Australian Army Discussions and Updates

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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Takao said:
For us? It's pointless.

3 major issues:

1. it's a 105 mm gun. That's an inappropriate calibre for what we want, it requires a new ammunition funding line, it doesn't mesh with most of our likely allies (noting that some use 105 mm, but those supply chains are too small to be of any significance) and frankly, it doesn't have enough payload. Against any force other than light infantry it's reasonably useless, and 155 mm works against light infantry just as well. Note also that this is a L118 gun - we replaced those with M777. Why go backwards?

2. the platform is unprotected and unsupported. If there is a worse platform for protection than a Humvee, I don't know. I know you have said on a Hawkei, but that is a significant chunk of change for engineering on something that would be a bespoke system (so why buy the platform). That's even assuming a Hawkei can take the load, while the M20 is around 2.1 t and the Hawkei can take up to 3 t, I don't know how much the undercarriage needs to be beefed up.

3. the gun is not protected. This is the biggest killer for me. To have the crew operating outside armour is pointless and just killers gunners. The gun has to carry and operate with all it's people under cover - the exception being during reloading of ready ammunition when out of contact (and if this can be done automatically / under cover than even better). This alone takes it out of the contention for a protected, mobile fires system.

All up this fulfils no need in the ADF, is a backwards step, would be a bespoke system, has significant technical overheads, would cost a bucketload, has little battlefield application and undermines the joint force.
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We are supposed to be getting a 120mm Mortar based on the Land 400 phase 3 Vehicles, I would suspect that would be a much better way to go with far better protection and it will be able to keep up with the main Armour.
Thanks @Takao on the info on the M20, not much is there?
 
Takao

Takao

The Bunker Group
Redlands18 said:
Thanks @Takao on the info on the M20, not much is there?
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Nope. And none of the white lanyards at work knew what it is, either. I also don't know why a piece of equipment would get a different designation for coming from a different factory, but I'm beat as to the difference between a M119 and an M20!
 
H

hairyman

Active Member
On our local TV news last night (out of Albury), there was an item showing Scott Morrison announcing $2bI for modern weapons and equipment for the Special Services, telling us to tune into channel 7 news to find out what weapons and equipment are to be purchased. Channel 7 news told us nothing, but the ABC news told us it was over 20 years. Now does anyone have any clue as to what this money will be used for?
 
FoxtrotRomeo999

FoxtrotRomeo999

Active Member
hairyman said:
On our local TV news last night (out of Albury), there was an item showing Scott Morrison announcing $2bI for modern weapons and equipment for the Special Services, telling us to tune into channel 7 news to find out what weapons and equipment are to be purchased. Channel 7 news told us nothing, but the ABC news told us it was over 20 years. Now does anyone have any clue as to what this money will be used for?
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No great details and searching the Defence site shows no mention of the work yet. Of course, such work is probably best not reported in detail ....

General media coverage
Billions for new weapons and armour for special forces soldiers
NoCookies | The Australian

PM Media Release
Backing our special forces with cutting edge equipment | Prime Minister of Australia

Australia’s Special Forces will be better equipped to keep Australians safe thanks to a $3 billion investment in cutting edge equipment under the Coalition Government.

The Government has approved the first stage of Project GREYFIN, which will provide the first $500 million of a $3 billion planned investment over 20 years.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison said the funding will ensure our Special Forces can better respond to threats, including that of terrorism.

“I’ve always said keeping Australians safe is my Government’s number one priority. That’s why we’re ensuring the men and women in our Special Forces have the equipment and training they need to succeed in their operations,” said Mr Morrison.

“Australian Special Forces undertake complex, highly demanding operations in high threat environments.

“Global threats will continue to evolve in ways which threaten Australia's interests. This funding will ensure our Special Forces have cutting edge capabilities to stay ahead of those who might threaten Australia's interests.”

Defence Minister Linda Reynolds says project GREYFIN ensures our Special Forces have the best body armour; weapons; diving, parachuting, roping and climbing systems; medical search and rescue; communications; human performance training and support; and everything else they need to help ensure Australia’s security.

“Our Special Forces, now more than ever, need to be ready and able to deploy on operations anywhere in the world, at short notice, and in very uncertain conditions.

“This first stage of funding enables our Special Forces to engage with intelligence, science and technology, and innovation organisations to ensure future threats and opportunities are assessed, to make sure we are delivering them the capability they need in the future.”

Project GREYFIN presents significant opportunities for Australian defence industries. These will span from small-to-large enterprises depending on the capabilities being acquired.

This commitment continues to pursue the special operations capability enhancements outlined in the Defence White Paper 2016.

The Coalition Government is investing more than $200 billion in Australia’s defence capability over the next decade – the nation’s biggest peacetime investment in Defence. By 2020-21, we will have restored investment in Defence to 2 per cent of GDP. ​
 
S

Stampede

Well-Known Member
FoxtrotRomeo999 said:
No great details and searching the Defence site shows no mention of the work yet. Of course, such work is probably best not reported in detail ....

General media coverage
Billions for new weapons and armour for special forces soldiers
NoCookies | The Australian

PM Media Release
Backing our special forces with cutting edge equipment | Prime Minister of Australia

Australia’s Special Forces will be better equipped to keep Australians safe thanks to a $3 billion investment in cutting edge equipment under the Coalition Government.

The Government has approved the first stage of Project GREYFIN, which will provide the first $500 million of a $3 billion planned investment over 20 years.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison said the funding will ensure our Special Forces can better respond to threats, including that of terrorism.

“I’ve always said keeping Australians safe is my Government’s number one priority. That’s why we’re ensuring the men and women in our Special Forces have the equipment and training they need to succeed in their operations,” said Mr Morrison.

“Australian Special Forces undertake complex, highly demanding operations in high threat environments.

“Global threats will continue to evolve in ways which threaten Australia's interests. This funding will ensure our Special Forces have cutting edge capabilities to stay ahead of those who might threaten Australia's interests.”

Defence Minister Linda Reynolds says project GREYFIN ensures our Special Forces have the best body armour; weapons; diving, parachuting, roping and climbing systems; medical search and rescue; communications; human performance training and support; and everything else they need to help ensure Australia’s security.

“Our Special Forces, now more than ever, need to be ready and able to deploy on operations anywhere in the world, at short notice, and in very uncertain conditions.

“This first stage of funding enables our Special Forces to engage with intelligence, science and technology, and innovation organisations to ensure future threats and opportunities are assessed, to make sure we are delivering them the capability they need in the future.”

Project GREYFIN presents significant opportunities for Australian defence industries. These will span from small-to-large enterprises depending on the capabilities being acquired.

This commitment continues to pursue the special operations capability enhancements outlined in the Defence White Paper 2016.

The Coalition Government is investing more than $200 billion in Australia’s defence capability over the next decade – the nation’s biggest peacetime investment in Defence. By 2020-21, we will have restored investment in Defence to 2 per cent of GDP. ​
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With this sort of projected capital and training for the Special forces, I guess it states the obvious that they are expected to continue to have a vital role in any future military contingency.
I wonder then if we need to look at their over all numbers of personnel and ask if we have enough personnel?
.While I appreciate that from an Army of our size we can potentially only get a certain number of likely candidates for the Special forces; is their still any potential to grow this Brigade in size?
I'd suggest we must find a way.
Leaving the SASR as is, would there not be some scope to add to the Commando Regt's and Special Operations Engineer Regt.
I often thought that the reserve commando units should have options in both Perth and Brisbane given their population base and existing military infrastructure.
As to the regulars, certainly time the 1st Commando Regt gained a regular Sqn of two.
Williamstown may not suffice, but Simpson Barracks Watsonia may be an option for an expanded base.
Alternatively there's Pucka near Seymour.

Now I know many will be wanting to hit the type writer with questions of, do you not know how long it takes to train a Commando and the like.
But the reality is the Special forces do soo many rotations on O/seas deployment and are always the go to capability when stuff hits the fan,we are probably short changing both our nation and those that serve, by not supporting the Special Forces Command with their full needs.
So? - Finances and extra personnel.

What ever the next contingency: Low ,Medium or High they will be used.

Two full Commando Regts for a total of eight Sqns sound achievable supported be a third Sqn for their engineers.

Thoughts

Regards S
 
O

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Stampede said:
With this sort of projected capital and training for the Special forces, I guess it states the obvious that they are expected to continue to have a vital role in any future military contingency.
I wonder then if we need to look at their over all numbers of personnel and ask if we have enough personnel?
.While I appreciate that from an Army of our size we can potentially only get a certain number of likely candidates for the Special forces; is their still any potential to grow this Brigade in size?
I'd suggest we must find a way.
Leaving the SASR as is, would there not be some scope to add to the Commando Regt's and Special Operations Engineer Regt.
I often thought that the reserve commando units should have options in both Perth and Brisbane given their population base and existing military infrastructure.
As to the regulars, certainly time the 1st Commando Regt gained a regular Sqn of two.
Williamstown may not suffice, but Simpson Barracks Watsonia may be an option for an expanded base.
Alternatively there's Pucka near Seymour.

Now I know many will be wanting to hit the type writer with questions of, do you not know how long it takes to train a Commando and the like.
But the reality is the Special forces do soo many rotations on O/seas deployment and are always the go to capability when stuff hits the fan,we are probably short changing both our nation and those that serve, by not supporting the Special Forces Command with their full needs.
So? - Finances and extra personnel.

What ever the next contingency: Low ,Medium or High they will be used.

Two full Commando Regts for a total of eight Sqns sound achievable supported be a third Sqn for their engineers.

Thoughts

Regards S
Click to expand...
There is room for another reserve Commando company for sure, make use of regular SF soldiers who discharge and want to stay active.
2 RAR are taking on a Recon role, I believe they are down to about a 5 platoon company, and are training much to the standard of Force Recon US marines.
I think if 2 RAR continue to develoo. This role, we will see another company raised, as 1 Company cannot be on 24/7 , 12 months a year, standby.
 
S

Stampede

Well-Known Member
old faithful said:
There is room for another reserve Commando company for sure, make use of regular SF soldiers who discharge and want to stay active.
2 RAR are taking on a Recon role, I believe they are down to about a 5 platoon company, and are training much to the standard of Force Recon US marines.
I think if 2 RAR continue to develoo. This role, we will see another company raised, as 1 Company cannot be on 24/7 , 12 months a year, standby.
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Thanks.
2 RAR are an interesting proposition.
Do they continue to be JUST a specialised Infantry Battalion .
or
Are they as I suspect too far removed and sum what " special " to now warrant an inclusion into the special forces command.
Maybe their maritime ship to shore skill set lends themselves to actually becoming another Commando Sqn or two.
Not sure of the answers, but the maritime skills within the traditional commando role and the direction of 2 RAR seem to have much in common.
Not unhappy with 6 RAR Battalions ( Not 7 ) across the brigades and concentrate on a larger Commando force.


Regards S
 
R

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I’ve got to say, Stampede, it looks like you’ve worked out what the answer will be and are trying to find a question to justify it.

If you look at increasing the capability of SOCOMD and your answer is more commandoes, you are perhaps missing a pretty important part of the issue. The actual shooty bang bang guys are only one part of the special forces capability. A very important part, to be sure, but it also the part in which we already excel. The part where we are behind the curve is all the supporting elements that turn the shooters into a real world capability. Things like dedicated SF helicopters, armed UAS, strategic deployment options, a proper CSAR/JPR/TRAP capability, all sorts of interesting ELINT/SIGINT/HUMINT/cyber capabilities etc etc.

If the ADF had a few billion dollars lying around and wanted to increase the capability of the SF, a couple of extra commando companies is probably not the top of the shopping list.
 
S

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Raven22 said:
I’ve got to say, Stampede, it looks like you’ve worked out what the answer will be and are trying to find a question to justify it.

If you look at increasing the capability of SOCOMD and your answer is more commandoes, you are perhaps missing a pretty important part of the issue. The actual shooty bang bang guys are only one part of the special forces capability. A very important part, to be sure, but it also the part in which we already excel. The part where we are behind the curve is all the supporting elements that turn the shooters into a real world capability. Things like dedicated SF helicopters, armed UAS, strategic deployment options, a proper CSAR/JPR/TRAP capability, all sorts of interesting ELINT/SIGINT/HUMINT/cyber capabilities etc etc.

If the ADF had a few billion dollars lying around and wanted to increase the capability of the SF, a couple of extra commando companies is probably not the top of the shopping list.
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Thanks Raven22

You only have a TRUE capability if you get the correct allocation of resources from teeth to tail.
If the Commando Regts are deficient in this regards, then total agree resources of capital and personal should be allocated accordingly.

Then maybe we consider looking at more "shooty bang bang guys", be they either regular or reserve. ;)

Regards S
 
M

mattyg

New Member
Hi, a regular reader of this post, not one for posting. With the Project Land 19 Phase 7B. 2 billion dollars worth, I haven't found an article that explains quantity of equipment. I did read the Def Min stating two batteries ?
 
M

MickB

Well-Known Member
While checking the Shepard Media link on an OPSSG post about Taiwan noticed a headline about Australian army introducing new 81mm mortars.
Behind paywall.

Would have thought that when the time came to replace the old mortars that 120mm would be introduced. Thus one supply chain if vehicle mounted 120mms are introduced.
 
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S

SteveR

Active Member
MickB said:
Would have thought that when the time came to replace the old mortars that 120mm would be introduced. Thus one supply chain if vehicle mounted 120mms are introduced.
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Hi Mick - if you had to carry one or the other you would know why. You would collapse under the weight of a 120mm mortar:(
 
M

MickB

Well-Known Member
SteveR said:
Hi Mick - if you had to carry one or the other you would know why. You would collapse under the weight of a 120mm mortar:(
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I knew that the 81mm can be broken down to be manpacked, but was unaware that this is the norm.

If the 81mm is mostly vehicle transported then what difference to vehicle transporting a 120mm.
Is this not why we have projects like the 4X4 mule but to get more equipment and heavier firepower up front?

Do not other nations use 120mm mortars, how do they get around this issue?

But yes I would not like to carry one.
 
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R

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
MickB said:
Do not other nations use 120mm mortars, how do they get around this issue?
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In the future, Australian mechanised battalions will have 120mm mortars, while the light battalions will have 81mm mortars, the same as pretty much everyone else.

Have a read of Op Anaconda in Afghanistan for an example of why 120mm mortars aren’t always best.
 
P

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Raven22 said:
In the future, Australian mechanised battalions will have 120mm mortars, while the light battalions will have 81mm mortars, the same as pretty much everyone else.

Have a read of Op Anaconda in Afghanistan for an example of why 120mm mortars aren’t always best.
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Hi Raven22, do you think there is a need for a 60mm mortar in Australian service? I only ask noting some our allies utilise it (USMC, UK & I believe NZ just signed up for some). Cheers.
 
R

Richo99

Active Member
MickB said:
While checking the Shepard Media link on an OPSSG post about Taiwan noticed a headline about Australian army introducing new 81mm mortars.
Behind paywall.

Would have thought that when the time came to replace the old mortars that 120mm would be introduced. Thus one supply chain if vehicle mounted 120mms are introduced.
Click to expand...
This months Defence Technology Review has a report on page 5, which details the purchase as being 176 x M252A1 mortars, with 50 units already in Australia, and the balance by June 2020.. Also comes with a fancy new handheld ballistic computer.
 
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