Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[earthyman]

Nice report on the development of the EF88, it's on the right of the webpage.

https://www.aspi.org.au/report/sticking-our-guns-troubled-past-produces-superb-weapon

and a shorter article ENHANCING THE AUSTEYR AUSTRALIA DEFENCE FORCE’S EF88/F90 RIFLE – Small Arms Defense Journal
It's a shame they made the weapon black, but they can always change the color in the future, I was always impressed that the F88A2 I think for a while, came camouflaged from the factory, and I'm pretty sure our enemies and allies were also impressed

 

[ADMk2]

Nice report on the development of the EF88, it's on the right of the webpage.

https://www.aspi.org.au/report/sticking-our-guns-troubled-past-produces-superb-weapon

and a shorter article ENHANCING THE AUSTEYR AUSTRALIA DEFENCE FORCE’S EF88/F90 RIFLE – Small Arms Defense Journal
It's a shame they made the weapon black, but they can always change the color in the future, I was always impressed that the F88A2 I think for a while, came camouflaged from the factory, and I'm pretty sure our enemies and allies were also impressed

What’s wrong with making the gun black? Most military firearms come in black as their standard base colour?

 

[ASSAIL]

What’s wrong with making the gun black? Most military firearms come in black as their standard base colour?

The linked article states that originally soldiers were forbidden to paint/camo their rifles but that order was soon rescinded when it was shown how starkly the black stood out in a field situation so I guess there’s your answer.

 

[ADMk2]

The linked article states that originally soldiers were forbidden to paint/camo their rifles but that order was soon rescinded when it was shown how starkly the black stood out in a field situation so I guess there’s your answer.

Most gats in Army are black, so…

 

[John Newman]

For those that have read the RAN Thread you’ll have seen my prediction regarding the MH-60R announcement, here’s one for Army.

I’ve given my trusty crystal ball another good rub and this is what I see.

Option 1
The Army will not proceed with inducting modified MRH90 as the replacement for the soon to retire Black Hawk fleet, and instead will procure a fleet of MH-60M, same aircraft as US special forces to operate alongside the planned procurement of a special forces LUH.

Option 2
Not proceed with the planned procurement of 12-16 special forces LUH, and instead procure a larger fleet of MH-60M, at least 24 aircraft.

Summary
Either way, the regular Army ends up with a larger pool of MRH90 to work with (47 airframes), the Special Forces continue to operate Black Hawk that will have some commonality with the expanded RAN fleet of Romeo helicopters.

The crystal ball was a bit foggy (have to give it another good rub!) not certain if the LUH procurement will proceed or not.

Cheers,

 

[Navor86]

Sounds good, but wasn´t to rationalize the whole logistical system by having as few airframe types as possibleß

Having around 60MH-60 (24+12 for RAN and 24 for SOF ) sounds pretty good but politicians surely would ask questions why there are 47 MRH90 in the Army as well

 

[aviation_enthus]

Sounds good, but wasn´t to rationalize the whole logistical system by having as few airframe types as possibleß

Having around 60MH-60 (24+12 for RAN and 24 for SOF ) sounds pretty good but politicians surely would ask questions why there are 47 MRH90 in the Army as well

Maybr the politicians will question it.
But then again it could be argued having the Blackhawk used by Navy and SF provides some economy of scale. Plus the estimated potential fleet sizes also provide reasonable economy.
(47 MRH plus 48-60 MH-60)

 

[ADMk2]

Sounds good, but wasn´t to rationalize the whole logistical system by having as few airframe types as possibleß

Having around 60MH-60 (24+12 for RAN and 24 for SOF ) sounds pretty good but politicians surely would ask questions why there are 47 MRH90 in the Army as well

Not quite. The goal of AIR-9000 was to reduce from 9 separate types of helicopter in ADF service down to 4 or 5.

Apache, MRH-90, Chinook, Seahawk and EC-135 meets that goal.

Special Forces Light Helicopter capability is a new requirement that AIR-9000 was never intended to address.

 

[spoz]

Thé Navy would be using Seahawks not Blackhawks, -401 engines not -701s, marinisation and a completely different avionics/weapons system. There is certainly some commonality, but not as much as you might think. They are of the same family, but are not twins. Probably manage the engines as one pool (as was done with the Cs in the 70Bs and As) changing between the two depending on need as necessary, and possibly part of the drive train, but not much else.

 

[rand0m]

In regards to LAND 400 phase 3 selections coming down to the Redback and Lynx, my understanding is that one vehicle is approx 42t (Redback) whilst the other is 45t (Lynx). Wouldn't the lighter vehicle at 42t have a significant advantage over the 45t vehicle given that the LCM8 replacements (Caimen 90 at this stage?) are likely to have around a 90t capacity? In theory this could result in the LCM8 replacements only being able to carry 1 x Lynx or 2 x Redback by time you personnel, fuel and other factors into the mix?

 

[Stampede]

In regards to LAND 400 phase 3 selections coming down to the Redback and Lynx, my understanding is that one vehicle is approx 42t (Redback) whilst the other is 45t (Lynx). Wouldn't the lighter vehicle at 42t have a significant advantage over the 45t vehicle given that the LCM8 replacements (Caimen 90 at this stage?) are likely to have around a 90t capacity? In theory this could result in the LCM8 replacements only being able to carry 1 x Lynx or 2 x Redback by time you personnel, fuel and other factors into the mix?

I'd speculate there are many factors determining the outcome of Land 400 Phase 3.
I'd guess vehicle weight will play a part.

A good observation that a vehicles weight has flow on affects.
Maritime transport would be one of them.
As would ramifications for land road / rail / bridge infrastructure,transport vehicles and more.

In the big ADF lego set hopefully all the parts fit together.


Regards S

 

[Redlands18]

In regards to LAND 400 phase 3 selections coming down to the Redback and Lynx, my understanding is that one vehicle is approx 42t (Redback) whilst the other is 45t (Lynx). Wouldn't the lighter vehicle at 42t have a significant advantage over the 45t vehicle given that the LCM8 replacements (Caimen 90 at this stage?) are likely to have around a 90t capacity? In theory this could result in the LCM8 replacements only being able to carry 1 x Lynx or 2 x Redback by time you personnel, fuel and other factors into the mix?

Not sure being able to carry 2 IFVs at once will factor real heavily in a LCM-8 replacement, you park 2 Redbacks on one and you pretty much used up all your weight allowance, if their primary role was Ship to Shore connector maybe but its not.

 

[vonnoobie]

I dont think it is so much the LCM-8 rather then the LCM-1E that matters for landing these assets. LCM-8 isn't and to my knowledge hasnt been based aboard either the Canberra's class or the Choules so ship to shore connector would fall mostly to the LCM-1E for that. The LCM-8 would only come into play if its a shore to shore connector (ie: ADF water taxi service) or providing ship to shore if we actually have a shore bridgehead and basic operating base to operate and base them out of.

 

[aussienscale]

I dont think it is so much the LCM-8 rather then the LCM-1E that matters for landing these assets. LCM-8 isn't and to my knowledge hasnt been based aboard either the Canberra's class or the Choules so ship to shore connector would fall mostly to the LCM-1E for that. The LCM-8 would only come into play if its a shore to shore connector (ie: ADF water taxi service) or providing ship to shore if we actually have a shore bridgehead and basic operating base to operate and base them out of.

LCM-8's are and have been used with Choules essentially since we got her, have never seen any reference to them being used by the LHD's though.

 

[buffy9]

I dont think it is so much the LCM-8 rather then the LCM-1E that matters for landing these assets. LCM-8 isn't and to my knowledge hasnt been based aboard either the Canberra's class or the Choules so ship to shore connector would fall mostly to the LCM-1E for that. The LCM-8 would only come into play if its a shore to shore connector (ie: ADF water taxi service) or providing ship to shore if we actually have a shore bridgehead and basic operating base to operate and base them out of.

LCM-8's are and have been used with Choules essentially since we got her, have never seen any reference to them being used by the LHD's though.

They have been operated from the LHD on occasion, IPE 2017 being the best example I can think of. I'm unsure why - maybe the LLC were having issues or being upgraded at the time?

Ps:

A little LCM-8 video I found alongside the sources, for those interested.

 

[Flexson]

It's not because the LLC's were having issues or being upgraded. With 12 LLC and usually only one LHD deploying at a time there is more than enough redundancy.

The LCM-8s along with their Army crews were the primary deployable landing craft for Kanimbla, Manoora and Tobruk. The LHDs quite often deploy off the Australian station with one to keep the Army boat crews happy; they'd never get to go overseas anymore otherwise.

And its useful having a vessel with slightly different capabilities (overnight independent operations) onboard for contingencies.

 

[hauritz]

For those that have read the RAN Thread you’ll have seen my prediction regarding the MH-60R announcement, here’s one for Army.

I’ve given my trusty crystal ball another good rub and this is what I see.

Option 1
The Army will not proceed with inducting modified MRH90 as the replacement for the soon to retire Black Hawk fleet, and instead will procure a fleet of MH-60M, same aircraft as US special forces to operate alongside the planned procurement of a special forces LUH.

Option 2
Not proceed with the planned procurement of 12-16 special forces LUH, and instead procure a larger fleet of MH-60M, at least 24 aircraft.

Summary
Either way, the regular Army ends up with a larger pool of MRH90 to work with (47 airframes), the Special Forces continue to operate Black Hawk that will have some commonality with the expanded RAN fleet of Romeo helicopters.

The crystal ball was a bit foggy (have to give it another good rub!) not certain if the LUH procurement will proceed or not.

Cheers,

If we are talking crystal balls it wouldn't surprise me if the MRH90 went the way of the Tiger Helicopter and Attack subs. The army must be starting to lose patience with this copter.

At this stage though I would still lean towards the AW139 for the LUH but if we do get the MH-60M I suspect it will be the beginning of the end for the MRH90

 

[Gryphinator]

As a former Huey and Blackhawk user (medic) who has friends on the Taipan, I'd like an all Blackhawk fleet (Chooks and Apache aside) based on their feedback and what we all know about Taipan.

 

[buffy9]

If we are talking crystal balls it wouldn't surprise me if the MRH90 went the way of the Tiger Helicopter and Attack subs. The army must be starting to lose patience with this copter.

At this stage though I would still lean towards the AW139 for the LUH but if we do get the MH-60M I suspect it will be the beginning of the end for the MRH90

As a former Huey and Blackhawk user (medic) who has friends on the Taipan, I'd like an all Blackhawk fleet (Chooks and Apache aside) based on their feedback and what we all know about Taipan.

Was there a particular reason a replacement wasn't planned in the DSU? I'd love to see them replaced but based on what was detailed it doesn't seem to be an important requirement - at least not for most of Army.

 

[Redlands18]

Was there a particular reason a replacement wasn't planned in the DSU? I'd love to see them replaced but based on what was detailed it doesn't seem to be an important requirement - at least not for most of Army.

It is in the DSU but not until the 2030s. I don't think the ADF really wants to replace the MRH-90 at this time, if it does it will be more about having to then wanting to because of the ongoing issues. and then funding would have to be found. Then they would then find themselves having to introduce 3 new Helicopters at the same time, already have the Apache coming and the SF LUH coming in the next few years. The ADF has also shown some interest in the US Army FVL program.