Australian Army to increase by 2,600

[Whiskyjack]

I see the below story:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Army-to-get-extra-2600-soldiers/2006/08/24/1156012642165.html

An extra two Battalions, 1 Mech and 1 Light.

The Mech to be based in Adelaide, which begs the question will 3 RAR be re-rolled from para now?

The Mech Battalion is to be operational by 2010.

 

[The_Jet]

From what I heard the 3RAR is moving from Sydney to Townsville

 

[RubiconNZ]

Moving

Oh Sorry jet edited my mistake youre right, they are moving them to Townsville as Light Infantry, what a waste you might as well keep a capability such as para, specially when you are moving to the larger size and if you have a army of twos the paras are the closest to being the 4th RAR's double.

 

[Whiskyjack]

From what I heard the 3RAR is moving from Sydney to Townsville

They were to be re rolled to a Mech battalion as well, I just wonder whether that will go ahead now.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Well

If they are splitting the 5/7th then it makes sense the second mech batt will come from there. I would assume they will leave the 3rd Para, or the new Brisbane batt could be the new para unit, based near RAAF Amberly with the new C17's which well could lift all the personnel well in one lift just about. Or they leave the 3rd para where is and the new inf batt in qld becomes light infantry as is most likely. Perhaps this will end the Intergrated Regular/Reserve ness of the 7th Brigade, As they would then have the 6th, plus I suppose they could separate the 25/49th and reactivate the 25th to regular the 2/14th is now completely regular.

7th Brigade = 25th RAR
6th RAR
2/14th LHR
1st Field Regiment R/R

2 Combat Engineer Regiment
7 Combat Support Regiment
7 Combat Service Support Battalion
I think these are regular reserve mixed but they could that way


Rather well rounded force plus the ability to draw on the 9th RQR, 49 RQR.

Good news all round, I imagine the first step would be to encourage the Reservists to go full time a couple of well placed incentives would not go amiss.

This news along with the cancellation of deferment Land Project 17 is fantastic. Back to a 2008, Acquisition of SP Artillery, 50 odd Air transportable 155s and a gpm capability to introduced with it.
I hope some more Bushmasters will be purchased for the 7th however cause its leaves the 7th rather light.

 

[Whiskyjack]

If they are splitting the 5/7th then it makes sense the second mech batt will come from there. I would assume they will leave the 3rd Para, or the new Brisbane batt could be the new para unit, based near RAAF Amberly with the new C17's which well could lift all the personnel well in one lift just about. Or they leave the 3rd para where is and the new inf batt in qld becomes light infantry as is most likely. Perhaps this will end the Intergrated Regular/Reserve ness of the 7th Brigade, As they would then have the 6th, plus I suppose they could separate the 25/49th and reactivate the 25th to regular the 2/14th is now completely regular.

7th Brigade = 25th RAR
6th RAR
2/14th LHR
1st Field Regiment R/R

2 Combat Engineer Regiment
7 Combat Support Regiment
7 Combat Service Support Battalion
I think these are regular reserve mixed but they could that way


Rather well rounded force plus the ability to draw on the 9th RQR, 49 RQR.

Good news all round, I imagine the first step would be to encourage the Reservists to go full time a couple of well placed incentives would not go amiss.

This news along with the cancellation of deferment Land Project 17 is fantastic. Back to a 2008, Acquisition of SP Artillery, 50 odd Air transportable 155s and a gpm capability to introduced with it.
I hope some more Bushmasters will be purchased for the 7th however cause its leaves the 7th rather light.

I am not an expert on the Australian Army, this news would give the Army the following Orbat:

2 Mech Battalions
4 Light Battalions
1 Para Battalion(?)
1 Commando Battalion
1 Tank Regiment
2 Cav Regiments
1 Armed Helo Regiment
1 transport helo Regiment

Happy to be corrected on this.

 

[RubiconNZ]

reading the plan

Well it looks like they will establish the 8/9th RAR, I wonder what will happen to the 9th RQR, will they deactivate it or change its name.

Nope they are getting rid of the paras, the plan is movement of the 3rd to Townsville, I don't like it, however with the intro of the big deck amphibs I guess its another amphib capable unit (higher trained)

So its:
5 Lights
2 Mechs
1 Commando
1 SASR
1 Armoured Reg
2 Calvary Reg
1 Armed Helo
1 Transport Helo Reg

 

[Whiskyjack]

Well it looks like they will establish the 8/9th RAR, I wonder what will happen to the 9th RQR, will they deactivate it or change its name.

Sorry, where is the plan?

 

[RubiconNZ]

Oh sorry here it is:

Defence Home Page

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2006/aug/20060824/regular_infantry_battalions.htm

and the direct release which is similar to the article you gave:

http://www.pm.gov.au/news/media_Releases/media_Release2091.html

 

[Whiskyjack]

Defence Home Page

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2006/aug/20060824/regular_infantry_battalions.htm

and the direct release which is similar to the article you gave:

http://www.pm.gov.au/news/media_Releases/media_Release2091.html

Thanks, should have looked there myself!

 

[Aussie Digger]

3RAR is losing the Para role. Whilst it "seems" like a great idea, with in excess of 100 "major" injuries a year it is a waste, IMHO.

I know ex-3RAR blokes won't like it, but look at it this way, we've NEVER used our parachute capability (even that inherent within our special forces) and even at their best 3RAR has never provided more than a single "ready company group" capable of conducting parachute operations.

On top of this our Air Force doesn't have the airlift capacity to support to a battalion group strength parachute based insertion anyway...

My only complaint with this plan is the lack of details from Army. Surely they were consulted on this plan before the PM announced it? If not, why the blank look and no comment from Lt. Gen HURLEY when this announcement was made?

Is 7th Brigade to be equipped with 4x infantry battalions, or will the 6th Brigade be raised again? If the 6th brigade is re-raised (with either reserve or regular battalions) what units are to be raised to support this new brigade (ie: combat support and combat engineering?)

Why are there so many light infantry battalions but so few helicopters or Bushmaster IMV's? Are 6RAR and 8/9RAR simply to be used to provide "rotational" forces and no independant capability beyond basic foot-slogging within this wide brown land of ours??? Will Project "Overlander" be increased to provide a sort of "half and half" capability?

Are there to be any additional artillery units to support the new battalions??? If so, what are they to be equipped with and will Land 17 be expanded to support the additional 2x batteries that will be needed as a minimum with new generation weapons?

I like this idea, particularly the funding (an extra $10b just for this plan) but there are MANY additional details I would like to see...

 

[RubiconNZ]

3RAR is losing the Para role. Whilst it "seems" like a great idea, with in excess of 100 "major" injuries a year it is a waste, IMHO.

:roll2 Yeah, that does make it pretty costly


On top of this our Air Force doesn't have the airlift capacity to support to a battalion group strength parachute based insertion anyway...[/QUOTE]

Really 3 C17's 8 C130s for example isn't enough?

My only complaint with this plan is the lack of details from Army. Surely they were consulted on this plan before the PM announced it? If not, why the blank look and no comment from Lt. Gen HURLEY when this announcement was made?

Maybe he just found out that morning :laugh

Is 7th Brigade to be equipped with 4x infantry battalions, or will the 6th Brigade be raised again? If the 6th brigade is re-raised (with either reserve or regular battalions) what units are to be raised to support this new brigade (ie: combat support and combat engineering?)

Well I think they'll keep the 7th as is, any major deployment of the 7th would esentially require deployment of the JFHQ which is apparently division capable so....

Why are there so many light infantry battalions but so few helicopters or Bushmaster IMV's? Are 6RAR and 8/9RAR simply to be used to provide "rotational" forces and no independant capability beyond basic foot-slogging within this wide brown land of ours??? Will Project "Overlander" be increased to provide a sort of "half and half" capability?

Exactly my concern, great for sending to the Pacific Islands, but for home defense? Its great the 2/14 is now a full time unit, but it is the only credible transport for the entire Brigade, if it was to be used that way which it isn't really meant to be. Keep the Bushmaster line open in my opinion, another 300 and provide a motorised capability as needed. for the 3rd or 7th Brigade.

Are there to be any additional artillery units to support the new battalions??? If so, what are they to be equipped with and will Land 17 be expanded to support the additional 2x batteries that will be needed as a minimum with new generation weapons?

Aparently not yet although it could be argued the SP arty is additional, so you could move the regular tubes to make the difference. Though that is just speculation by me.


Yeah the 2 infantry Battalions are great but as you say the required support will be the interesting bit mainly for the 2nd battallion, care to predict inservice date, I'm guessing 2013-14. Does anyone believe/heard if they are talking about de intergrating the 7th Brigade, though its seems unlikely with the boost of the High Readiness reserve although..

 

[Ozymandias]

So our (full time) brigades will consist of:

1st Brigade
1st Armored
2nd Cavalry
5 RAR
7 RAR
8/12 Medium
1st CER
1st CS
1st CSS

3rd Brigade
1 RAR
2 RAR
3 RAR
B Squadron 3/4 Cavalry
4 Field
3rd CER
3rd CS
3rd CSS

7th Brigade
6 RAR
8/9 RAR
25/49 RQR
2/14 Light Horse
1 Field
2nd CER
2nd CS
2nd CSS

is that about the size of things?

 

[Whiskyjack]

So our (full time) brigades will consist of:

1st Brigade
1st Armored
2nd Cavalry
5 RAR
7 RAR
8/12 Medium
1st CER
1st CS
1st CSS

3rd Brigade
1 RAR
2 RAR
3 RAR
B Squadron 3/4 Cavalry
4 Field
3rd CER
3rd CS
3rd CSS

7th Brigade
6 RAR
8/9 RAR
25/49 RQR
2/14 Light Horse
1 Field
2nd CER
2nd CS
2nd CSS

is that about the size of things?

So of these units the 25/49 RQR is reserve and the rest are regular?

 

[Aussie Digger]

So our (full time) brigades will consist of:

1st Brigade
1st Armored
2nd Cavalry
5 RAR
7 RAR
8/12 Medium
1st CER
1st CS
1st CSS

3rd Brigade
1 RAR
2 RAR
3 RAR
B Squadron 3/4 Cavalry
4 Field
3rd CER
3rd CS
3rd CSS

7th Brigade
6 RAR
8/9 RAR
25/49 RQR
2/14 Light Horse
1 Field
2nd CER
2nd CS
2nd CSS

is that about the size of things?

7th Brigade also includes 9RQR, 20th STA Regiment, 1 JSU, Deployable JFHQ, 1 Topo Regt, a field Hospital (whose number escapes me).

1 Brigade also has 1 Aviation Regt (though it is currently under 16 AAvn Brigade it will apparently be moved under the OOB of 1 Brigade much in the way 3RAR used to float "between" 1 Brigade and 3 Brigade depending on who was commanding Army at the time)... 1 Brigade also as 7 Sig Regt (EW).

3 Brigade will also have 5 Avn Regt in the same way 1 Brigade has 1 Avn Regt (as will 16 AAvn Brigade)...

And some people are confused by all this. Sheesh...

Whiskey, 25/49RQR is currently the main integrated reg/reserve battalion of 7th Brigade. 6RAR also has some reserve elements, but 9RQR is all reserve. 8/9RQR will be formed from the regular component of 25/49RQR, which will then return to an entirely reserve formation (apart from the regular Cadre staff, which all "chocco" units have).

This is why I suggested that 6 Brigade may be re-raised as 7th Brigade is a rather large formation without it wouldn't you say??? One of the Brigades either 6 or 7 would then become an entirely reserve brigade, just like the way things were in the mid 90's just before 8/9RAR was sh*tcanned in the first place.

Ah how times change eh? The DJFHQ and the reg battalions, 2/14LHR etc would go to the new Brigade and 9RQR, 25/49RQR would form the other Brigade.

As to the artillery issue, the new guns are replacements not additions. Army wants to move to an ALL 155mm artillery force, unfortunately it does not have enough guns in-service or on order to do this (there are 11x batteries in the current OOB, if this plan goes ahead it will increase to 13x "line unit" Batteries).

This would mean that we would need 78x 155mm guns just for the line batteries, another 6-12 guns for the School of Artillery (as 53 independant battery which supports the school, needs guns as does the school itself) plus the usual warstock/attrition pieces that are bought in such programs.

As such I can easily up to 100 guns being needed. the current 36x M198's will have to be retained but this means that up to 64x new guns will be required to be purchased. Can anyone see this happening? Land 17 certainly isn't funded to buy that many new guns, unless they intend to buy additional "2nd hand" M198's for reserve units, 3 Brigade and 7 Brigade (as only 1 Brigade will get SPG's likely).

Hence my earlier comment about "details"...

IN relation to the para issue, it's not just fitting digs into the back of planes that matters. Airforce COULD fit ALL of 3RAR into Hercules and obviously the 4x C-17's when they come online. But 3RAR needs "A" Battery to support it (A Bty is also para qualified at present) CSSB units to provide support as well as signals and other support units. THEN they need to be "re-supped" as such, the entire fleet if that would be required to support such an operation, particularly if it were any sort of distance from Australia and ot a "Timor"type scenario.

This is fine, so long as the REST of ADF, including special forces, 5 Avn Regt, 16 AD Regt etc don't happen to need any airlift at that time for this operation...

Can you start to see why 3RAR only maintained a "Coy" level parachute group?

 

[Whiskyjack]

Okay, let me get this straight, I am a little slow here sorry

What we are looking at here in 2016 is essentially three brigades consisting of:

1 Mech Brigade:

• 2x mech
• 1 x armrd
• 1x Cav

1 Light brigade with:

• 3 x Light Bat

1 light with:

• 2 x light
• 1 x Cav

each with Engineers, Arty, logs etc

Added to this there are Aviation Regiments as well?

I am completely lost on the reserves as well...they integrate into the existing regular or they have reserve brigades?

 

[Ozymandias]

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9059/ADF.html

bear in mind it was last updated in 2004. Among other things, 2/14 light horse is a regular formation.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Okay, let me get this straight, I am a little slow here sorry

What we are looking at here in 2016 is essentially three brigades consisting of:

1 Mech Brigade:

• 2x mech
• 1 x armrd
• 1x Cav

1 Light brigade with:

• 3 x Light Bat

1 light with:

• 2 x light
• 1 x Cav

each with Engineers, Arty, logs etc

Added to this there are Aviation Regiments as well?

I am completely lost on the reserves as well...they integrate into the existing regular or they have reserve brigades?

That basic formation appears to be correct. Each Brigade obviously has it's own signals, combat engineer, combat support battalions and artillery as well.

6RAR and 8/9RAR might become motorised/light infantry if sufficient funding is available for additional Bushmasters. This is one of the "details" we are all still awaiting.

There are dedicated reserve briagdes as well. Each are a little different due to funding constraints etc but include: 4th Brigade, 5th Brigade, 8th Brigade, 9th Brigade and 13th Brigade. Plus 16th Aviation Brigade. Most of these Brigades have: 2x light infantry battalions, an Artillery Regiment or 2x "independant" artillery Batteries, a Light Horse, Lancers or Mounted rifles unit (all providing "light Cavalry capability) plus support units.

7th Brigade is unique in Army as it permanently has integrated reserve/regular units. Most other brigades are either "all regular" or "all reserve" except that all reserve units have a "Cadre" or "core" of regular soldiers attached.

However only within 7 Brigade will you find ACTUAL units that have reserve and regular soldiers performing the same roles within the same sub-unit (25/49 RQR is the best example of this). This will change however under the new plan.

The Australian Army is divided into the following

LAND COMMAND:

- 1st Division (comprising 1,3,4 and 7th Brigades and DJFHQ).

- 2nd Division (comprising 5,8,9 and 13th Brigades).

- 16th Aviation Brigade (Brigade HQ, 1 Aviation Regiment, 5 Aviation Regiment and Army School of Aviation).

- Regional Force Surveillance Units (RFSU's - Pilbara Regiment, 51 Far North Queensland Regiment and "NORFORCE" - [North West Mobile Force])

- 16 Air Defence Regiment. (110 and 111 Batteries). 16 AAvn Bde and 16 AD Regt and RFSU's are "direct command" units for Land Command and are not commanded by 1 or 2 Divisions.

Special Operations COMMAND:

- Special Air Services Regiment.

- 4RAR Commando (Battalion).

- 1st Commando Regiment.

- Incident Response Regiment.

- Tactical Assault Group - West (manned by SASR).

- Tactical Assault Group - East (manned by SASR/4RAR).

- Special Operations Combat Support Squadron.

- 152 Signals Squadron (supports SASR).

- 126 Signals Squadron (supports 4RAR and 1 Cmdo Regt).

There is also Training COMMAND which operates the various Corps School (School of infantry, armour etc) plus 1 Recruit Training Battalion (Kapooka) and other training establishments.

There is also: 17th Combat Support Regiment which I understand was formerly known as "Support COMMAND". This unit provides major logistical support for all of Army and is another "direct command unit".

It's all a bit complicated I know. Hopefully I got all this right, (it's off the top of my head) I hate it when I forget things or they move...

​

 

[Whiskyjack]

That basic formation appears to be correct. Each Brigade obviously has it's own signals, combat engineer, combat support battalions and artillery as well.

6RAR and 8/9RAR might become motorised/light infantry if sufficient funding is available for additional Bushmasters. This is one of the "details" we are all still awaiting.

There are dedicated reserve briagdes as well. Each are a little different due to funding constraints etc but include: 4th Brigade, 5th Brigade, 8th Brigade, 9th Brigade and 13th Brigade. Plus 16th Aviation Brigade. Most of these Brigades have: 2x light infantry battalions, an Artillery Regiment or 2x "independant" artillery Batteries, a Light Horse, Lancers or Mounted rifles unit (all providing "light Cavalry capability) plus support units.

7th Brigade is unique in Army as it permanently has integrated reserve/regular units. Most other brigades are either "all regular" or "all reserve" except that all reserve units have a "Cadre" or "core" of regular soldiers attached.

However only within 7 Brigade will you find ACTUAL units that have reserve and regular soldiers performing the same roles within the same sub-unit (25/49 RQR is the best example of this). This will change however under the new plan.

The Australian Army is divided into the following

LAND COMMAND:

- 1st Division (comprising 1,3,4 and 7th Brigades and DJFHQ).

- 2nd Division (comprising 5,8,9 and 13th Brigades).

- 16th Aviation Brigade (Brigade HQ, 1 Aviation Regiment, 5 Aviation Regiment and Army School of Aviation).

- Regional Force Surveillance Units (RFSU's - Pilbara Regiment, 51 Far North Queensland Regiment and "NORFORCE" - [North West Mobile Force])

- 16 Air Defence Regiment. (110 and 111 Batteries). 16 AAvn Bde and 16 AD Regt and RFSU's are "direct command" units for Land Command and are not commanded by 1 or 2 Divisions.

Special Operations COMMAND:

- Special Air Services Regiment.

- 4RAR Commando (Battalion).

- 1st Commando Regiment.

- Incident Response Regiment.

- Tactical Assault Group - West (manned by SASR).

- Tactical Assault Group - East (manned by SASR/4RAR).

- Special Operations Combat Support Squadron.

- 152 Signals Squadron (supports SASR).

- 126 Signals Squadron (supports 4RAR and 1 Cmdo Regt).

There is also Training COMMAND which operates the various Corps School (School of infantry, armour etc) plus 1 Recruit Training Battalion (Kapooka) and other training establishments.

There is also: 17th Combat Support Regiment which I understand was formerly known as "Support COMMAND". This unit provides major logistical support for all of Army and is another "direct command unit".

It's all a bit complicated I know. Hopefully I got all this right, (it's off the top of my head) I hate it when I forget things or they move...


​

Thanks for that, it all becomes clearer.

I have been in Sydney for the last month on business, and compared to NZ I can really notice a difference in attitudes towards defence.

 

[old faithful]

3RAR is losing the Para role. Whilst it "seems" like a great idea, with in excess of 100 "major" injuries a year it is a waste, IMHO.

I know ex-3RAR blokes won't like it, but look at it this way, we've NEVER used our parachute capability (even that inherent within our special forces) and even at their best 3RAR has never provided more than a single "ready company group" capable of conducting parachute operations.

On top of this our Air Force doesn't have the airlift capacity to support to a battalion group strength parachute based insertion anyway...

My only complaint with this plan is the lack of details from Army. Surely they were consulted on this plan before the PM announced it? If not, why the blank look and no comment from Lt. Gen HURLEY when this announcement was made?

Is 7th Brigade to be equipped with 4x infantry battalions, or will the 6th Brigade be raised again? If the 6th brigade is re-raised (with either reserve or regular battalions) what units are to be raised to support this new brigade (ie: combat support and combat engineering?)

Why are there so many light infantry battalions but so few helicopters or Bushmaster IMV's? Are 6RAR and 8/9RAR simply to be used to provide "rotational" forces and no independant capability beyond basic foot-slogging within this wide brown land of ours??? Will Project "Overlander" be increased to provide a sort of "half and half" capability?

Are there to be any additional artillery units to support the new battalions??? If so, what are they to be equipped with and will Land 17 be expanded to support the additional 2x batteries that will be needed as a minimum with new generation weapons?

I like this idea, particularly the funding (an extra $10b just for this plan) but there are MANY additional details I would like to see...

You are right here about ex 3RAR blokes not liking it! And you are wrong about never using the capability too! A Coy 3RAR deployed by parachute during a politicly sensitive time in 1986. The group was deployed to the cocos island group (Keeling Isl) as a show of force to to Indonesia who claimed that if the wanted (souvrenty) there was nothing Australia could do about it. Having said this, the para capability would be better served by 3RAR becoming a sister to 4RAR in the Commando role. It would just be a case of retaining the suitable members of the Bn who are suitable(and willing) to meet spec war requirments,thus giving Aust a spec war brigade. Keep 1 and 2RAR as light bns. Split 5 and 7 as mech. Turn 6,8 and 9 to Marines. This would be a good mix for me. Spec war deployments have been frequent,and anoyher Commando Bn would allow a better rotation in the middle east,Afghan and Pacific,whilst retaining a solid CT pressence in Aust. # marine bns would allow a rotation at sea. And the mech brigade,light Inf brigade would allow deployments at short notice in our region and a heavy punch if required. What d,ya think mate?