Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Todjaeger]

Selling them whole to another user would have to be approved by Australia, France and Germany you would think and any specific equipment supplied by other Countries would have to be approved by that Country. Being a multi National project may make it difficult to sell them off.
Talking of M-113s the upgraded Australian ones may be another item that might just attract a buyer or 2 with the large number of poorer Countries in the world still operating them for the foreseeable future. According to Wikipedia* there are currently 46 users.
*Treated as a Ball Park figure at best

Any on-sale of the M113's would need US approval due to FMS and ITARS. There might also be some Aussie Tiger kit this applies to as well, since Australia integrated the Hellfire onto the Tiger ARH.

Assuming all the approvals could be gotten out of the way for a sale of the Tigers, it is sort of questionable in my mind just who would really be all that interested in them. In terms of flightworthy status I suspect they would be fine, but from an operational or operationally useful standpoint it would be questionable. As is fairly typical with Australian kit, there is a strong bespoke element which I believe is mostly in the sensors, avionics, and weapon fitouts. That in turn would mean that either any purchasing operator would need to continue using the ex-Aussie Tigers 'as is' or have them undergo some sort of SLEP/MLU to change the helicopter configuration to one they either are already using, or would be more suitable for the purchasing user's needs.

Given what I can recall of the projected costs to carry out needed upgrades to the Aussie Tigers if they were to be retained in service (as opposed to replaced by a new combat helicopter purchase) I am not certain that there would really be much value in a sale.

 

[Redlands18]

Any on-sale of the M113's would need US approval due to FMS and ITARS. There might also be some Aussie Tiger kit this applies to as well, since Australia integrated the Hellfire onto the Tiger ARH.

Assuming all the approvals could be gotten out of the way for a sale of the Tigers, it is sort of questionable in my mind just who would really be all that interested in them. In terms of flightworthy status I suspect they would be fine, but from an operational or operationally useful standpoint it would be questionable. As is fairly typical with Australian kit, there is a strong bespoke element which I believe is mostly in the sensors, avionics, and weapon fitouts. That in turn would mean that either any purchasing operator would need to continue using the ex-Aussie Tigers 'as is' or have them undergo some sort of SLEP/MLU to change the helicopter configuration to one they either are already using, or would be more suitable for the purchasing user's needs.

Given what I can recall of the projected costs to carry out needed upgrades to the Aussie Tigers if they were to be retained in service (as opposed to replaced by a new combat helicopter purchase) I am not certain that there would really be much value in a sale.

I am well aware of the difficulties of on selling any ADF equipment but there are Nations who would be cleared for sales as the sale of the Hornets to Canada has shown.
The French, Germans and or the Spanish might take the Tigers and strip them for any useful spare parts but other than that I would have doubts about any sale.
Iraq, Afghanistan, Phillipines and several others are current users of early model M-113s and the Australian refitted M-113AS4s would definitely be a decent upgrade path for Countries experienced in using the M-113 that can’t afford a more modern IFV and would be acceptable to the US.

 

[t68]

I am well aware of the difficulties of on selling any ADF equipment but there are Nations who would be cleared for sales as the sale of the Hornets to Canada has shown.
The French, Germans and or the Spanish might take the Tigers and strip them for any useful spare parts but other than that I would have doubts about any sale.
Iraq, Afghanistan, Phillipines and several others are current users of early model M-113s and the Australian refitted M-113AS4s would definitely be a decent upgrade path for Countries experienced in using the M-113 that can’t afford a more modern IFV and would be acceptable to the US.

I agree on the parts debate, just look at the USMC buy all the UK’s fleet of barriers as parts hulls, I can’t see someone like NZ buying them like the Seasprogs least they had operational knowledge prior to purchasing

 

[ngatimozart]

I agree on the parts debate, just look at the USMC buy all the UK’s fleet of barriers as parts hulls, I can’t see someone like NZ buying them like the Seasprogs least they had operational knowledge prior to purchasing

Nope we appear to be getting a bit wary of eurokit now as well, after observing the ADF and our experiences with the NH90. Apparently we have the highest NH90 availability rate of the NH90 users group, but it's significantly hard work doing that. According to the rotorheads it's a great aircraft and it does everything asked of it, however it is expensive to operate and the support by the manufacturer leaves a hell of a lot to be desired. It is that manufacturers support that is the major problem, so would be a big reason why NZDF would not touch the Tigers with a 40 ft barge pole. The other reason is that the ARH capability is not part of our CONOPS. The interesting point with euro aviation kit is where it involves a commercial aviation product, such as the KC-30 or A109, manufacturers after sales service appears to be on par with the commercial airliner / helicopter market, which is excellent.

 

[Todjaeger]

Iraq, Afghanistan, Phillipines and several others are current users of early model M-113s and the Australian refitted M-113AS4s would definitely be a decent upgrade path for Countries experienced in using the M-113 that can’t afford a more modern IFV and would be acceptable to the US.

I would not automatically assume that the US would permit the sale of Australian M113's to other countries, including countries which already operate the M113. After all, the sale of Kiwi M113's which were being retired and replaced by NZLAV's to an Australian was blocked.

 

[Redlands18]

I would not automatically assume that the US would permit the sale of Australian M113's to other countries, including countries which already operate the M113. After all, the sale of Kiwi M113's which were being retired and replaced by NZLAV's to an Australian was blocked.

I am not automatically assuming anything as I said in my post “that would be acceptable to the US”.
The Government to Government transfer of used Military equipment is not the same as selling it to a private buyer.

 

[t68]

Nope we appear to be getting a bit wary of eurokit now as well, after observing the ADF and our experiences with the NH90. Apparently we have the highest NH90 availability rate of the NH90 users group, but it's significantly hard work doing that. According to the rotorheads it's a great aircraft and it does everything asked of it, however it is expensive to operate and the support by the manufacturer leaves a hell of a lot to be desired. It is that manufacturers support that is the major problem, so would be a big reason why NZDF would not touch the Tigers with a 40 ft barge pole. The other reason is that the ARH capability is not part of our CONOPS. The interesting point with euro aviation kit is where it involves a commercial aviation product, such as the KC-30 or A109, manufacturers after sales service appears to be on par with the commercial airliner / helicopter market, which is excellent.

Sorry I didn’t make my post clear enough in regards to RNZAF and ARH, in that they are not a previous user of the type so it’s not like a replacement like the sea sprite was. As far as I’m awere NZ didn’t even attempt to turn any of its Iroquois into a gunship like the RAAF Bushranger helicopter gunship


Edit

I tried to see if the Kiwis did any mods to it’s aircraft, but I cane across this from the AWM on one of the RAAF birds hit by ground fire and landing on the beach, according to the article the aircraft was repaired even after being swamped by the tides imagine trying to do that with all the electronics in ARH!!


A No 9 Squadron, RAAF, Bushranger helicopter gunship, hit by enemy ground fire was forced to make ...

 

[oldsig127]

I tried to see if the Kiwis did any mods to it’s aircraft, but I cane across this from the AWM on one of the RAAF birds hit by ground fire and landing on the beach, according to the article the aircraft was repaired even after being swamped by the tides imagine trying to do that with all the electronics in ARH!!


A No 9 Squadron, RAAF, Bushranger helicopter gunship, hit by enemy ground fire was forced to make ...

I don't think that the Tiger is the only modern helicopter which has electronics unlikely to survive a dunking without fairly protracted and expensive effort to return it to service. But it *is* European so probably automatically more sensitive ...

oldsig

 

[vonnoobie]

I imagine the easiest way to get a quick disposal would be to strip any US elements (which may be useful spares in any future replacement) and sell the remainder back to airbus helicopters. Finding a specified nation willing to take them all on will be extremely difficult however Airbus would likely be able to refurbish them at a lower cost and sell them off below new build cost to new customers.

 

[Redlands18]

I imagine the easiest way to get a quick disposal would be to strip any US elements (which may be useful spares in any future replacement) and sell the remainder back to airbus helicopters. Finding a specified nation willing to take them all on will be extremely difficult however Airbus would likely be able to refurbish them at a lower cost and sell them off below new build cost to new customers.

Airbus may even offer to take them as a Trade in as part of their Tender for Air 4503 if they get that far.

 

[t68]

Airbus may even offer to take them as a Trade in as part of their Tender for Air 4503 if they get that far.

Wouldn’t you mean Project Land 2097 Phase 4?

 

[vonnoobie]

Airbus may even offer to take them as a Trade in as part of their Tender for Air 4503 if they get that far.

Very possible. Not uncommon for companies to take back the old stock in exchange for a discount on new sale. Gives them something to sell to some one with a tighter budget at lower cost while keeping the production line humming not to mention increasing the number of customers needing spare parts. That said I personally dont think it will make it that far. No one else in our region interested in them so the Airbus production line does bugger all for us except to build our own aircraft at a premium for a limited production run. Go for the Apache or Viper and we have dozens in the region between various nations and the US who we might be able to slip into supplying some parts for.

 

[oldsig127]

Wouldn’t you mean Project Land 2097 Phase 4?

I doubt if he does. That's the light utility project.

Although I suppose they could offer to trade them in as part payment, like a farmer trading in a clapped out tractor for a new Renault van, and meanwhile buying a new truck from the Ford dealership down the road. Seems like coordinating the deals would be hell.

oldsig

 

[cdxbow]

Very possible. Not uncommon for companies to take back the old stock in exchange for a discount on new sale. Gives them something to sell to some one with a tighter budget at lower cost while keeping the production line humming not to mention increasing the number of customers needing spare parts. That said I personally dont think it will make it that far. No one else in our region interested in them so the Airbus production line does bugger all for us except to build our own aircraft at a premium for a limited production run. Go for the Apache or Viper and we have dozens in the region between various nations and the US who we might be able to slip into supplying some parts for.

Would it be possible to make them autonomous? With digital flight control systems there must be a nice bus that you access all the flight control systems from, so perhaps offering the opportunity for remote or autonomous control. I hate the sort of waste of money and peoples time this program represents. I think it's the right decision to dump them and presumably go with the Apache or Viper. As many posters have pointed out, there doesn't seem to be a big second hand market for them.

 

[oldsig127]

I hate the sort of waste of money and peoples time this program represents. I think it's the right decision to dump them and presumably go with the Apache or Viper.

As someone pointed out earlier in this discussion, they only have to be in use for another five years to reach their planned service life. Not necessarily a waste of time and money given that they represent our first steps with a new capability. Now, who feels confident the replacement will reach IOC in time?

oldsig

 

[Redlands18]

Wouldn’t you mean Project Land 2097 Phase 4?

No I meant 4503, the ARH replacement, I expect Airbus to put up the Tiger MK3 as a replacement for the Tiger don’t know if they can win or not.

 

[vonnoobie]

Would it be possible to make them autonomous? With digital flight control systems there must be a nice bus that you access all the flight control systems from, so perhaps offering the opportunity for remote or autonomous control. I hate the sort of waste of money and peoples time this program represents. I think it's the right decision to dump them and presumably go with the Apache or Viper. As many posters have pointed out, there doesn't seem to be a big second hand market for them.

Strictly speaking (And for the record I am no expert, Im just a panel beater.. ie: you pay me to hit your car with a hammer lol.) it should be possible, The technology is there but where things I imagine would come into play is how well it responds (ie: Lag time, reaction speeds etc) and the safety of said asset from being hacked and turned on our own troops. I imagine there are systems to improve and prevent such issues but they would also be all new systems that would have to be integrated which can be very risky and costly even more so when you fitting it after the fact rather then from a clean sheet design. Might be easy enough but might also be like trying to fit an engine from a Ferrari into a Commodore.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Australian Defence Magazine

Thales buys insolvent Hawkei engine manufacturer
By Ewen Levick | Sydney | 26 July 2019
Updated 26 July, 10:27


Thales has bought bankrupt Hawkei engine manufacturer Steyr Motors, it has emerged.

The Austrian company went into receivership in February, threatening the supply of engines to the Hawkei progam and the jobs of 150 Thales workers in Bendigo.

The news saw some vehicles slated for Initial Operational Capability delayed, although Final Operational Capability is set to occur as scheduled. Army has procured engines for the vehicles scheduled under low rate initial production and has an order for the subsequent 1,000 engines.

Thales buys insolvent Hawkei engine manufacturer - Australian Defence Magazine


Sensible way to prevent a lengthy delay in the Hawkei programme.

 

[Tasman]

Twitter posts by the Chief of Navy and the Commander Australian Fleet have revealed that an M1A1 Main Battle Tank has been successfully landed using an LHD landing craft during Talisman Sabre.
The photos suggest a relatively calm sea but pleasing to see nevertheless.

Chief of Navy Australia on Twitter

Commander Australian Fleet on Twitter

I debated whether to post this in the RAN thread!

Tas

 

[Stampede]

Twitter posts by the Chief of Navy and the Commander Australian Fleet have revealed that an M1A1 Main Battle Tank has been successfully landed using an LHD landing craft during Talisman Sabre.
The photos suggest a relatively calm sea but pleasing to see nevertheless.

Chief of Navy Australia on Twitter

Commander Australian Fleet on Twitter

I debated whether to post this in the RAN thread!

Tas

Thanks for the post
Good to see that Army / Navy are looking for a way forward in moving an MBT from ship to shore with a LLC.
I concede the sea state looks friendly and notice from the pictures not a great deal of black paint evident when the LCM 1E is loaded, compared to when the MBT leaves and the landing craft is empty.
I think if I was part of the landing craft crew I'd have inflatable undies in addition to my life jacket.
Margin of error and all that!


Regards S