Australian Army Discussions and Updates

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PeterM

Active Member
I was doing some research into the possible options for Land 400 Ph3 and came across an interesting article "Resurgence" in the ADBR March-April 2018 issue.
Richard Cho, Hanwha Land Systems Sydney based vice president for business development and strategy is quoted as stating that Hanwha can offer a package of the AS21, plus the K9/K10 (AS9/AS10) and the K239 Chunmoo MLRS (AS239) to the ADF for less than the Land 400 phase 3 budget for IFVs. The ADBR Sept-Oct 2018 issue "Out of the Bag" article on the specific bids for Land 400 ph3 suggests that Hanwha is pitching the AS9/AS10 despite no specific requirement. Presumably this would be an optional extra in addition to the requirements, however, I found the possible inclusion in the tender intriguing.

Regardless, I am curious to find out more on the Hanwha bid, I expect it would be quite competitive from a cost perspective. The Sept/Oct article mentions that the Australian manufacturing capability would also create a strategic industrial reserve for Korea, which is intriguing.
 
Nurse

Nurse

New Member
PeterM said:
I was doing some research into the possible options for Land 400 Ph3 and came across an interesting article "Resurgence" in the ADBR March-April 2018 issue.
Richard Cho, Hanwha Land Systems Sydney based vice president for business development and strategy is quoted as stating that Hanwha can offer a package of the AS21, plus the K9/K10 (AS9/AS10) and the K239 Chunmoo MLRS (AS239) to the ADF for less than the Land 400 phase 3 budget for IFVs. The ADBR Sept-Oct 2018 issue "Out of the Bag" article on the specific bids for Land 400 ph3 suggests that Hanwha is pitching the AS9/AS10 despite no specific requirement. Presumably this would be an optional extra in addition to the requirements, however, I found the possible inclusion in the tender intriguing.

Regardless, I am curious to find out more on the Hanwha bid, I expect it would be quite competitive from a cost perspective. The Sept/Oct article mentions that the Australian manufacturing capability would also create a strategic industrial reserve for Korea, which is intriguing.
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I’ve always felt we should have fulfilled Land 17 (ex arty medic here btw) The Korean offer wasn’t necessarily my first pick but anything possibly would have been better than nothing. This offers that, IFV’s and the MLRS we’re after for a fairly bargain price it seems. Quality and through life support? Can’t be too bad surely...
 
P

PeterM

Active Member
LAND 19 Phase 7B SRGBAD gets gate 2 approval.

NASAMS with CEA radar and Hawkei.

"The baseline system comprises the Raytheon AN/MPQ-64F1 Sentinel air defense radar, the Mk 1 canister launcher which can carry six AIM-120 AMRAAMs, and the Kongsberg Fire Distribution Centre (FDC).

The Enhanced solution adds advanced electronically-scanned array (AESA) and electro-optical sensors, an upgraded vehicle-borne high-mobility launcher (HML), and the adoption of the latest Mk 2 canister launcher. Both of these launchers will allow multiple types of effectors to be employed.

The Enhanced option’s sensors including a mobile CEA Tactical (CEATAC) AESA fire-control radar which is deployed from a housing on the rear of a modified Thales Hawkei 2-door protected mobility vehicle (PMV) or on a towed trailer, a larger CEA Operational (CEAOPS) AESA search radar mounted on a Rheinmetall HX77 8×8 heavy truck, and a Raytheon MTS-A electro-optical infrared (EO/IR) sensor with a 5m telescopic mast and housing, also mounted on a Hawkei. "

EXCLUSIVE: LAND 19 Phase 7B passes Gate 2 with the Enhanced NASAMS – ADBR
 
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seaspear

Well-Known Member
Is there an aim to convert the present stockpile of AMRAAM to AMRAAM-ER because of the extra range to 200 kilometres , this appears to go further than the SLAMRAAM of the U.S army project which was cancelled using the Humvee
 
B

BigM60

Member
seaspear said:
Is there an aim to convert the present stockpile of AMRAAM to AMRAAM-ER because of the extra range to 200 kilometres , this appears to go further than the SLAMRAAM of the U.S army project which was cancelled using the Humvee
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Range or coverage? AMRAAM-ER won’t get you 200 km in range. It’s around 50 km. It would cover 200 square km of territory in theory. RAAF project Air 6500 will include a medium range system. Patriot & SAMP/T are possible candidates and are in the 100 - 120 km range. I am doubtful AAMRAAM -ER will enter service in Australia if we acquire the proposed medium range system.
 
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aussienscale

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
BigM60 said:
Range or coverage? AMRAAM-ER won’t get you 200 km in range. It’s around 50 km. It would cover 200 square km of territory in theory. RAAF project Air 6500 will include a medium range system. Patriot & SAMP/T are possible candidates and are in the 100 - 120 km range. I am doubtful AAMRAAM -ER will enter service in Australia if we acquire the proposed medium range system.
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This will answer part of the question, as for other possible candidates ? I have a few theories, will put together a post when I have the time to put it all together

Cheers

Australia – AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency
 
P

PeterM

Active Member
seaspear said:
Is there an aim to convert the present stockpile of AMRAAM to AMRAAM-ER because of the extra range to 200 kilometres , this appears to go further than the SLAMRAAM of the U.S army project which was cancelled using the Humvee
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My understanding is that AMRAAM-ER is ground based only, so we wouldn’t be upgrading all of our AMRAAM stocks. The RAAF, for example, is currently introducing AIM-120D for the Super Hornets and F-35s.

The ABDR article I referenced earlier has a few insights.

“In March 14 it was announced that Australia would buy up to 108 AIM-120C-7s for its LAND 19 Phase 7B NASAMS system”​

The selection of the AIM-120C-7 is interesting given the RAAF is currently introducing AIM-120D. Clearly there is reasons for the selection of the different version for our NASAMs.

“The AMRAAM-ER is essentially a RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow (ESSM) airframe and booster with an AIM-120C-7 guidance section.”​

The RAN already has CEAMOUNT and CEAFAR in service with the ESSM.

“CEA Technologies first unveiled a prototype of the CEAFAR Tactical Radar, or CEATAC – a land-based radar version of its successful maritime-based CEAFAR2 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) – at last September’s Land Forces 2018 exposition in Adelaide.”

“CEA’s Operational Sensor System, or CEAOPS is a scaled development of the CEAFAR2 system and has been developed from the company’s previously-displayed Ground Based Multi-Mission Radar (GBMMR) prototype.”​

Given the current experience with CEA/ESSM for the RAN and that the AMRAAM-ER uses the same guidance section as the missile stock we are buying for our NASAMs, I would expect that AMRAAM-ER would definitely be on the table as a future capability option.

The AMRAAM-ER is relatively new:

“A development AMRAAM-ER was successfully tested with NASAMS in August 2016, and wind tunnel testing of the definitive configuration was completed in January 2019.”​
 
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BigM60

Member
PeterM said:
My understanding is that AMRAAM-ER is ground based only, so we wouldn’t be upgrading all of our AMRAAM stocks. The RAAF, for example, is currently introducing AIM-120D for the Super Hornets and F-35s.

The ABDR article I referenced earlier has a few insights.

“In March 14 it was announced that Australia would buy up to 108 AIM-120C-7s for its LAND 19 Phase 7B NASAMS system”​

The selection of the AIM-120C-7 is interesting given the RAAF is currently introducing AIM-120D. Clearly there is reasons for the selection of the different version for our NASAMs.

“The AMRAAM-ER is essentially a RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow (ESSM) airframe and booster with an AIM-120C-7 guidance section.”​

The RAN already has CEAMOUNT and CEAFAR in service with the ESSM.

“CEA Technologies first unveiled a prototype of the CEAFAR Tactical Radar, or CEATAC – a land-based radar version of its successful maritime-based CEAFAR2 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) – at last September’s Land Forces 2018 exposition in Adelaide.”

“CEA’s Operational Sensor System, or CEAOPS is a scaled development of the CEAFAR2 system and has been developed from the company’s previously-displayed Ground Based Multi-Mission Radar (GBMMR) prototype.”​

Given the current experience with CEA/ESSM for the RAN and that the AMRAAM-ER uses the same guidance section as the missile stock we are buying for our NASAMs, I would expect that AMRAAM-ER would definitely be on the table as a future capability option.

The AMRAAM-ER is relatively new:

“A development AMRAAM-ER was successfully tested with NASAMS in August 2016, and wind tunnel testing of the definitive configuration was completed in January 2019.”​
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Selection of the AIM120C-7 probably just comes down to nothing more than, that's the missile that has been tested and cleared to be launched from the system. I don't believe they have shot a D from the system yet. Apart from the USA, AUS and the UK in the future, that's it for 120D users. Why clear a missile that is very expensive and isn't used by the majority of existing or potential NASAMS users? The 120D may add something to NASAMS but if I was a defence force that could afford that missile, I would want it protecting my most valuable assets - a fighter and a pilot. Future AMRAAM-ER for Australia? Not to the exclusion of a proper medium range system.
 
Ranger25

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
PeterM said:
My understanding is that AMRAAM-ER is ground based only, so we wouldn’t be upgrading all of our AMRAAM stocks. The RAAF, for example, is currently introducing AIM-120D for the Super Hornets and F-35s.

The ABDR article I referenced earlier has a few insights.

“In March 14 it was announced that Australia would buy up to 108 AIM-120C-7s for its LAND 19 Phase 7B NASAMS system”​

The selection of the AIM-120C-7 is interesting given the RAAF is currently introducing AIM-120D. Clearly there is reasons for the selection of the different version for our NASAMs.

“The AMRAAM-ER is essentially a RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow (ESSM) airframe and booster with an AIM-120C-7 guidance section.”​

The RAN already has CEAMOUNT and CEAFAR in service with the ESSM.

“CEA Technologies first unveiled a prototype of the CEAFAR Tactical Radar, or CEATAC – a land-based radar version of its successful maritime-based CEAFAR2 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) – at last September’s Land Forces 2018 exposition in Adelaide.”

“CEA’s Operational Sensor System, or CEAOPS is a scaled development of the CEAFAR2 system and has been developed from the company’s previously-displayed Ground Based Multi-Mission Radar (GBMMR) prototype.”​

Given the current experience with CEA/ESSM for the RAN and that the AMRAAM-ER uses the same guidance section as the missile stock we are buying for our NASAMs, I would expect that AMRAAM-ER would definitely be on the table as a future capability option.

The AMRAAM-ER is relatively new:

“A development AMRAAM-ER was successfully tested with NASAMS in August 2016, and wind tunnel testing of the definitive configuration was completed in January 2019.”​
Click to expand...

Ground based SAM for sure

Tested against targets last August from a NASAMS launcher and sentinel radar


Raytheon: Goes long, flies high - Raytheon’s new extended-range, surface-to-air missile will enhance proven air defense system

US Army also testing


Raytheon completes wind tunnel testing on AMRAAM-ER missile
 
S

seaspear

Well-Known Member
I have read that U.S defence secretary Bill Gates cancelled this program (slamraam) in 2011 on budgetary reasons ,the national guard has appealed because of the age of present system but nothing so far has been announced
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
seaspear said:
I have read that U.S defence secretary Bill Gates cancelled this program (slamraam) in 2011 on budgetary reasons ,the national guard has appealed because of the age of present system but nothing so far has been announced
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@seaspear Howabout providing a source and Bill Gates sure as hell wasn't any US SECDEF. Either a typo or you know something the rest of us don't. Basic research and fact checking sunshine.
 
M

Massive

Well-Known Member
Gates Gets Out the Knife: A Quick Look

Richard Gates.

Cancelled for the US military but used by other countries.

Air 6500 Phase 2 is going to be very interesting.

The whole Plan Jericho is a huge step forward for the ADF - and integrates all of the great leaps forward in capability we have seen in recent years - F-35, AWD, Wedgetail etc

Very impressive.

Regards,

Massive
 
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M

MARKMILES77

Active Member
Australian and New Zealand defender magazine reporting that the Australian Army has undertaken it's first firings of the SMART 155 anti armour artillery rounds at Shoalwater bay this week.
They have also been firing rounds with M1156 Precision Guidance Kits attached, so deliveries of these must have occured.
Presumably the PGKs will also be usable on the new Assegai rounds when they are delivered, which will give a long range precision capability for a fraction of the cost of Excalibur rounds.


(Article is behind a paywall)
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
MARKMILES77 said:
Australian and New Zealand defender magazine reporting that the Australian Army has undertaken it's first firings of the SMART 155 anti armour artillery rounds at Shoalwater bay this week.
They have also been firing rounds with M1156 Precision Guidance Kits attached, so deliveries of these must have occured.
Presumably the PGKs will also be usable on the new Assegai rounds when they are delivered, which will give a long range precision capability for a fraction of the cost of Excalibur rounds.


(Article is behind a paywall)
Click to expand...
Even though the article is behind a paywall, still post the link because it satisfies IP and citing requirements.
 
M

MARKMILES77

Active Member
MARKMILES77 said:
Australian and New Zealand defender magazine reporting that the Australian Army has undertaken it's first firings of the SMART 155 anti armour artillery rounds at Shoalwater bay this week.
They have also been firing rounds with M1156 Precision Guidance Kits attached, so deliveries of these must have occured.
Presumably the PGKs will also be usable on the new Assegai rounds when they are delivered, which will give a long range precision capability for a fraction of the cost of Excalibur rounds.


(Article is behind a paywall)
Click to expand...
Australian & NZ Defender - Australia's Leading Defence News
 
S

Stampede

Well-Known Member
In the latest Defence Technological Review their are a number of good articles relating to ARMY
This one regarding Land 4000 Phase two shows how quickly time goes by with the introduction of the first boxers to Army expected within one year..

Defence Technology Review : DTR APR 2019, Page 1

I trust the Australian manufacturing goes as planned.
Also further information relating to Land 400 Phase 3 in the latest edition.

Regards S
 
P

PeterM

Active Member
ngatimozart said:
Article detailing what Airbus, Bell, and Leonardo are offering for the SOF light helo RFI.

Airbus: H145M.

Bell: Bell 407 and Bell 429 (also has wheeled variant).

Leonardo: AW109 Trekker, AW159, and AW169M.

One criteria is that four of these must be able to fit into a C-17A at the same time.
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The AW159 is particularly interesting as an option imho (though it is likely at the upper end of the possible options). Given the Wildcat has been operational with the British Army since 2014, it will be known entity/capability which will reduce risk/unknowns. We can leverage their experience with their Wildcat and provide an opportunity for future collaboration.

The Wildcat AH1 is a battlefield reconnaissance helo, which I expect aligns with SOF requirements.
“The helicopter should be capable of being fitted with simple, proven, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) equipment and weapons systems,”

The Wildcat experience with the Royal and South Korean navies will be beneficial as I expect the SOF light helos will operate from the LHDs. (Both the British Army and Royal Navy variants have marinised airframes)
 
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