Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[ADMk2]

It will be interesting to see what equipment is actually selected. Hoping SIG, expecting Glock.

I’m more interested in the personal defence weapon type, calibre etc.Various elements of ADF are already equipped with H&K pistols and Glocks… But I’ve always been a SiG man, myself… Loved my P320 in flat dark earth…

The later phases of LAND 159 are more interesting though, where we will finally see replacements for the old 66 introduced, new dismounted medium ranged ATGW (expected to be Spike LR2) and allegedly, loitering munitions…

 

[Volkodav]

MP-7? I know Gary said HK were doing the hard sell on them for SOF before they decided 5.56 to replace the 9mm SMGs

 

[Bob53]

I referred to this a few weeks ago on this thread and this is shaping as a ABC hatchet job and my gut says Cosgrove is the target. Cosgrove 'dismayed' to learn of secret New Zealand probe into allegations of torture by Australian soldiers in East Timor

The Typical MO is that after Cosgrove denies knowledge the ABC will then produce a document to show he may have been informed or have knowledge. Willesee has a thing for the ADF and tearing down traditional institutions.

 

[ngatimozart]

I referred to this a few weeks ago on this thread and this is shaping as a ABC hatchet job and my gut says Cosgrove is the target. Cosgrove 'dismayed' to learn of secret New Zealand probe into allegations of torture by Australian soldiers in East Timor

The Typical MO is that after Cosgrove denies knowledge the ABC will then produce a document to show he may have been informed or have knowledge. Willesee has a thing for the ADF and tearing down traditional institutions.

Yes such allegations and reports of mistreatment would certainly cause unease within NZDF. It would be reported up the chain with expectation of action to remedy the situation be taken. AM Carey Adamson was old school and a good man. Brig Lou Gardiner was an extremely honourable man and held in very high regard within NZDF and the wider community. He went on to a very distinguished career in government and non government circles, passing away about a month or so ago. Both made the correct decision about not handing over internees to ADF personnel. In Afghanistan around 2007 /08 from memory, the NZSAS refused to hand over captives to the Afghan army or intelligence services for interrogation because of those organisations torturing prisoners. They were also not happy about handing over captives to the Americans for the same reason.

The NZDF has a protocol about the handling and treatment of captives and it is enforceable under NZ law. It is taken very seriously. The NZSAS & 1NZSF as well as the wider NZDF are thoroughly schooled in their legal requirements and responsibilities. NZSAS has no time for cowboys and / or rogue operators and those are weeded out quickly. There is also a different culture in NZDF to the ADF and that makes a difference as well. We have our bad eggs, but we deal to them quickly before they get out of hand.

Certain media may have a habit of beating up on the military, but when cases like these allegations come out into the open, and there is enough to suggest that they have occurred with senior sirs and others in the command chain covering them up, disciplinary action not being taken against the individuals responsible and those enabling such conduct, then yes these stories should be spread far and wide. A military is as only good as the people who serve in it. It has to obey the laws of it's own land as well as adhere to the morals, standards, expectations and teachings of its country. If it allows some of its personnel to commit crimes that are against the law at home, or are war crimes then it is condoning the crimes that have been committed, the evil that they represent, and the stain upon their country's name. A military that deliberately hides such misconduct is no better than the Russian army trying to hide their atrocities in Ukraine. That is not something any of us veterans signed up for, to do, or to condone, and we certainly shouldn't be supporting anyone who has committed these crimes.

 

[TScott]

Yes such allegations and reports of mistreatment would certainly cause unease within NZDF. It would be reported up the chain with expectation of action to remedy the situation be taken. AM Carey Adamson was old school and a good man. Brig Lou Gardiner was an extremely honourable man and held in very high regard within NZDF and the wider community. He went on to a very distinguished career in government and non government circles, passing away about a month or so ago. Both made the correct decision about not handing over internees to ADF personnel. In Afghanistan around 2007 /08 from memory, the NZSAS refused to hand over captives to the Afghan army or intelligence services for interrogation because of those organisations torturing prisoners. They were also not happy about handing over captives to the Americans for the same reason.

The NZDF has a protocol about the handling and treatment of captives and it is enforceable under NZ law. It is taken very seriously. The NZSAS & 1NZSF as well as the wider NZDF are thoroughly schooled in their legal requirements and responsibilities. NZSAS has no time for cowboys and / or rogue operators and those are weeded out quickly. There is also a different culture in NZDF to the ADF and that makes a difference as well. We have our bad eggs, but we deal to them quickly before they get out of hand.

Certain media may have a habit of beating up on the military, but when cases like these allegations come out into the open, and there is enough to suggest that they have occurred with senior sirs and others in the command chain covering them up, disciplinary action not being taken against the individuals responsible and those enabling such conduct, then yes these stories should be spread far and wide. A military is as only good as the people who serve in it. It has to obey the laws of it's own land as well as adhere to the morals, standards, expectations and teachings of its country. If it allows some of its personnel to commit crimes that are against the law at home, or are war crimes then it is condoning the crimes that have been committed, the evil that they represent, and the stain upon their country's name. A military that deliberately hides such misconduct is no better than the Russian army trying to hide their atrocities in Ukraine. That is not something any of us veterans signed up for, to do, or to condone, and we certainly shouldn't be supporting anyone who has committed these crimes.

Do you have any evidence for the general tone of your post other than a single ABC article and/or the current ONGOING investigation into 1 section of the Australian SASR?

For someone who enforces the rules of this forum, I must say your post is bloody outrageous without further validation as you are clearly smearing the entire ADF.

Can you please PM me the owner of this sites email address.

 

[Volkodav]

Do you have any evidence for the general tone of your post other than a single ABC article and/or the current ONGOING investigation into 1 section of the Australian SASR?

For someone who enforces the rules of this forum, I must say your post is bloody outrageous without further validation as you are clearly smearing the entire ADF.

Can you please PM me the owner of this sites email address.

I think you have completely misread the tone of the post.

There have been allegations for years, many of them coming from the operators themselves, the more time goes by, the more is coming out.

It was once said to me you should fear the absence of reports and complaints more than the existence of them as it is the clearest indication of a culture of cover ups. If incidents, accidents and mistakes are not reported then you can pretty much guarantee that incompetence, corruption and criminality are being covered up too. When people seen as dispensable are thrown under the buss, you can be pretty sure they were sacrificed to protect those seen as more important.

The fact that it coming out now that senior, respected people had doubts and concerns, raised them and still nothing happened is a very serious matter.

 

[Gooey]

Having served in both DF's, I am used to the generic Kiwi tone of "There is also a different culture in NZDF to the ADF and that makes a difference as well." Of course, there are different cultures. Just as there are different cultures b/w RN, RNZN, and RAN; RAF, RNZAF, and RAAF. But the size of these differences is relatively tiny and, most importantly, this does not equate to the right to broadcast their moral superiority. Especially, when some do more operations than others and others are basically bludgers. I say that as a proud Kiwi and as a true blue Ozi.

As for "NZSAS has no time for cowboys and / or rogue operators and those are weeded out quickly." I wouldn't call the political witch hunt that was Op BURMAN a quick process. Instead, it's just another example of 'the Press' (ie. like the ABC) getting their teeth into the complexities of an operation for 'Gotcha' moments and personal profit/self-gratification.

As a historical aside, it was alleged by the Germans that the Kiwi 2nd Division bayonetted their way at night through a Field Hospital during a North African breakout operation. I'm not too sure the 3rd NZ Division took many prisoners during their (limited) Solomons campaign.

 

[Massive]

The concept of the current ”trial” of light Cavalry capability at 10 LHR to me demonstrates a possibly excellent way forward.

A next step that would make sense here would be a self-propelled 120mm mortar in the artillery batteries (similar to the Singaporean mortar on the Belrex platform)

More broadly - if the reserves are seen as a reserve combat force then the adage that at today's level of technological development "you fight the next war with what you have" suggests that the reserves need to be equipped with protected vehicles, ATGW, SHORAD at a minimum.

Additional capabilities would be UCAV, long-range fires, NLOS, loitering munitions.

That some of these capabilities are limited/not available to the regular army is understood.

Regards,

Massive

 

[Redlands18]

A next step that would make sense here would be a self-propelled 120mm mortar in the artillery batteries (similar to the Singaporean mortar on the Belrex platform)

More broadly - if the reserves are seen as a reserve combat force then the adage that at today's level of technological development "you fight the next war with what you have" suggests that the reserves need to be equipped with protected vehicles, ATGW, SHORAD at a minimum.

Additional capabilities would be UCAV, long-range fires, NLOS, loitering munitions.

That some of these capabilities are limited/not available to the regular army is understood.

Regards,

Massive

A 120mm SP Mortar is planned as part of the Land 400 phase 3 fleet.

 

[CJR]

A 120mm SP Mortar is planned as part of the Land 400 phase 3 fleet.

It's sorta implicit (following on from the post he's quoting) that Massive is talking in the context of the reserves where a mortar on the back of a Hawkei or Bushmaster is rather easier to manage than a full tracked IFV hull with a mortar turret.

 

[ngatimozart]

Do you have any evidence for the general tone of your post other than a single ABC article and/or the current ONGOING investigation into 1 section of the Australian SASR?

For someone who enforces the rules of this forum, I must say your post is bloody outrageous without further validation as you are clearly smearing the entire ADF.

Can you please PM me the owner of this sites email address.

Look, there's no need to get upset. I standby what I said and the point is no defence force is sacrosanct when it comes to allegations of war crimes. Not the ADF, nor the NZDF and if you think that I am being harsh or disrespectful of the ADF I would be far harsher of the NZDF if the same allegations were made of them.

If you want to contact the owner, PM the Webmaster.

Having served in both DF's, I am used to the generic Kiwi tone of "There is also a different culture in NZDF to the ADF and that makes a difference as well." Of course, there are different cultures. Just as there are different cultures b/w RN, RNZN, and RAN; RAF, RNZAF, and RAAF. But the size of these differences is relatively tiny and, most importantly, this does not equate to the right to broadcast their moral superiority. Especially, when some do more operations than others and others are basically bludgers. I say that as a proud Kiwi and as a true blue Ozi.

Nothing about moral superiority at all. It's about what's right and what's wrong. I would expect ADF personnel to raise concerns with NZDF if they saw NZDF personnel committing war crimes. No more no less. I would be very disappointed if ADF personnel didn't. With regard to NZ bludging defence wise, you are speaking to the converted.

As for "NZSAS has no time for cowboys and / or rogue operators and those are weeded out quickly." I wouldn't call the political witch hunt that was Op BURMAN a quick process. Instead, it's just another example of 'the Press' (ie. like the ABC) getting their teeth into the complexities of an operation for 'Gotcha' moments and personal profit/self-gratification.

As a historical aside, it was alleged by the Germans that the Kiwi 2nd Division bayonetted their way at night through a Field Hospital during a North African breakout operation. I'm not too sure the 3rd NZ Division took many prisoners during their (limited) Solomons campaign.

OP BURNHAM was a political exercise driven by a media witch hunt, that turned out to be a fizzler.

Can't remember the hospital bayoneting incident, but a 28th Maori Battalion Officer Lt Col Arapeta Awatere was accused after the war of having German POWs shot. Nothing came of it because no evidential proof was provided. He was former MP Donna Huata Awatere'a father and he was sentenced to life imprisonment for murder in 1969 when he murdered a former lover's boyfriend.

My uncle was in the 3rd NZ Division and he never mentioned anything about Japanese prisoners. You have to remember that Japanese POWs were a bit of a rarity during the war because they were indoctrinated that it was immense shame and dishonour to be taken alive. From my reading the the US took very few in the Solomon Is campaigns. My uncle taught me never to leave a live enemy behind me. That he learnt in the jungles of the Solomon Islands.

 

[Hone C]

Can't remember the hospital bayoneting incident

That was during the battle of Mersa Matruh, aka the Minqar Qaim breakout 28 Jun 1942. 4th Brigade cut its way through a Panzer grenadier battalion of the 21st Panzer Division and a German aid station.

DAK submitted a formal complaint about the incident afterwards.

 

[Pepe le pew]

Look, there's no need to get upset. I standby what I said and the point is no defence force is sacrosanct when it comes to allegations of war crimes. Not the ADF, nor the NZDF and if you think that I am being harsh or disrespectful of the ADF I would be far harsher of the NZDF if the same allegations were made of them.

If you want to contact the owner, PM the Webmaster.


Nothing about moral superiority at all. It's about what's right and what's wrong. I would expect ADF personnel to raise concerns with NZDF if they saw NZDF personnel committing war crimes. No more no less. I would be very disappointed if ADF personnel didn't. With regard to NZ bludging defence wise, you are speaking to the converted.

OP BURNHAM was a political exercise driven by a media witch hunt, that turned out to be a fizzler.

Can't remember the hospital bayoneting incident, but a 28th Maori Battalion Officer Lt Col Arapeta Awatere was accused after the war of having German POWs shot. Nothing came of it because no evidential proof was provided. He was former MP Donna Huata Awatere'a father and he was sentenced to life imprisonment for murder in 1969 when he murdered a former lover's boyfriend.

My uncle was in the 3rd NZ Division and he never mentioned anything about Japanese prisoners. You have to remember that Japanese POWs were a bit of a rarity during the war because they were indoctrinated that it was immense shame and dishonour to be taken alive. From my reading the the US took very few in the Solomon Is campaigns. My uncle taught me never to leave a live enemy behind me. That he learnt in the jungles of the Solomon Islands.

The excellent book "A Bloody Road Home (NZ 2nd Division)" by Christopher Pugsley confirms and details both the incidents that you are referring to.
In Lt Col Awatere's case an internal investigation of what was referred to as the "Casa Bianca Incident" (where 18 POWs were killed) was ordered by General Freyberg. This resulted in Awatere being quietly sent home in 1945 and replaced by Lt Col James Henare.

 

[ngatimozart]

The excellent book "A Bloody Road Home (NZ 2nd Division)" by Christopher Pugsley confirms and details both the incidents that you are referring to.
In Lt Col Awatere's case an internal investigation of what was referred to as the "Casa Bianca Incident" (where 18 POWs were killed) was ordered by General Freyberg. This resulted in Awatere being quietly sent home in 1945 and replaced by Lt Col James Henare.

Tiny Freyberg should've Courts Martialled him for that. Or he should've been Courts Martialled when he RTNZ. That stinks like a week of bag of dead fish. Definitely lowered the mana of the Battalion.

 

[Pepe le pew]

Tiny Freyberg should've Courts Martialled him for that. Or he should've been Courts Martialled when he RTNZ. That stinks like a week of bag of dead fish. Definitely lowered the mana of the Battalion.

These exact sentiments were expressed by James Henare and former 28 Battalion Chaplin W T Huata at an Officers Dinner at Waiouru in the 1980's. (Chris Pugsley being present). Apologies for off topic.

 

[Rock the kasbah]

Tiny Freyberg should've Courts Martialled him for that. Or he should've been Courts Martialled when he RTNZ. That stinks like a week of bag of dead fish. Definitely lowered the mana of the Battalion.

Freyberg has alot of skeletons in his closet when it comes to generalship, as many do in ww2
I don't think he's the right bloke for this thread

 

[ngatimozart]

Freyberg has alot of skeletons in his closet when it comes to generalship, as many do in ww2
I don't think he's the right bloke for this thread

No real need for that.

 

[Rock the kasbah]

I was only thinking Crete
Nothing else

 

[KiwiRob]

Tiny Freyberg should've Courts Martialled him for that. Or he should've been Courts Martialled when he RTNZ. That stinks like a week of bag of dead fish. Definitely lowered the mana of the Battalion.

He did his own mana no favours by murdering a man a few year later then dying in prison, I'd say karma caught up with him. His daughter is a disreputable women as well, her list of fraud and poor behaviour unbecoming of an MP is longer than most Kiwi politicians. I guess being dodgy was a family trait!

 

[ngatimozart]

I was only thinking Crete
Nothing else

Well Greece and Crete were Churchills balls-up and It wasn't Freyberg who stuffed up at Crete, but one of his Generals defending the area surrounding Malamene airfield. Can't remember which one, might've been Hargest. Freyberg wore the blame for that because as far as he was concerned he was the overall commander and that was just who he was. He always looked out for his troops.

When a group of soldiers from the 28th Maori Battalion shot up a jeep carrying 2 Russian & 2 Yugoslav Generals outside Trieste in May / June 1945 he wasn't concerned about an international incident. The jeep had stopped at a checkpoint when told to so the Maori opened fire. Freyberg wasn't happy at all about their poor marksmanship and he let them know too in no uncertain terms. The Russian & Yugoslav Generals didn't get an apology either from Tiny Freyberg either.