly I might add...

Delta, your hysterics aside, this Russian seige lasted days just like Princes Gate, so negotiation certainly was attempted by the Russians. It just wasn't very successful, much like their IA... Most other Countries, would not stand by and allow hostages to be executed or bombs detonated, if anything could be done to stop it. I'm just unable to be convinced that Russia took the right option. If they were unaware that the terrorists came equipped with NBC gear, than not only were their Tactical options rather debatable, but their Intelligence sucked too. I just can't see why anyone thinks this was a success. A Hostage Rescue scenario has 2 main objectives. 1. Save the hostages and 2. Kill or capture the Hostage takers. Certainly the second part was achieved, but that is relatively easy. You could standoff and turn the building into rubble if you simply wanted the terrorists dead. Saving the Hostages is rather more difficult and was something they didn't particularly accomplish well.

AD you must realize the death of 158 of 174 hostages are not directly related to Alfa team's assult on the building. The info on the gas used wasn't released until almost a week later after the siege. Is this the fault of the Alfa?? No because they were only following orders to pump the gas in, they are not responsible for telling the public the composition of gas. If there was someone to blame for the deaths of hostages it should be Russian government instead of Alfa team.

The 16 out of 174 who died of gunfire were not all cause by Alfa, most were shot by terrorist because they tried to escape. So you can see the assault was a very successful effort, but the handling after was terrible.

 

[Salman78]

The Chechen terrorists already prepare to die!

You cannot compare it with other terrorists who fear to die and want to escape!

I personally support the Russian action!
"eliminate all terrorists by all costs!"

the chechen terrorists start killing hostages!
That was the best move and only alternative can be taken by the Russian special force! bravo to them! a very good job!

The best special force should not taken pressure from the public!

One Question to who again the Russian special force action!
what other countries special force will do to prevent the terrorists to detonate the bombs?
don't tell me about some stupid negotition! this won't work out and again the Russian goverments policy!

They are not terrorists. They are freedom fighters and Russia is forcefully occupying their land. Untill 9/11 they were classified by US as freedom fighters so lets not politics describe who one is... Gassing innocent civilians is terrorism too so Russian govt gets in the same boat...

 

[Pathfinder-X]

They are not terrorists. They are freedom fighters and Russia is forcefully occupying their land. Untill 9/11 they were classified by US as freedom fighters so lets not politics describe who one is... Gassing innocent civilians is terrorism too so Russian govt gets in the same boat...

Therefore Taliban and Al-Qaeda are not terrorist organizations. They are freedom fighters and USA is forcefully pursueing its interest in Middle East. Until 1990's they were classified by the west as freedom fighters resisting Soviet invasion in Afganistan so let's not let U.S tell us who one is....Invading independent nation with false claims and killing innocent civilian in the process is terrorism too so U.S government gets in the same boat....

Awfully similar to your statement isn't it?? :

 

[Aussie Digger]

Well pathfinder, like I said, try and turn the facts around anyway you like. The FACT is the Russian Government decided to launch an assault, which ended up killing 174 hostages. Unless you've seen the autopsy report (presuming autopsy's were actually conducted) no one will ever really know how these people died will they? I simply cannot agree that the Team that attempted to resolve this incident was particularly competent on this occasion. The available facts simply don't add up...

 

[moughoun]

A big part of the problem was that Alpha allowed themselves to get bogged down in a protracted fire fight in the corridor outside the theater, they were held up for over 3 minutes, too long

 

[Deltared075]

The Chechen terrorists already prepare to die!

You cannot compare it with other terrorists who fear to die and want to escape!

I personally support the Russian action!
"eliminate all terrorists by all costs!"

the chechen terrorists start killing hostages!
That was the best move and only alternative can be taken by the Russian special force! bravo to them! a very good job!

The best special force should not taken pressure from the public!

One Question to who again the Russian special force action!
what other countries special force will do to prevent the terrorists to detonate the bombs?
don't tell me about some stupid negotition! this won't work out and again the Russian goverments policy!

They are not terrorists. They are freedom fighters and Russia is forcefully occupying their land. Untill 9/11 they were classified by US as freedom fighters so lets not politics describe who one is... Gassing innocent civilians is terrorism too so Russian govt gets in the same boat...

That up to you! as for me, they are terrorists! they should shame with themself! A freedom fighter will fight like a man! just like in kosovo! that freedom fighter! not some rats in chechen!

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Well pathfinder, like I said, try and turn the facts around anyway you like. The FACT is the Russian Government decided to launch an assault, which ended up killing 174 hostages. Unless you've seen the autopsy report (presuming autopsy's were actually conducted) no one will ever really know how these people died will they? I simply cannot agree that the Team that attempted to resolve this incident was particularly competent on this occasion. The available facts simply don't add up...

I have no doubt in the competence of Alfa team during the raid. You can't deny the raid itself was succesful. Here is a few articles on the siege.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Theatre_Siege

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3215707.stm

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text10-26-2002-28946.asp

And the death number is 130 instead of 174 i posted earlier.

 

[Awang se]

Malaysian Special Forces.

Malaysian SOF consists of Grup Gerak Khas (GGK), Pasukan Khas Laut (Paskal), VAT 69 and Unit Tindakan Khas (UTK). Malaysia also has an elite Rapid Deployment Force (a size of a Brigade) called Pasukan Aturgerak Cepat (PAC), but it was not considered as a Special Operations unit.

GGK

GGK is the largest SOF element in Malaysia. It is basically a commando regiment in the Malaysian Army Corps. The mission of the GGK is to provide a squadron to locate, report, harass and disrupt the enemy through long range infiltration as well as operating in close collaboration with guerilla or partisan forces. GGK will also plan, prepare for, and when directed, deploy to conduct unconventional warfare, internal defense, special reconnaissance and direct actions etc. in support of Government policy objectives within designated areas of responsibility.

GGK continually train to conduct unconventional warfare in any of its forms - Guerilla / Anti-Guerilla Warfare, Escape and Evasion, Subversion, Sabotage, Counter Terrorist and their most highly regarded expertise - Jungle Warfare. It has an awesome reputation in operations against the communist terrorists. The troopers are also schooled in direct action operations and special reconnaissance. Currently, there are 3 fully equipped regiments (21st, 22nd & 11st GGK). GGK had seen action in Cambodia, Somalia, western Sahara, Namibia and Bosnia among others.

PASKAL

The Royal Malaysian Navy set up its sea commando unit called Special Naval Force or Paskal by its Malay acronym in 1980. The unit was established using commando-trained officers and men from the services Security Regiment. Some of its personnel are stationed in man-made 'islands' in the Spratlys and in strategic areas within the country's Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). Paskal is equipped with the latest hi-tech weaponry as their operations is partly supported by a group of oil consortium (one of the Paskal's main missions is to protect oil rigs in the Malaysian coastal area).

VAT 69 & UTK

In those days of communist insurgency, Malaysian police had a paramilitary arm called Pasukan Polis Hutan (PPH). They had several battalions and among them was the elite one, known as 69th Commando Battalion or VAT 69. It was actually formed in 1969 (hence the name - 69). The normal police too had an elite unit - Unit Tindakan Khas (UTK). UTK had a SWAT-like function as well as close protection roles. After the communist terrorist laid down arms in 1989, VAT 69 had problems finding a proper role. Finally on December 1997, the PPH was renamed as Pasukan Gerakan Am (PGA) while UTK and 69th Commando Battalion was disbanded and merged. It was then called Pasukan Gerakan Khas (PGK).

HANDAU

The Royal Malaysian Air Force once had a commando unit codenamed Handau or (maybe) Pasukan Khas TUDM. Officially, Handau is not recognized as an SOF unit by the Malaysian Armed Forces. The tentative "special forces" designation is probably due to the unit's airborne capability. Some GGK members were also roped in to join Handau at its formation. Lately, the RMAF had formed a regiment called the Regimen TUDM containing Handau as well as the CART (Combat Air Rescue Team). The purpose of Regimen TUDM is to conduct combat search and rescue mission (CSAR) to recover downed pilots behind enemy lines or hostile territory, but they are much more popular with life-saving services to the civilians (courtesy flights etc.). Other than that, Regimen TUDM may also search and eliminate enemy troops who execute sabotage against RMAF air bases.
[/b]

 

[Aussie Digger]

Here's a story and a photo about a recent Thai/Australian Special Forces Exercise, plus a pic...

Aussie SF try Thai
SOCOMD troops deploy on combined counter-terror exercise

By Capt Gabrielle Turnbull

AUSTRALIAN Special Forces recently deployed to Thailand to test their ability to work together with the Thai Special Forces in resolving terrorist incidents.

Exercise Wyvern Sun was held from July 5-9 and involved Australian and Thai Special Forces rescueing hostages held by a group of terrorists.

In 30-degree temperatures, the Australian Special Forces not only acclimatised, but lived and worked with the Thai Special Forces and successfully completed their mission.

Deputy Special Operations Commander Brig Mike Hindmarsh had been located in the forward Headquarters in Thailand during the exercise and said the activity had tested and proved the interoperability of the forces.

“We all received combined briefings with interpreters and through every level – Digger to Digger, general to general – we worked together,†he said.

“Overall I found the Thais to be a very professional outfit with similar procedures to our own and a pleasure to work with.

“Our national counter-terrorism response capability must be capable of addressing all possible terrorism threats that could impact on Australia’s national interests at home and abroad.

“Therefore it is essential that Australian Special Forces have the opportunity to exercise their ability to counter terrorist activities, while offshore, working with international forces.â€

The exercise involved Defence working with a number of Australian Government Departments including the Departments of Prime Minister and Cabinet, Foreign Affairs and Trade, Attorney General’s, the Australian Federal Police and Australian intelligence agencies.

Australia and Thailand signed an agreement in 2002, the Australian-Thai Memorandum of Understanding on Cooperation to Combat International Terrorism, to advance both nations’ mutual aim of working together to defeat terrorism.

The photo looks very much like a "holding area" where the specwarries, await the decision to assault the stronghold...

This and other articles can be viewed at: http://www.defence.gov.au/news/armynews/editions/1103/Default.htm

 

[gf0012-aust]

Interesting to note that the lead operator is wearing softshoes, whereas the guy behind him is wearing GP's.