Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[MARKMILES77]

Question for anyone with knowledge:

Speaking with someone who uses the new G wagon fire trucks for Forest Fire Management Victoria (They fight fires in Victoria on Government land), was suprised to hear him state that they are proving to be hideously unreliable. Constantly flicking into "Limp Home Mode" for no explicable reason which can't be fixed by the on truck crew.
Mercedes Benz Australia seems unable to find a definite fix and FFM crews are choosing to drive the old Landcruiser fire trucks if they have a choice.
He states Australian Army G Wagons have the same issue.
Anyone else heard of this issue?

 

[Takao]

Question for anyone with knowledge:

Speaking with someone who uses the new G wagon fire trucks for Forest Fire Management Victoria (They fight fires in Victoria on Government land), was suprised to hear him state that they are proving to be hideously unreliable. Constantly flicking into "Limp Home Mode" for no explicable reason which can't be fixed by the on truck crew.
Mercedes Benz Australia seems unable to find a definite fix and FFM crews are choosing to drive the old Landcruiser fire trucks if they have a choice.
He states Australian Army G Wagons have the same issue.
Anyone else heard of this issue?

Wasn't an issue with my G-wagons - the problems I did have were all traced back to definite causes. There was no excessive number of limp-home failures either. I haven't had any since 2015 though, something may have cropped up recently.

 

[ngatimozart]

Not really Australian Army but it appears that Australia is offering the F-88 Steyr rifle (as F-90) to India as it's next CQB rifle.

Australia wants to sell India its next CQB rifle — here’s what they’re offering

 

[Traveller]

Great....like we need the Indians as enemies.... The F88 and its ADI variations are a piece of plastic #$%^

We used to make them for the Kiwis....last I was in a mess I heard the Kiwis were going M4. Australia is the only adopting country to develop this rifle. Thales will need a lot of "Parade Gloss" to polish this t$%d.

 

[vonnoobie]

Great....like we need the Indians as enemies.... The F88 and its ADI variations are a piece of plastic #$%^

We used to make them for the Kiwis....last I was in a mess I heard the Kiwis were going M4. Australia is the only adopting country to develop this rifle. Thales will need a lot of "Parade Gloss" to polish this t$%d.

Quick to diss the Steyr but might want to read up on the issues NZ has had with the replacement rifles (MARS-L - NZDF designation for CQB16 version of M4 rifle).

Is the new Styer really that bad?

 

[Nurse]

Great....like we need the Indians as enemies.... The F88 and its ADI variations are a piece of plastic #$%^

We used to make them for the Kiwis....last I was in a mess I heard the Kiwis were going M4. Australia is the only adopting country to develop this rifle. Thales will need a lot of "Parade Gloss" to polish this t$%d.[/QUOTE

Great....like we need the Indians as enemies.... The F88 and its ADI variations are a piece of plastic #$%^

We used to make them for the Kiwis....last I was in a mess I heard the Kiwis were going M4. Australia is the only adopting country to develop this rifle. Thales will need a lot of "Parade Gloss" to polish this t$%d.

I used the original Steyr in the 90/00’s with no drama at all. It shot, it killed and in my experience had very few stoppages. Im told by a operator friend of mine that the only reason SASR went for M4’s etc was that they were special
All that said, I wish we’d got an upgraded L1A1, then and now.

 

[ngatimozart]

Quick to diss the Steyr but might want to read up on the issues NZ has had with the replacement rifles (MARS-L - NZDF designation for CQB16 version of M4 rifle).

Is the new Styer really that bad?

The issues with the MARS rifles were fixed quickly by the manufacturer at their cost. The Steyr F-88 was compared in robust scientific trials against other contenders and didn't met NZDF requirements. That's why the LMT MARS-L won the tender. Also the quality of the MARS-L is endorsed when the 1NZSFR have taken it as their standard weapon as well without modification, something I note that Aussie SASR haven't done with the F-88.

 

[Traveller]

I used the original Steyr in the 90/00’s with no drama at all. It shot, it killed and in my experience had very few stoppages. Im told by a operator friend of mine that the only reason SASR went for M4’s etc was that they were special
All that said, I wish we’d got an upgraded L1A1, then and now.

I have used the F88 also. I joined in the days of jungle greens, black GP boots and SLR's. I've seen plenty of stoppages with the F88 series and I am not impressed.. As to SASR, the official reason was that the M4 more easily accommodated their bolt-on go fast kit. Later variations of the old F88 have taken this into account, eg the introduction of NFE as standard kit. Given the choice in most cases I would prefer the SLR with select fire. Despite pop views, the SLR can deliver controlled 3 round bursts.

 

[Volkodav]

I have used the F88 also. I joined in the days of jungle greens, black GP boots and SLR's. I've seen plenty of stoppages with the F88 series and I am not impressed.. As to SASR, the official reason was that the M4 more easily accommodated their bolt-on go fast kit. Later variations of the old F88 have taken this into account, eg the introduction of NFE as standard kit. Given the choice in most cases I would prefer the SLR with select fire. Despite pop views, the SLR can deliver controlled 3 round bursts.

I must admit I preferred shooting the SLR to the F-88 but did better (much better) on the range with the Styer. My favourite, and the weapon I did best with in comparison to others was the F-1 SMG. Real world effectiveness though, my least favourite, the F-88, was the best in that it had enough hitting power and was more likely to get a hit, at the combat ranges it was likely to be used at.

 

[ngatimozart]

Never had the opportunity to fire the F-1 SMG and would love to have. My favourite was the SLR and still is. I did have the opportunity to fire the Steyr in NZ service and didn't like it purely because, to my mind, the 5.56 mm round is too light and hasn't the stopping power or reach of the 7.62 x 51 mm NATO round. I also used the Sterling SMG and that was a nice weapon.

 

[Traveller]

Never had the opportunity to fire the F-1 SMG and would love to have. My favourite was the SLR and still is. I did have the opportunity to fire the Steyr in NZ service and didn't like it purely because, to my mind, the 5.56 mm round is too light and hasn't the stopping power or reach of the 7.62 x 51 mm NATO round. I also used the Sterling SMG and that was a nice weapon.

We had the F1 smg when I joined in '81. Never did like the overhead canted 32 round magazine. It was ok for spray and pray. On my first qual we did something unusual which turned out to be a life lesson. Following TOETs (Tests of Elementary Training) which was strip and assembly and stoppage drills, we went to the 23m range. We did the standard qualification practice. Then the WO1 had the targets (Figure 11 type, standing soldier silhouette) set in sets of 3 spaced at 1m. We were given 2 magazines to expend as we wished, the only direction was that no rounds were to go over the butt.

I was brought up on Vic Morrow in "Combat" on tv, where he mowed down Germans for half and hour in each episode and never did a mag change. Yours truly stood and let go from the hip at my 3 targets. So after making safe we went forward to view and patch targets, which didn't take long for me. I was amazed that out of 32 rounds I had only several strikes at 23m! It really blew away any John Wayne antics from my thoughts. That WO1 knew what he was doing.

I hefted a Sterling in NZ on exercise at Dip Flats (?) out of RNZAF Woodbourne. I never fired it but I liked it more that the F1, maybe just grass is greener but it hefted better from memory.

 

[Volkodav]

We had the F1 smg when I joined in '81. Never did like the overhead canted 32 round magazine. It was ok for spray and pray. On my first qual we did something unusual which turned out to be a life lesson. Following TOETs (Tests of Elementary Training) which was strip and assembly and stoppage drills, we went to the 23m range. We did the standard qualification practice. Then the WO1 had the targets (Figure 11 type, standing soldier silhouette) set in sets of 3 spaced at 1m. We were given 2 magazines to expend as we wished, the only direction was that no rounds were to go over the butt.

I was brought up on Vic Morrow in "Combat" on tv, where he mowed down Germans for half and hour in each episode and never did a mag change. Yours truly stood and let go from the hip at my 3 targets. So after making safe we went forward to view and patch targets, which didn't take long for me. I was amazed that out of 32 rounds I had only several strikes at 23m! It really blew away any John Wayne antics from my thoughts. That WO1 knew what he was doing.

I hefted a Sterling in NZ on exercise at Dip Flats (?) out of RNZAF Woodbourne. I never fired it but I liked it more that the F1, maybe just grass is greener but it hefted better from memory.

The F1 was very easy to squeeze of a single round and very accurate doing so. Each single actually felt like two as you had the recoil from the shot and then the mass of the bolt carrier hitting the buffer. Even as a leftie it was easy to get a good sight picture through the iron sights to the left of the mag and simply put round after round through the centre of mass on the old figure 11. Whether you would be able to squeeze off aimed single shots with rounds coming in at you is another matter ter entirely

 

[Takao]

Interesting. More than 20 years on the rifle and its new offspring now. What exactly is the problem?

It's fired every time I've needed it to, is easy to clean and use, accurate and fires the same round as the M-4 family. There are plenty of stories around why SOCOMD use the M-4 family and not the F88 family, but none of them relate to hitting power or normal use.

Shooting live I could probably count the number of stoppages on one hand. Blank is another issue, but who cares about that. I've seen more stoppages with the F89, but that doesn't even worry me as I would never consider that a poor weapon for what it is meant to do.

 

[shanes_world_05]

Sorry I thought I would throw my 2 cents in from a NZ perspective. Used NZ IW Steyr and the new MARS-L a wee bit. The Steyrs were a great design. Simple and geared towards training alot of people quick. The Mars is also a great system but the two sighting systems whilst brilliant take more time to setup properly and teach but also more time real use to get the best out of them. Muscle memory when the blood is up and your brain shuts down. I.e crossing a large room whilst taking in the surroundings, watching mates, feeding info back - contact front, and your go to the ACOG instead of RMR- those sorts of things. However my team was getting regular head silhouettes at 550 to 600 metres. For us and the amount of training time we get that was good and probably alittle outside of what we could have achieved with the Steyr.
Flip side is that the Steyr was alot better in terms of balance in hand. Why is that important? Stacked up on doors when you can't make noise and something comes up and you have to hold there (another team needs to catch up across the building or something like that). If you have a M203 on or one of your team is not quite as fit or is a smaller female the balance is a bit of a loss.
Reliability particularly on blanks on the MARS is just another level. Steyr with Live rounds not an issue but with blanks it was a good training tool to a point then it would just hold up serials and cost training time. MARS - so rare to have stoppages that some guys need more time to drill in stoppage drills.
Handling wise for reloads the MARS is better but to be honest the Steyr was still pretty good compared to AK or someother platforms we have access to.
Biggest issue was U/s weapons. One excercise I had one weapon have a separation of the retention lug on the gas cyclinder and the piston, spring and plug exited the weapon whilst doing a demo for the CO and then my replacement weapon lost the mag button retention bolt. I am rough but not that rough.

Whilst there were a few other stories from initial issues interms of manufacturing issues these were resolved pretty quick (two of our units people went to US to oversea it being resolved) and often with the initiative coming rectification from LMT. They have done a very impressive job and have a big vote of confidence from people close to the project.

The bigger issue was the loss of the LSW 7.62. However that has also been resolved.
After all of this though Knights Armament are promoting a 6kg 7.62 assault machine gun that looks like a game change and has a pedigree dating back to the late seventies and involvement from some of the biggest names in western arms development. Alas.

My view though is that small arms NZ sections have generally been quite well equipped in the past. But heavy weapons is where we are woefully lacking and will be the reason for our casualties in the future not the differences in small arms. Australia on the other hand is paying up and maintaining the high end capabilities that I think will matter more.

 

[old faithful]

Magazine changes are clumsy on bullpup rifles, and often require the shooter to take his/her eyes off the target.
The trigger guard on the F88 is just horrible as is the safety mech.
It is designed to be fired whilst wearing mittons, one would need fingers like ET to keep your finger outside the trigger guard.
Any way, its what we have and new soldiers who don't have experience on other weapons (and I'm not talking about firing a few rounds on a range) love it and if that's so, then OK.

 

[shanes_world_05]

Magazine changes are clumsy on bullpup rifles, and often require the shooter to take his/her eyes off the target.
The trigger guard on the F88 is just horrible as is the safety mech.
It is designed to be fired whilst wearing mittons, one would need fingers like ET to keep your finger outside the trigger guard.
Any way, its what we have and new soldiers who don't have experience on other weapons (and I'm not talking about firing a few rounds on a range) love it and if that's so, then OK.

And fair enough. I'm sure the average digger will be a hell of alot more proficient than most soldiers armed with something else.

Yeah mag changes took alot of training to get right and maintain SA which was harder on the girls and less fit but I thought the cross bolt safety was alot quicker than the 90 degree throw on AR's. Our two cadres who were tier 1 preferred that aspect of the Steyr. Trigger guard - yeah but never found it a big deal. It wasn't great but no UD's from it that I can remember.

 

[Takao]

Magazine changes are clumsy on bullpup rifles, and often require the shooter to take his/her eyes off the target.
The trigger guard on the F88 is just horrible as is the safety mech.
It is designed to be fired whilst wearing mittons, one would need fingers like ET to keep your finger outside the trigger guard.
Any way, its what we have and new soldiers who don't have experience on other weapons (and I'm not talking about firing a few rounds on a range) love it and if that's so, then OK.

Fair enough. After bunches of magazine changes it gets a habit you can do without looking (like anything), but those first few dozen were fumbles. The ability to do this actually cause one of our live/blank scares last decade! Young RMC cadet changing the magazine without looking accidentally drops it. Still holding a sight picture he reaches back feels the mag, puts it in and bang. Turns out someone had left a live mag there months before, and his blank mag dropped just beside it. Poor bloke!

I've never seen the fingers as an issue. If you can't hold it out parallel to the barrel you can hold it diagonally downwards. Certainly none of my small handed peers or subordinates had an issue.

But that last sentence is key I think. If you don't know otherwise, and quite fankly for the vast majority carrying the rifle, it's more than good enough.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Interesting photo of a Hawkei from Plasan's website with anti-RPG Armour.
Doesn't look simple to attach!

Plasan (@Plasan_Int) | Twitter

 

[oldsig127]

Election announcements and all but...

ABC News24 is reporting that the PM will today announce the building of a new mobile artillery capability for Army in Geelong.

Wondering which of the already postulated systems this will be.

oldsig

 

[Raven22]

Election announcements and all but...

ABC News24 is reporting that the PM will today announce the building of a new mobile artillery capability for Army in Geelong.

Wondering which of the already postulated systems this will be.

oldsig

The press release indicates that this is a 155mm SPG, essentially relaunching the project that was canned in 2012. A total of 30 systems was mentioned, which is a surprisingly high number.

I must say, it is a surprising development. I hadn’t heard anything about it. It is the key missing system in a proper mechanised combined arms team, so it makes sense.