There is a 50:50 chance the PROC reps are agents. They get in everywhere. :lul
B-2 Stealth Bomber Compromised?
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We wouldn`t let them take pictures, but man were they all over the place, they were very, very interested in our metallurgy lab and quality control department.
Seems that some here have gone quite high these days, Defence Professional / Analyst & Defense Professional / Analyst where do you come up with those titles. Just to give you some facts to think about:
Has the USA won the war against terror?
Have they won the war in Irak, Afghanistan?
When you come to defence spending why don't you put the official record then let us see where the money really goes.
So Big-E just show us what you claim to know:
"The fact that the US accounts for half of global defense spending should tell you that".
Has the USA won the war against terror?
Have they won the war in Irak, Afghanistan?
When you come to defence spending why don't you put the official record then let us see where the money really goes.
So Big-E just show us what you claim to know:
"The fact that the US accounts for half of global defense spending should tell you that".
Thats the price you pay when yo play the game.
Don't feel sorry for the man, he was betraying the country that welcomed him in. He did it for money, nothing else. He doesn't deserve smpathy. He's lucky he's in the U.S., if he had betrayed China, god only knows what the PRC would do to him before they shot him, and then they would send the bill for bullet to his family.
It would be nice if everyone could stay on track. I'd prefer not to see the thread degrade into a competition of masculinity verification 
Just as a small aside - the US doesn't fund military research in Australia. The normal process is as follows:
Since 9/11 DARPA/DoC/DoD/NAVSEA/USN/USAF/USArmy/USMC send out their dream teams (usually in Novermber) They arrange to assess various technologies that have been cleared for Friendly Foreign Forces privilege. If they are interested in respective technologies then they apply for participation.
This happens at the executive level, it doesn't happen in isolation or in direct contact with the technology owners. eg Access to metalstorm is very tightly managed and participation by the US (even though they are now the majority financial investor) is still restricted in absolute terms.
again (eg) its only recently that the US was cleared to review australian stealth management-detection/signature/hypersonics/space/sensor technologies.
in 2004-2005, out of the 29 Foreign technologies that USG decided to "uptake" - 6 were australian.
Just as a small aside - the US doesn't fund military research in Australia. The normal process is as follows:
Since 9/11 DARPA/DoC/DoD/NAVSEA/USN/USAF/USArmy/USMC send out their dream teams (usually in Novermber) They arrange to assess various technologies that have been cleared for Friendly Foreign Forces privilege. If they are interested in respective technologies then they apply for participation.
This happens at the executive level, it doesn't happen in isolation or in direct contact with the technology owners. eg Access to metalstorm is very tightly managed and participation by the US (even though they are now the majority financial investor) is still restricted in absolute terms.
again (eg) its only recently that the US was cleared to review australian stealth management-detection/signature/hypersonics/space/sensor technologies.
in 2004-2005, out of the 29 Foreign technologies that USG decided to "uptake" - 6 were australian.
I actually think its growing quicker than it ever has.
The US military can kill 10-100 times more efficiently and accurately than even 10 years ago. Intelligence and computer links have made the US killing machine very efficient. UCAV and unmanned vehicles in the next coupel decades will further improve on this.
The enemy would be lucky if it grew two or three fold in that same decade. They mainly grew defensively but just updating old equipment.
If there is say a nuclear attack on US soil the US military budget will instantly grow to double or even tripple that of every entire country in world combined. We will see hundreds more F-22's, thousands of JSF's, all new multi purpose vehicles for the army, hypersonic bomber and those stealthy navy ships.
With the current budget most of these will not even see the light of day or be introduced with such few numbers that the old stuff has to be remain operational. This defeats the main purpose of the new equipment in that it will replace all the old stuff still being used.
The US was a sleeping giant and finally got angry in world war 2.
The man power advantage of countries like china will mean nothing in 10-20 years when you have robotic and unmanned vehicles doing the killing.
The title means nothing to me, it is an ID for DT members. It lets you know your not talking to a 13 year old punk... rather a punk who is 30ish. :shudder I'm not going to apologize for my stance on the US defense complex, it is superior to all... that is fact. It is not however infallible and neither am I. If I am not discussing aviation or general naval matters I am no expert. In landforces I know probably less than you. On international defense contracting I know even less. That doesn't mean I am not allowed to speak my mind just because I am not an expert. I come here to share knowledge and experience but more importantly to learn.
I'm sorry, I thought that was general knowledge... I am more than happy to show you where it goes.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Feb2005/d20050207budget.pdf
There was also an emergency spending bill for the war in Iraq which puts the total close to half a trillion. Global defense spending is about 1 trillion USD annually.
R&D reached record levels this year to the sum of $73 billion dollars. We spend more on research than most countries military expenditures.
http://www.aaas.org/spp/rd/ca06ag.htm
To tie this post back into this thread I think we should actually look at the projects PROC miltary infrastructure is undertaking and look at how well integrated they have made them. The AWACs project is a major bust to date, many experts were lost with the crash that set them back years. The inability to decide on a single architecture wreaks of misaligned appropriations and waste. The one thing PROC is good at is stealing technology, applying it is a completely different story. The B-2 IMO would be very hard to reverse engineer... it would have to be close to the original designs. The flying wing is no cake walk and PLAAF has little to no experience with avionics of this magnitude much less the intracasies stealth requires. They also have no physical frame to base it on, they don't have a captured B-2 or even a wrecked one. They would eventually figure it out, but by the time PLAAF was able to field a squadron it would be 2030. That tech would already be 50years old. There is a reason China spends billions on Russian weapon systems. If they could make it themselves they would.
Big E
This reminds me of 25 years ago when the Soviets stole a program made for the Tornado - several suitcases of punchcards!
I don't know how much it influenced the design of the Fencer; but they would have gained some insights.
The interesting thing is that they ran the risk - normally they turned over persons that tried to flog military secrets to the local military intelligence - which placed the Tornado as a critical project.
In my view it was - the Tornado would have wrecked havoc with the second and third wave of invasion - but this intelligence would have made them scratch their heads - and it might have been one of the factors that informed the Soviets that an invasion would be more difficult.
I for one think it is not solely a bad thing the Chinese got their hands on that information - as You point out they can't copy it - as the defence agains a stealth bomber, that is going to be halfways effective is going to be very, very expensive.
The Chinese economy has been lauded for its high growth rate; but it is shakier than that. It rests on the undervalue of the Chinese currency - and there is not such thing as cheap advanced weapons - especially if you have to import them with an undervalued currency.
When Walker betrayed the USA, the Soviets silenced their subs and made Your work more difficult - yes; but it was another nail in their economic coffin.
This reminds me of 25 years ago when the Soviets stole a program made for the Tornado - several suitcases of punchcards!
I don't know how much it influenced the design of the Fencer; but they would have gained some insights.
The interesting thing is that they ran the risk - normally they turned over persons that tried to flog military secrets to the local military intelligence - which placed the Tornado as a critical project.
In my view it was - the Tornado would have wrecked havoc with the second and third wave of invasion - but this intelligence would have made them scratch their heads - and it might have been one of the factors that informed the Soviets that an invasion would be more difficult.
I for one think it is not solely a bad thing the Chinese got their hands on that information - as You point out they can't copy it - as the defence agains a stealth bomber, that is going to be halfways effective is going to be very, very expensive.
The Chinese economy has been lauded for its high growth rate; but it is shakier than that. It rests on the undervalue of the Chinese currency - and there is not such thing as cheap advanced weapons - especially if you have to import them with an undervalued currency.
When Walker betrayed the USA, the Soviets silenced their subs and made Your work more difficult - yes; but it was another nail in their economic coffin.
Big-E just hit the point when he claimed that nobody can cope with the US.
It is amazing how fast they go forward with the gap getting wider and wider.
As metioned before there are some fields were some countries reached parity or even a slight advantage over the US but overall this does not mean much.
The overall capabilities of the US are not near to being reached by anybody.
Not even the combined EU comes close to this and despite all the China hype it is still the second largest economical and highest developed area behind the US.
It is amazing how fast they go forward with the gap getting wider and wider.
As metioned before there are some fields were some countries reached parity or even a slight advantage over the US but overall this does not mean much.
The overall capabilities of the US are not near to being reached by anybody.
Not even the combined EU comes close to this and despite all the China hype it is still the second largest economical and highest developed area behind the US.
Perhaps, but you do realise that the more mechanisation, the less control we have. Perhaps the UCAV development is the final, and inevitable destination we will arrive to. Maybe one day we will finally give up all of our control to the machine. And the next thing we know, it turns against us.... (cue the Terminator music)
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God only knows how US treat Al-qida prisoners~~~
US is not the moral highland as all evidence leads to negative
All the empire just a shooting star in the eyes of history.It all right to claim US are overwhelming now, but as chinese proverb say: when everything goes to peak,it s downfall will not be far.Ourselves has witness the greatest glory and shame in the centuries passed by.
I believe if EU fully develop it s military potential , she can be equal to US . and maybe 50 years later , china or india can challenge US too.
Those who claim we are only expert in stealing tech should be packed back to school to re-educate about history. Gunpowder ,print,paper, crossbow, box-and-needle`````how many was stolen from china. And we are spending less and less on russian weapon when we found we can do better than them in many field .We ve lost to the modern world for nearly 50 years in 1900. now we managed to make it up in last 20 years by our own hardworking and wisdom. Copy from the teacher is just a way to learn and one day we will surpass our teacher.
I believe if EU fully develop it s military potential , she can be equal to US . and maybe 50 years later , china or india can challenge US too.
Those who claim we are only expert in stealing tech should be packed back to school to re-educate about history. Gunpowder ,print,paper, crossbow, box-and-needle`````how many was stolen from china. And we are spending less and less on russian weapon when we found we can do better than them in many field .We ve lost to the modern world for nearly 50 years in 1900. now we managed to make it up in last 20 years by our own hardworking and wisdom. Copy from the teacher is just a way to learn and one day we will surpass our teacher.
Waylander: I quite agree.
dioditto: That is precisely where You are wrong: The more automatisation the better control!
Those who deplore the deads from autoaccidents should take a look at how many died in riding accidents 100 years ago.
If You take robots in production - they are so much in control that manual production is getting outdated, as humans cannot work to the precision - besides it gives the costoumer more control over the product.
Automated firing sequences give a lot more control, as the pilot (or whoever) time to control what he is shooting at instead of looking for the matches.
dioditto: That is precisely where You are wrong: The more automatisation the better control!
Those who deplore the deads from autoaccidents should take a look at how many died in riding accidents 100 years ago.
If You take robots in production - they are so much in control that manual production is getting outdated, as humans cannot work to the precision - besides it gives the costoumer more control over the product.
Automated firing sequences give a lot more control, as the pilot (or whoever) time to control what he is shooting at instead of looking for the matches.
ever 4244:"when everything goes to peak,it s downfall will not be far"
I like proverbs; but this is inane.
I would not be a peak, if there wasn't a downside all around it.
As things stand now, I can see only the a steady uphill road ahead.
It is not to bash You, ever 4244, but it annoys me when people talk of the debauchery of roman emperors in the early roman empire as a sure indication of the inevitable downfall of the world order.
This is tantamount to saying that the demise of the USA in 500 years due to global heating was caused by president Clinton having trouble finding out which hole to stick a cigar into!
Longviety is longviety and nothing but that. China has persisted for millenia; but that doesn't mean that they won't collapse in 5 or 10 years. No long term business prospect is worth investing in if you are closed down tomorrow for defaulting.
What we can see is that USA is spending far to much money in Iraq - this is in itself not a problem; but to many more engagements like that may bleed of some wealth - if the USA does not consider more economical ways to persue their target - which they probably will.
The strength of democracy is not continuity - it is getting rid of bad and outlived solutions before they mess things up to badly. How You interpret this is Your business.
I like proverbs; but this is inane.
I would not be a peak, if there wasn't a downside all around it.
As things stand now, I can see only the a steady uphill road ahead.
It is not to bash You, ever 4244, but it annoys me when people talk of the debauchery of roman emperors in the early roman empire as a sure indication of the inevitable downfall of the world order.
This is tantamount to saying that the demise of the USA in 500 years due to global heating was caused by president Clinton having trouble finding out which hole to stick a cigar into!
Longviety is longviety and nothing but that. China has persisted for millenia; but that doesn't mean that they won't collapse in 5 or 10 years. No long term business prospect is worth investing in if you are closed down tomorrow for defaulting.
What we can see is that USA is spending far to much money in Iraq - this is in itself not a problem; but to many more engagements like that may bleed of some wealth - if the USA does not consider more economical ways to persue their target - which they probably will.
The strength of democracy is not continuity - it is getting rid of bad and outlived solutions before they mess things up to badly. How You interpret this is Your business.
Not quite. As we build robots for battle, it has to become smarter, AND SMARTER. This is not a simple mechanism of automated fire control anymore, the AI will have to start figuring out complex pattern and strategies as the opposing side will do the same, and soon, as competition bears the fruit of advances, AI will evolute by itself. (they already are in many labs..rudimentary genetic algorithms) It will soon beyond human level of comprehension, and THAT, is exactly where we lost our control.
It is true the US is streets ahead of Europe and Japan, but this is only because of diliberate policy desicions taken in the two regions. The fact of the matter is the regions best equiped to compete militarally with the US have effectively been demilitarlised zones(the greatest truimph of american post war policy). At the moment the US's biggest compeditor is a country that was recently 3th world and still is in vast areas.
You can look into the future and say that there is no real compeditor out there with the tech to overtake the states, but this really depends on policy in the EU and Japan being kept in stasis, which wont happen.
The reason which tied Europe The US and Japan together in the postwar period are slowly disappearing, and with it American dominance.
Bottom line there is nothing inevitable about America's continued domination of the military plane. After the 2nd world war they were the worlds economic giants, not anymore, the Japanese more productive, the EU larger, the far east growing faster. Politically they are no longer the force they once were, they cannot even impose there will over a small country like the Lebanon, there major allies(apart from the British) deserted the over the Iraq issue, and not only that activley opposed them. American political capital has never been so low.
I'm not having a go at the States, but the military is the only plane left were you mantain a significant advantage, if your lead in other areas can be reeled in, do you really think that you military advantage will continue to grow?
And in the end the invasion of Iraq, the biggest undertaking since vietnam, has failed. Like Vietnam you have won every battle and lost the war. Your militay has proformed wonders, but it has had no effect on the outcome, In the end its been a political and military failure. At least you could maintan order in siagon.
You can look into the future and say that there is no real compeditor out there with the tech to overtake the states, but this really depends on policy in the EU and Japan being kept in stasis, which wont happen.
The reason which tied Europe The US and Japan together in the postwar period are slowly disappearing, and with it American dominance.
true, but it's economy is actually larger than the US economy. How long do you think it would take to catch up with the US if the EU had a single MOD and procurrement policy? and do you think that might happen in the next 20 or years? I think it is a def possiblity.
Bottom line there is nothing inevitable about America's continued domination of the military plane. After the 2nd world war they were the worlds economic giants, not anymore, the Japanese more productive, the EU larger, the far east growing faster. Politically they are no longer the force they once were, they cannot even impose there will over a small country like the Lebanon, there major allies(apart from the British) deserted the over the Iraq issue, and not only that activley opposed them. American political capital has never been so low.
I'm not having a go at the States, but the military is the only plane left were you mantain a significant advantage, if your lead in other areas can be reeled in, do you really think that you military advantage will continue to grow?
And in the end the invasion of Iraq, the biggest undertaking since vietnam, has failed. Like Vietnam you have won every battle and lost the war. Your militay has proformed wonders, but it has had no effect on the outcome, In the end its been a political and military failure. At least you could maintan order in siagon.
EU is for sure not able to cope with US even if it tried.
Just look at the GDP or how many new inventions are announced annually in the US and the EU.
And despite the talking about China for some years it also has its problems and if they are not solved they could struggle as easily as everybody. Just look at how fast the economical bubble in south east asia blasted away.
It is not said that in 50 years China is going to be on top. Nobody can take this as a given fact.
You just cannot look that far into the future.
One or two years ago for example germany was said to be the loser of europe. Not nearly all of the problems are gone but suddenly we gave th red lantern away and are going to have a economical growth of ca. 3,4% in the last quarter of this year.
And these 3,4% are much more than twice the growth of most countries in the world.
Maybe in three years we are again at 1% growth.
Maybe China struggles because of too many poor people compared to a small amount of rich people. Or people want more freedom and free elections. Or because of environmental polution.
Who knows.
Whe are just able to look at the present and ealborate some models for the future but if it comes to global future these models are not that good.
Just look at the GDP or how many new inventions are announced annually in the US and the EU.
And despite the talking about China for some years it also has its problems and if they are not solved they could struggle as easily as everybody. Just look at how fast the economical bubble in south east asia blasted away.
It is not said that in 50 years China is going to be on top. Nobody can take this as a given fact.
You just cannot look that far into the future.
One or two years ago for example germany was said to be the loser of europe. Not nearly all of the problems are gone but suddenly we gave th red lantern away and are going to have a economical growth of ca. 3,4% in the last quarter of this year.
And these 3,4% are much more than twice the growth of most countries in the world.
Maybe in three years we are again at 1% growth.
Maybe China struggles because of too many poor people compared to a small amount of rich people. Or people want more freedom and free elections. Or because of environmental polution.
Who knows.
Whe are just able to look at the present and ealborate some models for the future but if it comes to global future these models are not that good.
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