Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Stampede]

This project is not about increasing load carrying capacity, it is about being able to do the job the LCM-8 has been doing for the last 40 years but with vastly superior Seakeeping, speed, range, crew and passenger facilities such as a proper Galley, sleeping and bathroom quarters, storage, working areas for mission planning etc, able to fit CIWS. I have spent time on an LCM-8 and the facilities consisted of an under-deck area with no facilities at all and the crew was sleeping on stretchers. It's about being able to conduct longer missions away from support and decreasing crew fatigue.
Landing Craft Utility (LCU) 1700-class Vessels, USA (naval-technology.com)
The USN LCU-1700 is designed around operating alongside major Amphibious ships, thus is a Ro-Ro design. The Birdon LMV-M, while capable of operating with the big Amphibs is designed around independent ops, doing beach/boat ramps to beach/BR missions, thus is not a Ro-Ro design, which would be useless in most cases.

Thanks for your reply and your service
I appreciate the LCU is more of a connector with some independant capability rather than a truly self supporting craft which we are looking at for the LCM
That said it does give some indication for load carrying capacity for a given size

it will be interesting to know what the new LCM load / range dynamics are because we are investing a lot of coin in this project and would expect a good return

I am not underestimating the importance of good accomodation facility’s and the other service requirements to sustain operations but I never saw these vessels as a lcm 8 replacement
They are over 100 percent bigger than these craft and are a league of there own
More of an LCH

It’s load carry capacity must be commensurate with its size

a lot of vessel and crew to carry just one mbt or two ifv or four bushmasters

LCH I get, just schools out on the LCM

hopeful I’m pleasantly surprised.

cheers s

 

[Armchair]

It’s load carry capacity must be commensurate with its size

a lot of vessel and crew to carry just one mbt or two ifv or four bushmasters

LCH I get, just schools out on the LCM

hopeful I’m pleasantly surprised.

cheers s

imagine a battle group deployed somewhere in Australia’s northern approaches in a location where the ADF has air superiority and local sea control. An LC-M as part of that force might never be involved in landing armour for an amphibious assault but spend all their time resupplying missile batteries or shifting infantry platoons from one friendly island to another.

in other words although the vessels being acquired look like landing craft that have been traditionally used in amphibious assaults they also look like logistic barges that are used in parts of the world without good port facilities. The LC-Ms are the military version of the latter. For a fair chunk of the Australian Army that reflects the way that they are now anticipated to manoeuvre (previously mass sea and air lift to friendly port in distant continent and then drive to combat, now short sea lift to friendly island and threaten adversaries). Most of the time they will be used in operations other than war and in those operations the level of amenity Redlands refers to will be critical for keeping people safe and well.

 

[Stampede]

imagine a battle group deployed somewhere in Australia’s northern approaches in a location where the ADF has air superiority and local sea control. An LC-M as part of that force might never be involved in landing armour for an amphibious assault but spend all their time resupplying missile batteries or shifting infantry platoons from one friendly island to another.

in other words although the vessels being acquired look like landing craft that have been traditionally used in amphibious assaults they also look like logistic barges that are used in parts of the world without good port facilities. The LC-Ms are the military version of the latter. For a fair chunk of the Australian Army that reflects the way that they are now anticipated to manoeuvre (previously mass sea and air lift to friendly port in distant continent and then drive to combat, now short sea lift to friendly island and threaten adversaries). Most of the time they will be used in operations other than war and in those operations the level of amenity Redlands refers to will be critical for keeping people safe and well.

Thanks

I concur most of the time the LCM would be for the transport of “light stuff “

Anyway the proof will be in the detail of the final design.

Cheers S

 

[spoz]

From the article posted above. It clarifies that it's going to be a circa vessel of 3000t displacement with 500-600t carrying capacity. Not a Tobruk / Chinese type 072a sized vessel.

As noted on the RAN thread, 3000 tons is closer to Tobruk, which was 3353, than the old LCHs which were 364. Both of those measures are standard displacement which is the normal way to describe a warship. If the 3000 is full load rather than standard, with a capacity of 500 tons, then her standard would be something around 1800-2000 - about the displacement of a WW2 destroyer.

The full load of the LSMs the Army ran in the 60s was around 900; standard was about 540. The comments by HLC seem to indicate there is a recognition that, in the modern environment, they will need self protection measures; that means sensors and effectors both physical and electronic, which in turn require dedicated weight, space and volume, and more for the trained people to use them; hence their standard-to full load ratio is unlikely to be as good as the LSMs or Tobruk. Even if it was they would probably be around the 1800 ton mark if that is what the 3000 figure is.

 

[Redlands18]

As noted on the RAN thread, 3000 tons is closer to Tobruk, which was 3353, than the old LCHs which were 364. Both of those measures are standard displacement which is the normal way to describe a warship. If the 3000 is full load rather than standard, with a capacity of 500 tons, then her standard would be something around 1800-2000 - about the displacement of a WW2 destroyer. The full load of the LSMs the Army ran in the 60s was under 1000; standard was about 540.

The article is about an interview with the Head of Land Capability, so not a Water Transport specialist, so may make the mistake of quoting the wrong displacement figure.

 

[spoz]

The article is about an interview with the Head of Land Capability, so not a Water Transport specialist, so may make the mistake of quoting the wrong displacement figure.

Oh, agreed. But he is still talking about a much bigger ship than the old LCHs

 

[SammyC]

Certainly bigger than the old Balikpapan, but not as big as Tobruk. They are looking for something with a 500 tonne payload and a range of 2,500 nm from what is available in media releases. No information on troop capacity, but if it's designed to carry up to 11 Redbacks, then that's about 100-120 personnel.

Old Tobruk had a cargo capacity of about 1,500 tonnes, was capable of taking about 300-500 troops and could go about 8,000 nm. So all in all Tobruk was about three times the intended rating of the proposed LCHs.

The Bali's in comparison would do about 150 tonne cargo for a 350 tonne vessel and a range of 3,000 nm.

TBH a 3,000 tonne ship (even if this is the full load rating) seems excessively big for a 500 tonne payload. Tobruk was 3,500 tonnes light and 5,500 tonnes heavy and 130 metres long. I would have thought the LCHs would have been about the 2,000 tonnes light, giving something in the range of 3,000 tonnes heavy with cargo and fuel. Maybe there is a bit extra for range and offshore seakeeping.

Two other notable differences include crewing. Tobruk had a complement of about 150 people, whereas the LCH is looking for more a patrol boat/OPV sized crew (30-50). The various designs also show an open cargo deck, rather than enclosed, which simplifies the design.

Birdon's proposal seems close to the kind of vessel I would have expected for an LCH. It can do 400 tonnes is 80 metres long and can hold 70 troops. I can't find a displacement but I would have thought this is sub 2,00 tonnes light ship.

 

[Reptilia]

LCH?

73m, 550-600T payload at 15knts. 4,000nm range, 600m square deck area.

‘The vessel, which is under construction at an undisclosed shipyard, is powered by four electrically driven screws. It will be delivered to the USMC in January 2025 and will be used for amphibious littoral training in Northern Australia,
Indonesia, and the Southwest Pacific.‘

Sea Transport Group wins USMC contract - Australian Defence Magazine

The US Marine Corps will charter a 73 metre long Sea Transport Group-designed Stern Landing Vessel (SLV) from Sea Transport Group's sister company, Sealease, for a period of three years.

www.australiandefence.com.au

Built in Indonesia according to those on X.

Sea Transport - YouTube channel

 

[SammyC]

Nice vessel. Their website states they also provided the Paluma class hydros.

They advise 32 TEUs, so 16 x 40 ft containers would fit on this design,

I get the benefit of a stern beaching, however you'd really want the propulsion to be heavily protected. There would be times it would be sucking mud.

 

[Volkodav]

Nice vessel. Their website states they also provided the Paluma class hydros.

They advise 32 TEUs, so 16 x 40 ft containers would fit on this design,

I get the benefit of a stern beaching, however you'd really want the propulsion to be heavily protected. There would be times it would be sucking mud.

Interesting, the Palumas were built at Eglos in Adelaide, which also built the superstructure blocks for the last pair of FFGs. That yard has been absorbed into the ASC South / BAE shipyard.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Why is the Army still buying Javelin missiles in large numbers?
This is the second major order in less than 18 months.
Hasn't the decision been made to transition to the Israeli Spike ATGM system(which I thought would ultimately be made in Australia)?
Is this delayed because Israel is not so keen on exporting Spike at the moment due to their circumstances?

Australia – FGM-148F Javelin Missiles | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

 

[Volkodav]

Why is the Army still buying Javelin missiles in large numbers?
This is the second major order in less than 18 months.
Hasn't the decision been made to transition to the Israeli Spike ATGM system(which I thought would ultimately be made in Australia)?
Is this delayed because Israel is not so keen on exporting Spike at the moment due to their circumstances?

Australia – FGM-148F Javelin Missiles | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

View attachment 51604

In service and works.

Basically just because the successor has been identified, or even ordered, it doesn't mean you stop supporting, which includes acquiring stocks, of in service systems.

 

[spoz]

Interesting, the Palumas were built at Eglos in Adelaide, which also built the superstructure blocks for the last pair of FFGs. That yard has been absorbed into the ASC South / BAE shipyard.

Yep, I did some of the contract inspections. Built in Osborne, SA; and as Volk says now part of ASC and in that part of the shipyard leased to BAE; their facilities are now a plate shop. The building was where some of the initial fabrication for both the DDGs and OPVs was done.

 

[Volkodav]

Yep, I did some of the contract inspections. Built in Osborne, SA; and as Volk says now part of ASC and in that part of the shipyard leased to BAE; their facilities are now a plate shop. The building was where some of the initial fabrication for both the DDGs and OPVs was done.

From memory, Paul Normandale was there for Palumas and FFG blocks too. His last navy jobs. I miss the old and bolds, so much knowledge and experience, 20 years plus in uniform, another 20 plus in industry.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Australian soldiers are in South Korea learning how to operate the K9 Howitzer.

https://www.defence.gov.au/news-events/news/2024-08-19/gunners-come-grips-new-howitzer

 

[spoz]

Paul’s now living somewhere on the Copper Coast, Port Broughton I think. He’s in Adelaide reasonably frequently; I last saw him in February.

 

[Volkodav]

Paul’s now living somewhere on the Copper Coast, Port Broughton I think. He’s in Adelaide reasonably frequently; I last saw him in February.

I caught up with him last year at another old and bolds place. The scary thing is now all you guys are retired or retiring, I'm the old one.

 

[ADMk2]

Why is the Army still buying Javelin missiles in large numbers?
This is the second major order in less than 18 months.
Hasn't the decision been made to transition to the Israeli Spike ATGM system(which I thought would ultimately be made in Australia)?
Is this delayed because Israel is not so keen on exporting Spike at the moment due to their circumstances?

Australia – FGM-148F Javelin Missiles | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

View attachment 51604

We have given our Javelin warshots to Ukraine. We require an ATGW capability until SPIKE LR2 is deployed and in-service, which it isn’t yet, even on the Boxer CRV Block 2, the only vehicle we have delivered in which it is integrated. Redback doesn’t arrive until 2027 and SPIKE LR2 dismounted capability hasn’t even been approved yet.

There is also the possibility that a rethink on Javelin replacement in the dismounted role has been done…

SPIKE LR2 is only being partially assembled in Australia by Varley. Rafael won’t give us the “keys to the castle” for SPIKE which may be partly the reason why we are still buying Javelin…

 

[MARKMILES77]

Hanwha Defence Australia’s Armoured Vehicle Centre of Excellence (H-ACE) officially opened today.
Barely seems justified for the small number of vehicles ordered. Will be interesting to see if exports eventuate.

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/media-releases/2024-08-23/latest-australian-defence-industry-facility-opens-geelong

Hanwha Armoured Vehicle Centre of Excellence opened - Australian Defence Magazine

The Hanwha Armoured Vehicle Centre of Excellence was opened by the Minister for Defence, Richard Marles, on 23 August.

www.australiandefence.com.au

 

[Sandson41]

Hanwha Defence Australia’s Armoured Vehicle Centre of Excellence (H-ACE) officially opened today.
Barely seems justified for the small number of vehicles ordered. Will be interesting to see if exports eventuate.

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/media-releases/2024-08-23/latest-australian-defence-industry-facility-opens-geelong

Hanwha Armoured Vehicle Centre of Excellence opened - Australian Defence Magazine

The Hanwha Armoured Vehicle Centre of Excellence was opened by the Minister for Defence, Richard Marles, on 23 August.

www.australiandefence.com.au

I have some hope the AS9 and AS21 will end up like the Bushmaster:

299 ordered (down from 370 planned)
Increased to 443 in 2006
Increased again to 696 in 2007, and 737 in 2008
Another 101 ordered in 2011, and another 214 in 2012 (to keep the workers employed) for 1,052 total
Another 78 ordered in 2023 to replace the Ukraine contribution, and another 15 in 2024 for HIMARS command units.
Plus foreign orders.

TLDR - we have a record of ordering more after the initial batch, if we like the product and want to keep the factory running...