Another new fighter jet for Korea

[Falstaff]

Just read this one on defense-aerospace.com:

Korea to Buy 20 Foreign Fighter Jets Next Year

(Source: Korea Overseas Information Service; dated Jan. 18, web-posted Jan. 17, 2007)

Having ordered 40 Boeing F-15Ks, South Korea has now confirmed plans to order 20 new multi-rôle fighters in 2008. Korea has decided to choose a foreign contractor through open bidding to supply 20 "next-generation" fighter jets in the coming years, a project to cost around 2.3 trillion won ($2.4 billion), defense officials said Wednesday (Jan. 17).

The project follows Seoul's contract with the U.S. company Boeing Co. in 2002 to buy 40 F-15K jets for $4.6 billion. Eighteen jets have been delivered so far, with the remainder to be introduced by next year.

"We plan to draw up a detailed plan for the procurement project next month and distribute the proposal in March, with the aim of signing a contract by February next year," said Major General Kim Deuk-hwan, director-general for aircraft programs at the Defense Acquisition Program Administration.

The decision was made at a defense procurement project committee meeting presided over by Defense Minister Kim Jang-soo at the Defense Ministry building in central Seoul.

Korea has pushed for the purchase of 120 next-generation fighter jets as part of its blueprint for overhauling the military's structure and drastically increasing combat capability by 2020.

"It is a plan to secure 20 highly efficient multipurpose fighter jets to actively counter threats by neighboring countries under the National Defense Reform 2020 project," Kim said. "We will introduce the aircraft between 2010 and 2012."

He indicated that Lockheed Martin's F-35 model will be ruled out, saying the Air Force needs double-engine fighters.

"There are a lot of differences between the single-engine F-35 and what our military needs, including weapons capacity and flight scope," Kim said.

Korean officials expect the introduction of a foreign model to help the country learn the core technology needed for the designing and manufacturing of advanced aircraft, as well as contributing to the development of the domestic aerospace industry and the creation of jobs.

In 2002, Seoul chose Boeing's F-15K, probably in consideration of the long-standing military alliance with the United States, giving a new lifeline to Boeing's then-sputtering F-15 production line in Missouri. The French-built fighter Rafale reportedly beat the F-15K by a narrow margin in the technical phase of evaluation. Two other fighters, the Russian Sukhoi Su-35 and the Typhoon from European consortium Eurofighter, also joined in the competition.

-ends-

Interesting, ain't it? I think one can imagine who the contenders will be: Another chance for Eurofighter, Rafale and Flanker. I wonder if the Americans step in with the Super Hornet or another Eagle-variant. If they don't, perhaps this competition will not end with a political pressure driven outcome. I wonder who'll win? As far as I can remember the Typhoon was kicked out because of the still lacking swing-role-capability (or was that the competition in singapore... confusion...).

What do you guys think?

 

[Waylander]

Anything else than additonal F-15K might be very uneconomic.
A totally new chain of supply for just 20 additonal fighters?
Not very cheap.

 

[Falstaff]

True... But I remember that when the decision in favor of the F-15K was made public there were rumours that not everybody in the korean air force was happy with that decision and that there would soon be another competition. Perhaps somebody read that too and can verify it?
And I think it could be beneficial for them to acquire a fighterplane whose development is still not finished. As I understand that press release, they are keen on technology transfer and co-development, which both dassault and eurofighter offered along with generous industry offsets.
And perhaps they want to diversify their supply structure instead of relying only on american products.

 

[Tasman]

Anything else than additonal F-15K might be very uneconomic.
A totally new chain of supply for just 20 additonal fighters?
Not very cheap.

Yes 20 would be uneconomic. Perhaps this would be an initial purchase ahead of a further 60 to bring the number of 'next-generation' aircraft (including the F15Ks) up to the 120 mentioned.

The statements about the need for two engines are interesting in comparison to countries like Australia who are looking to move away from a twin engined (Hornet) to a single engined fighter (F35).

It will be interesting to see if the Super Hornet is considered.

To me, the ideal aircraft for South Korea would be the F22 but, as mentioned in other threads, it is unlikely the US would sell it.

 

[Magoo]

It'll more than likely be more F-15Ks or possibly F-16s which they also currently operate. It's just that the Koreans tender out even follow-on orders.

Cheers

Magoo

 

[swerve]

It'll more than likely be more F-15Ks or possibly F-16s which they also currently operate. It's just that the Koreans tender out even follow-on orders.

Cheers

Magoo

What, twin-engined F-16s?

 

[rjmaz1]

F-15K is nearly certain to fill this tender. Any other aircraft would have many negative aspects.

They will most likely buy F-15's to thethe APG-63(v)3 AESA radar like the Singapore aircraft. This would provide Korea a significant increase over their current F-15's. Even if all other performance aspects are the same having 50% greater radar coverage will make the aircraft much better.

Also the USAF has successfully combined AESA equiped F-15's with older F-15 versions to give the older aircraft greater situational awareness.

It would also be highly likely that the improved thrust F110-GE-132 engine could be added. This engine with its greater dry thrust would definitely increase cruising speeds by 5-10% over the F110-GE-129 aircraft, or much greater engine life at current thrust levels.

 

[Tasman]

F-15K is nearly certain to fill this tender. Any other aircraft would have many negative aspects.

They will most likely buy F-15's to thethe APG-63(v)3 AESA radar like the Singapore aircraft. This would provide Korea a significant increase over their current F-15's. Even if all other performance aspects are the same having 50% greater radar coverage will make the aircraft much better.

Also the USAF has successfully combined AESA equiped F-15's with older F-15 versions to give the older aircraft greater situational awareness.

It would also be highly likely that the improved thrust F110-GE-132 engine could be added. This engine with its greater dry thrust would definitely increase cruising speeds by 5-10% over the F110-GE-129 aircraft, or much greater engine life at current thrust levels.

An all F15K purchase to meet the target of 120 'next-generation' fighters would certainly make a lot of sense. There is economy in buying 120 aircraft of the same type and IMO it would provide South Korea with a highly potent force.

Cheers

 

[Falstaff]

Here's another article about the topic with additional readings given at the end, quite good I think:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ter-buy-phase-2-the-race-is-on/index.php#more

Quote:
While the F-15K's incumbent status would normally be a significant advantage, a November 1, 2006 KOIS article discusses a growing sentiment within Korea to diversify their defense sources. Dassault's Rafale is the most obvious candidate - it reportedly beat the F-15K by narrow margins in the F-X's Phase 1 technical evaluation, and a Korean export order would be a major boon to the program as it continues to seek other orders from countries like India. The aircraft is a contender and known quantity, but Rafale's narrow range of integrated weapons to date and complete lack of export orders (most recent loss: Norway) create an uncertain future for upgrades and additional investments. This is a major issue given the Korean F-X 2 fleet's likely 20-30 year service life. Revealed corruption scandals, a promise never to do business in South Korea again, and corporate legal action against the government haven't removed the Rafale from consideration, but they probably didn't do much to help Dassault's future prospects.

EADS/BAE's Eurofighter is acquiring more multi-role capabilities, and despite export setbacks its overall production and investment picture is good. The fighter is competing for additional orders in Norway, Denmark, and India, and offers a very strong air superiority choice with growing secondary attack capabilities.

It also offers a large and growing set of weapons options from American and European sources, and a crowded but proven national work-sharing structure.

Sukhoi's "SU-35" is the SU-27M, possibly with some additional upgrades. These aircraft have good range, large weapon loads, and performance that exceeds the ROKAF's F-15Ks in a number of areas. To date, however, only 14 have been produced as testbeds. The Sukhoi's avionics set will create significant difficulties for weapons integration with Korea's overwhelmingly US weapons, but Sukhoi will choose its own entry if it participates and may decide to go with a variant of India's SU-30MKI instead. This is arguably a more advanced aircraft than the SU-35, with thrust-vectoring capabilities and a mix of French/Israeli/indigenous avionics that could make integration of non-Russian weapons easier.

end quote

 

[LancerMc]

One of my professor's at my university is from South Korea, and he said a few weeks ago that the SKAF would be purchasing further F-15K's. He served in the army and still has family that serve in the South Korean military.

Waylander is also correct that it would be uneconomical for the SKAF to buy only 20 new fighters of a different type. A purchase of 60 of type and an additional 20 F-15K's would bring them to the 120 planes their looking for.

 

[vivtho]

Looking at the contenders for the competition:
Rafale: The Rafale is an exceptionally potent airframe+systems combination. For an air force starting from a clean sheet it is a logical way to go, providing good performance with plenty of room for future growth. However, in the Korean context the Rafale will face several challenges. The aircraft as such is unproven in the international market. With only the French AF as the customer, the cost per unit aircraft is also on the higher side. Also, the Rafale is optimized for the new generation French weapons and AFAIK has never been operated with the US weapons, which currently form the bulk of Korean weapon stocks. As I see it, the only chance for the Rafale to win this tender would be for the French to give a substantial part of the manufacture of the aircraft to the Koreans, or even a license to build them themselves. This however, is not likely to happen, as the number of aircraft is too small.

Eurofighter: With a larger existing user base and compatibility with Korean weapons, the Eurofighter is more likely to be the winner than the Rafale. However (as with the Rafale as well), unless Korea specifically wants to lessen their dependence on American sources of weapons, it would not be cost effective for them to purchase the Eurofighter.

F-15K: IMHO This is by far the most likely winner of the tender. The Korean AF already operates them and (at least on the surface) fulfills all the conditions of the tender, while also being cost effective.

F/A-18E/F: While the Hornet does not offer many additional capabilities over existing Korean aircraft, it might well be the dark horse of this race. It's avionics are amongst the most advanced of the contenders and the koreans are sure to like the ability to order at least some of the aircraft in the EA-18 Growler configuration. It also makes a nice 'big brother' to the T-50 Golden Eagle. (Does anybody here know to what extent the F404 on the T-50 and the F414 on the F/A-18E are common?).

Su-27m/Su-30MKI: The only parameter on which the Sukhois would better the western competition would be on unit price, with the Su-30MKI coming in the $40 - 50 million range. In every other respect, the Sukhoi would involve additional expenses and effort on the part of the Koreans in order to integrate them into the Air Force.

If the Korean AF opens up the contest to single-engine fighters, then I'd give the F-16 the best odds for winning as it is already in service and (if I'm not mistaken) is assembled in Korea.
The Gripen is also a nice little aircraft, very capable for it's size and easy on the pocket. As a plus point it uses the same engine as the T-50 and also uses identical weapons as the F-15K and the F-16 already in service.

Just my $0.02.

 

[Das Kardinal]

The Koreans want two engines, so no Gripen for them.
This leaves the usual suspects, F15K, Super Hornet, Typhoon, SU-number-of-the-day, and Rafale.
Everything I read on French forums seems to tell Dassault really, really was pi$$ed at the F-X outcome, and they aren't eager at all to go there again. Which is understanable : if the Koreans really don't want (or can't for political reasons) to buy a non American plane, they shouldn't waste people's time... buy some additional F15Ks and be done with it.

 

[Ths]

I don't quite understand the 2 engine must.
I should have thought - with a view to the other Korea - that what South Korea wanted was a lot of cheapish fighters FAST.

But it might be that they are looking to something that will keep the Chinese from continuing down the peninsula when they have dealt with Kim Il Jong.

 

[Tasman]

I don't quite understand the 2 engine must.
I should have thought - with a view to the other Korea - that what South Korea wanted was a lot of cheapish fighters FAST.

But it might be that they are looking to something that will keep the Chinese from continuing down the peninsula when they have dealt with Kim Il Jong.

South Korea currently has a mix of twin and single engined aircraft (including 8 squadrons F16C/Ds) and has them in comparatively large numbers. At present, according to the link below, the RoKAF includes:

3 sqdns F4E
2 sqdns F4D
8 sqdns F16C/D
10 sdns F5E/F
2 sqdns F5A/B converting to F15K plus a third sdn forming on this aircraft
2 sqdns A37B
1 sqdn RF4C
1 sqdn RF5A

Plus training squadrons.

http://www.scramble.nl/kr.htm

I imagine the 120 next generation aircraft will replace older twin engined aircraft. Whilst present plans call for a twin it seems to me that at the end of this program there will be opportunities for a single to replace at least some of the F5s. IMO, replacing them all with twins would be far too expensive, and like Ths, I don't see it as being necessary.

Cheers

 

[icelord]

My first thought was a gripen, but the two enigines i agree rules it out. i would think the gripen would have an interesting mix, in the way of close air support and covering the border. would it work as an interecptor for Korea in engaging NKAF "straying" into the south.

 

[rjmaz1]

South Korea already has alot of low end aircraft, so the next purchase will definitely be high end aircraft.

F-4's and F-5's are old school technology.

They also have alot of F-16's pretty good mid-class fighter.

They didn't have any high end aircraft to strike deep into enemy territory. Thats what the F-15K's were ordered for. They still need more high end aircraft so more F-15K's are definitely the most likely option.

 

[swerve]

My first thought was a gripen, but the two enigines i agree rules it out. i would think the gripen would have an interesting mix, in the way of close air support and covering the border. would it work as an interecptor for Korea in engaging NKAF "straying" into the south.

Gripens too close in size (the same!) & performance to the prospective F-50 development of the T-50 for S. Korea to buy it. Rather put the money into their own industry. For close air support, I think they already intend to buy A-50 variants.

 

[Ths]

Let se where the discussion brings us so far:

1. CAS and battlefield interdiction is pretty much covered with existing inventory.

2. As North Korea hardly is a problem air defence wise - the fire support is achieved through massive artillery.

3. The need must be for deep strike. This may be nuclear launchers, but not nesseraily.

In all cases this must give the Chinese pause for thought, as any attempt on their side to support North Korea in a war will be met with vigorious opposition and great losses to a Chinese intervention - by aircraft that aren't easy top shoot down.
Only problem by that is that it will give the Chinese an excuse to stop doing something about North Korea. Thus it gives pressure on China to start getting the North Koreans to give in, as that could prevent these F-15's from being bought, thus eliminate a potential threat to China when North Korea falls apart.

A bit of a round about argument; but I think it will hold: China: "If you don't do something about the North Korean problem, we will - and that problem will persist after the lost cause of North Korea is settled - one way or the other."

 

[swerve]

Let se where the discussion brings us so far:

1. CAS and battlefield interdiction is pretty much covered with existing inventory.

2. As North Korea hardly is a problem air defence wise - the fire support is achieved through massive artillery.

3. The need must be for deep strike. This may be nuclear launchers, but not nesseraily.

In all cases this must give the Chinese pause for thought, as any attempt on their side to support North Korea in a war will be met with vigorious opposition and great losses to a Chinese intervention - by aircraft that aren't easy top shoot down.
Only problem by that is that it will give the Chinese an excuse to stop doing something about North Korea. Thus it gives pressure on China to start getting the North Koreans to give in, as that could prevent these F-15's from being bought, thus eliminate a potential threat to China when North Korea falls apart.

A bit of a round about argument; but I think it will hold: China: "If you don't do something about the North Korean problem, we will - and that problem will persist after the lost cause of North Korea is settled - one way or the other."

Possible . . . but I can't see China supporting N. Korea in a war in any case. S. Korea is a valuable trading partner for China, N. Korea is a liability. OK, they enjoy watching Kim Jong Il shake up the US, & they like not having a border with S. Korea, but I don't think either of those is worth the financial & other costs to them.

China is probably unsure what to do about N. Korea. They don't want it to collapse (nightmare scenario!), they don't want it to go to war (other nightmare scenario!), but short of pulling the plug, & thus triggering one of their own worst nightmares, they don't really have any leverage. Kim knows that, & exploits it. They subsidise him because they feel they have to, not because they like him.

The optimum situation for China would probably be a friendly, lightly armed, united Korea, with no formal alliances, no US troops, & a relaxed attitude to the few million ethnic Koreans across the border. But they don't see any way to get there.

 

[Ths]

Swerve: I agree very much with You; but the South Koreans can be excused for not betting the farm of Chinese benevolence!

The wortst part of it from a Chinese perspective: The longer Kim Juong Il and his ilk rules North Korea the worse their scenarios get!

Who is it going to disturb the most with a North Korea with nuclear arms: The USA or China (in the direct line of fire)? We sort of know how the USA and Japan are concerned, but the other side of the table is far form comfortable.