Argentine navy future

[kilo]

i think the argentine navy needs to buy a carrier this one looks good

http://www.shiplink.info/contents1.asp?refno=3893

they Definitely need more EXOCETS!! they might have defeated britain if they had had more than five!! other than that they are reported to be modifying their type 42s with enlarged helicopter deck+he\anger.

 

[Big-E]

i think the argentine navy needs to buy a carrier this one looks good

http://www.shiplink.info/contents1.asp?refno=3893

they Definitely need more EXOCETS!! they might have defeated britain if they had had more than five!! other than that they are reported to be modifying their type 42s with enlarged helicopter deck+he\anger.

It would have been nice if that link had a photo. I don't think a 15,000 ton ship is big enough for CATOBAR operations and they sure can't afford STOVL. What the Argies need is better land based aircraft with enough range for operations over the Falklands. Getting a carrier would only waste assets needed to protect her.

 

[Gladius]

Kilo, that aircraft carrier was the Colossus class vessel, Minas Gerais. The ship was replazed by the Sao Paulo (ex-Foch). In the other hand would be impossible its acquisition by Argentina, given that was scrapped two years ago.

 

[swerve]

Why do you think Argentina needs a carrier? What do you think the Argentinean navy could use it for?

The question of the one in the link has been dealt with, but if Argentina was to get a carrier, you have to consider a few things. What planes could be flown off it? There are no longer any new-built fighters capable of flying off small carriers, now the Harrier is out of production. The F-35B won't be available for several years (probably 10), & Argentina may not be allowed to buy it. Current new aircraft options are MiG-29K*, Rafale, F-18E or Su-33*. All require a fair-sized ship. Possible future options are the Tejas* - if India actually gets it into service - or put up the money for development of a naval Gripen. Ot it might be possible to buy some second hand F-18.

The only second-hand carrier which might be available soon is HMS Invincible. Somehow, I don't see her being sold to Argentina. Any other country, maybe. And anyway, she's STOVL-only, & there aren't any STOVL fighters for sale at the moment. Other carriers in service are likely to be run on until they're scrapped. So it's a new ship. Can Argentina afford that?

*Not equipped for catapult T/O - STOBAR only - though it might be possible to modify them.

 

[Sea Toby]

Outside oil rich Venezuela, none of the Latin American navies can buy new frigates, much less aircraft carriers. Currently buying a few new submarines swallows their acquisition budgets. When the World Bank was generous with its loans back during the 1970s many of the Latin American navies were able to buy new frigates, but it appears that time has past.

Peru, Chile, and Brazil have recently bought used frigates to replace older ones. It won't be long before Argentina will have to do the same. Unfortunately used submarines aren't available, submarines will have to be bought new.

 

[contedicavour]

Argentina's budget doesn't allow for any new ships.
The most recent acquisitions are ex French Ouragan LPDHs (1960s vintage) and one Durance AOR also from France.
There are plans for acquisition of 4 lightly armed OPVs, and potentially there is a plan to complete the 3rd and 4th SSKs that have been building for 15 years now. That's it.
The T42s aren't DDGs anymore, since Sea Dart isn't functioning. One ship is mothballed, the other is a bizarre sort of DDH. The MEK0-360 need modernization, the 6th MEKO-140 has been building for 15+ years...
Not to mention the 3 obsolete A69 corvettes.

This navy needs money just to survive and keep its ships operational, never mind a carrier :lol2

Besides, beyond the navy, the air force hasn't had a new jet for ages. They are still operating obsolete Mirage III/5s and Kfirs and A4s. No BVR missiles, and the only ASMs are half a dozen Exocets from 6 Super Etendards...

cheers

 

[icelord]

There are no longer any new-built fighters capable of flying off small carriers, now the Harrier is out of production.

O the Irony, seeing as the Falklins was a coming of age thing for the harrier, showing how it could be used effectively to protect against land based air craft, although it did fail on one occasion....

I'm gunna go with everyone else on this one
Why would the Argentine navy need a carrier, they don't deploy around the world, can't really afford to sustain such a venture, has there been any recent contriubution of Argentine forces, where a air defence shield is needed?

 

[tatra]

Argentina's budget doesn't allow for any new ships.
The most recent acquisitions are ex French Ouragan LPDHs (1960s vintage) and one Durance AOR also from France.
There are plans for acquisition of 4 lightly armed OPVs, and potentially there is a plan to complete the 3rd and 4th SSKs that have been building for 15 years now. That's it.
The T42s aren't DDGs anymore, since Sea Dart isn't functioning. One ship is mothballed, the other is a bizarre sort of DDH. The MEK0-360 need modernization, the 6th MEKO-140 has been building for 15+ years...
Not to mention the 3 obsolete A69 corvettes.

This navy needs money just to survive and keep its ships operational, never mind a carrier :lol2

Besides, beyond the navy, the air force hasn't had a new jet for ages. They are still operating obsolete Mirage III/5s and Kfirs and A4s. No BVR missiles, and the only ASMs are half a dozen Exocets from 6 Super Etendards...

cheers

If those 3 A69 are so useless, please explain why the Turkish navy - operator of Meko 200 and a bunch of OHP - was perfectly happy not too long ago to take 6 off the French navy's hands (originally commissioned 1974 - 1977 with MN recommissioned TN 2001- 2003). And the Argentinian A69s, the oldest dating from 1978 - appear to have a more modern weapons fit than those of the TN. Besides, similarly aged ex-US ships are also still being used by navies such as those of Brazil (Brooke/Garcia), Taiwan/Egypt/Turkey (Knox). Age doesn't necessarily mean useless.

Yes, the Meko 360 could use modernization esp. since Argentinia was one of the launch customers of the whole line of MEKOs. Then again, compared to the neighboring navies and real threats, the need is not that immediate.

As for the Meko 160s, the sixth is built but has not completed fitting out due to lack of dineros.

Subs: Santa Cruz class (TR 1700) > 2 German-built boats in service; two additional boats being built in Argentina will not be completed, and equipment procured for the 5th and 6th units of the class has been used for spares.
Salta Type 209/1200 > German-built coastal submarine, survivor of two. Completely overhauled and rebuilt starting 1988 and completing 1996. Her sister San Luis started a major overhaul in 1991 but the work was cancelled and the ship was discarded.

 

[contedicavour]

If those 3 A69 are so useless, please explain why the Turkish navy - operator of Meko 200 and a bunch of OHP - was perfectly happy not too long ago to take 6 off the French navy's hands (originally commissioned 1974 - 1977 with MN recommissioned TN 2001- 2003). And the Argentinian A69s, the oldest dating from 1978 - appear to have a more modern weapons fit than those of the TN. Besides, similarly aged ex-US ships are also still being used by navies such as those of Brazil (Brooke/Garcia), Taiwan/Egypt/Turkey (Knox). Age doesn't necessarily mean useless.

Yes, the Meko 360 could use modernization esp. since Argentinia was one of the launch customers of the whole line of MEKOs. Then again, compared to the neighboring navies and real threats, the need is not that immediate.

As for the Meko 160s, the sixth is built but has not completed fitting out due to lack of dineros.

Subs: Santa Cruz class (TR 1700) > 2 German-built boats in service; two additional boats being built in Argentina will not be completed, and equipment procured for the 5th and 6th units of the class has been used for spares.
Salta Type 209/1200 > German-built coastal submarine, survivor of two. Completely overhauled and rebuilt starting 1988 and completing 1996. Her sister San Luis started a major overhaul in 1991 but the work was cancelled and the ship was discarded.

The A69s are coastal corvettes with originally ASW focus (but no helo)... that's why Turkey was happy to take second hand ships from France until MILGEMs are available.
Now think of Argentina : they need big oceangoing ships with serious ASW capabilities (hull sonar and mortars instead of VDS and helo doesn't qualify as serious to me).
The Santa Cruz n° 3 and 4 have seen some work on them lately and there are now strong rumours that they might be completed, though it could be for export.

cheers

 

[Gladius]

Ummm, no exactly.

The S-43 and S-44 have been serving as source of spares (like the equippement procured for the finaly cancelled S-45 & S-46) for the Santa Cruz and the San Juan during the last sixteen years. The Santa Fé came to be completed near to 70% although without his hull sections welded, remaining in that state all these years like his brother Santiago del Estero completed to 40-50% aswell. The plans to finalize the Santa Fé (The completion of the Santago del Estero is discarded) derive from the cost of termination that is lower than the cost of acquisition of a new build submarine, and to the logistic commonality with its brothers TR-1700 once entered in service, nevertheless this is not alone a matter of the price of construction to complete it, but one of the price for works of rehabilitation that should receive in the sections already built owed to the deterioration caused by the passing of time and the weather and environmental conditions suffered without barely receiving maintenance during many years.

http://www.saorbats.com.ar/articulos/06ARA_DOmeq/Img_3405.jpg
http://www.saorbats.com.ar/articulos/06ARA_DOmeq/Img_3400.jpg

The reopening of the Domecq-Garcia shipyard is a push for the plans of the Argentine Navy and its desire to finalize the Santa Fé and/or to submit the retired San Luís (SSK Type 209/1200) to a overhaul similar to the applied to his twin S-31 Salta.

At the moment the only sure is the overhaul programed for the S-42 San Juan (16 Mill US$) to be started this month (September 2006).

Edited: Corrected the name of S-44 "Santiago del Estero".

 

[kams]

A request, when we discuss Latin american / East Asian armed forces, could the thread starter include a small summary of threat perception. It really helps in understanding the requirements for the defence of the country. Thanks.

 

[contedicavour]

A request, when we discuss Latin american / East Asian armed forces, could the thread starter include a small summary of threat perception. It really helps in understanding the requirements for the defence of the country. Thanks.

Threat perception ? Nobody would ever think of attacking Argetina... unless Argentina itself is planning on invading again the Falklands (btw the peronist/ populist government is again claiming loud that the islands are theirs...).
All other neighboring countries are run by friendly governments with signficant trade ties (Mercosur for ex).

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

Most of the borders in Latin America are sound politically. However, insurgents do tend to cross the borders easily. Argentina and Chile have from time to time contested over the Southern tip of South America in the Patagonia region. The last time the Pope favored Chile in the dispute. Many of the borders, similar to the rest of the world, use mountain ranges and rivers.

When you look at the big picture, Brazil is a large nation in size and in population compared to the others. Uruaguay is similar in population to New Zealand, at most 4 million compared to Brazil's population of 151 million, the second largest christian nation per population in the world. Argentina's population is 38 million, Chile's is 16 million, Peru's is 28 million, Columbia's is 45 million, and Venezuela's is 27 million. Obviously, Brazil is the big grizzly bear of South America.

South America has enough natural disasters to keep their armed forces busy, from earthquakes to floods. What bothers me is their political corruption and education weaknesses, these countries have plenty of natural resources to overcome their poverty.

 

[tatra]

Threat perception ? Nobody would ever think of attacking Argetina... unless Argentina itself is planning on invading again the Falklands (btw the peronist/ populist government is again claiming loud that the islands are theirs...).
All other neighboring countries are run by friendly governments with signficant trade ties (Mercosur for ex).

cheers

Argentina continues to assert its claims to the UK-administered Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) and South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands in its constitution, forcibly occupying the Falklands in 1982, but in 1995 agreed no longer to seek settlement by force; territorial claim in Antarctica partially overlaps UK and Chilean claims (see Antarctic disputes); unruly region at convergence of Argentina-Brazil-Paraguay borders is locus of money laundering, smuggling, arms and illegal narcotics trafficking, and fundraising for extremist organizations; uncontested dispute between Brazil and Uruguay over Braziliera Island in the Quarai/Cuareim River leaves the tripoint with Argentina in question; action by the joint boundary commission, established by Chile and Argentina in 2001, for mapping and demarcating the disputed boundary in the Andean Southern Ice Field (Campo de Hielo Sur) remains pending

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ar.html#Issues

 

[tatra]

The A69s are coastal corvettes with originally ASW focus (but no helo)...

The principal vocation of standard sloop A 69 is the anti-submarine fight in coastal water. It ensures moreover certain missions, such as:
- support for the strategic underwater forces
- monitoring of the maritime approaches
- public utility (rescue, police force of the seas)
- instruction with the sea
- deployment overseas
http://www.acoram.com/avisoducuing.htm

Although not intended for deep-water ASW operations, the A-69s are used for overseas patrols with two or three of the French ships usually stationed in the Pacific.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/d-orves.htm

 

[fylr71]

If the Argentines or any country had the money I think they would love to operate an aircraft carrier. The most practical for the Argentines is to purchase second hand frigates with helicopter capability such as the OHP class. Also the airforce is in DESPERATE need of new planes. Their best bet would be to purchase second hand F-16s or F-18s. With its long coastline Argentina wouold be wise to invest in more second hand P-3C, Atlantique, or CN-235 for off-shore patrols. Also, with regard to the other militaries in South America, Brazil and especially Chile both possess militaries of modest strength
Chilean Navy Brazil
2 Jacob Van Heemskerck Frigates
2 Karel Doorman Frigates
3 Type 23 Duke class frigates
1 Type 22 Broadsword class frigate
2 Type 209 Submarines
2 Scorpene class Submarines
5 AS532SC Cougar helicopters
3 P-3A Orions
5 Dauphin Helicopters
Chilean Army (Modern Equipment)
250 Leopard 1
118 Leopard 2A4
400 Mowag Piranha
Chilean Air Force
10 F-16 Block 50
18 F-16 Block 15(From The Netherlands)
37 Mirage III/V/50
18 F-5 E/F
1 IAI Phalcon
6 P-3C Orion
15 Eurocopter Panther Attack Helicopters
Argentine Navy
4 MEKO 360 Destroyers
6 MEKO 140 Frigates
3 D'Estienne d'Orves Frigates
1 Type 209 Submarines
2 Santa Cruz class Submarines
6 Super Etandards
5 S-2T Trackers
4 P-3B Orions
5 ASH-3H Sea King ASW Helicopters
2 Eurocopter Dauphin
Argentine Air Force
20 Mirage III/V
19 Dagger/Nesher
35 A-4 Skyhawks
29 IA-58A Pucaras
9 Bell UH-1H Attack Helicopters
4 Agusta A109 Attack Helicopters
Argentine Army (Modern Equipment)
650 TAM (All Varients)
34 Mowag Piranha
50 AMX 13 Patagon Light Tanks
Brazilian Navy
1 Foch class Aircraft Carrier
3 Type 22 Broadsword Frigates
6 Niteroi Class Frigates
4 Tupi Class Submarines (German Type 209)
1 Tikuna (Modified Tupi) Class Submarine
1 Newport Class LST
2 Thomaston Class LSD
26 A-4 Skyhawks
19 SH-3 Sea King ASW Helicopters
13 Lynx ASW Helicopters
9 P-3A/B
Brazilian Air Force
12 Mirage 2000
45 F-5E/F
33 AMX
8 EMB 145 AEW&C
76 AT-29 Super Tucano
83 AT-27 Tucano

Brazil has plans to purchase either F-16, Mirage 2000, JAS-39, or SU-35 the project is on hold because the Brazilian government says it needs the money elsewhere.

Brazilian Army (Modern Equipment)
200 Leopard 1
91 M60A3
EE-11 Urutu
EE-9 Cascavel
16 ASTROS MLRS

Chile clearly has the most modern military in Latin America.

 

[JBodnar39]

Here's the balance of forces I have for Brazil, Chile, and Argentina:

Any other input?

BRAZIL
Navy - 1 Carrier with 6 A-4's active
3 T22 FF
6 Niteroi FF
4 Inhuman FF
4 T209/Tupi SS
8 Sea King ASW, 5 Cougar ASW, 2 Cougar SAR, 13 Sea Lynx,
10 Fennec ASW, 9 Fennec OH
12 P-3 ordered (2 delivered and 4 will be used as spares)

Air Force - 36 F-5E - 3 Sqds
45 A-1A/11B - 1 Recon Sqd, 1 Attack Sqd, 1 ASuW Sqd
10 Mirage 2000A/2B - Being delivered to replace MIII
5 A-27/1 T-27 - COIN Sqd
8 A-29 - 2 COIN Sqds
5 EMB-145 AEW
3 KC-137, 2 KC-130
19 C-130 (Possibly only 10 are active)

Air Force/Army Helos - 24 UH-1H II, 20 UH-1H, 6 Cougar, 8 Cougar SAR,
2 Cougar VIP, 31 Fennec AH/Oh (22 Active),
46 Fennec OH




ARGENTINA

Navy - 1 T42 DD (Still in service?)
10 MEKO FF
3 A69 FF
2 T209 SS
3 Sea King ASW, 4 Fennec/5 Alouette III ASW/OH
4 S-61D/6 UH-1H - SAR

Air Force - 12 MB326 (5 Active) - COIN Sqd
11 Super Etendard (# active?)
14 Dagger A/3B/6 Mirage 5P - 1 Sqd
10 Mirage IIIE - 1 Sqd
30 A-4R (21 active) - 2 Sqds
18 Pucara - 2 Sqds
4 P-3, 5 S-2
1 KC-130
10 C-130, 9 F-27, 3 G222

Air Force/Army - 8 UH-1H/4 B212 SAR
1 CH-47, 2 UN-1N, 5 A109 AH/OH, 3 Cougar, 1 B212,
29 UH-1H



CHILE

Navy - 1 T22 FF
3 T23 FF
2 Jacob Van Heemskerck FF
2 Karel Doorman FF
3 SAAR4 MB, 4 T148/Tiger MB
2 Scorpene SS, 2 T209 SS
4 Cougar ASW, 5 Bo105/6 B206 OH

Air Force - 12 Mirage 50CN/1CH/1DC - Being replaced by 11 F-16AM/7BM
8 F-16C/4D Blk 50
15 F-5E/3F - 1 Sqd
16 A-36/10 T-36 (20 operational) - OCU/COIN Sqd
1 B707 AEW
1 B707 Tanker
4 P-3, 6 C-130, 3 CN235

Air Force/Army - 8 Puma, 2 Cougar, 9 UH-1H, 5 B412, 3 Fennec OH,
3 B206 OH, 22 Oh-6

 

[swerve]

Brazil has plans to purchase either F-16, Mirage 2000, JAS-39, or SU-35 the project is on hold because the Brazilian government says it needs the money elsewhere.

A bit out of date. The proposed purchase of new fighters has been put on hold, yes, and as a result the shortlist has been scrapped. Mirage 2000 is no longer an option, but Rafale now is. Other types may also be considered when the project is revived.

 

[Gollevainen]

Seems like every time some one starts a topic about south american navyes, there are always those who comes to question the need of strong navyes of these countryes...usually with arguments that in face of modern opponents (those at the top of the food chain in naval ranking) their forces are outdated and single carrier seems so obscure....
But we have to remember that 99% south american navyes have been mented against each others and particulary in the penis contest between Chile, argentina, Peru and Brazil. In the past, campaing between Chile and Argentine, the single argentinian carrier would have had huge impact to the outcome of that imaginary conflict. I Havent followed that closely the politics of that continent recently, But I could imagine that the rivaly isent all forgotten.
So if thinking of these forces futures, dont bother to compare those vessels capapilityes against the most potent equalents in the world but against what the other martime forces in the continent have...

So why would Argentian need carrier? To become par whit Brazil or eventually take back the number one postion in the contignents naval forces. There are still few Super Etendards flyable and maintannace would perhaps come to the question if there would be a carrier (lets put the monetary issue way for while) and I think now as MN is retiring the type, a surplus migth come aviable. Against the local opponents, Exocet armed Etendard is still leathal weapon and refurbished it would have good decade or so service time left. Also, thogth the late 25 De Mayo was long time hulked before its last decommision, I believe that there is still skilled naval aviators left (they practiced onboard Brazilian carrier few years back) and keeping the 'shop' in town would essentially need new carrier hull.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I wonder if this thread was started with the author thinking about a potential conflict against the UK over the Falklands.

I personally cannot see the need for an aircraft carrier, especially because Argentina cannot afford one with the necessary aircraft. A potential war with neighbours wouldn't require an aircraft carrier, because of the geography. Also even if it could get a carrier, where will the money for necessary escorts come from? If it can't be defended, it's a waste of valuable resources.

A war with the United Kingdom would be generally a very bad idea. This time we've got Tomohawks (which can be launched from submarines), hugely advanced destroyers on the way, better point-defence systems on our escorts, etc, etc.