alternative comparative analysis: LCA vs JF-17 / FC-1

[aaaditya]

MCA is just a concept. When did its project defenition phased completed ? (url)

dont know the exact date ,but the airforce claims that the project has been sanction,it is to be nothing but stealthier ,heavier ,twin engined version of lca in the weight category of 18-20tons intended to replace the jaguars and mirage2000's,this came in yesterday's and today's news.i have already posted it in this forum(the link).

 

[tphuang]

Which one are you talking about? The FC1 ? That's only a B&W picture showing 2 guys working on a section of 04 prototype, which does not give you any clue but an indication that 04 probably won't fly this year because they would've shown up the whole plane instead.

no, about the score of J-10 vs flankers.

 

[gf0012-aust]

no, about the score of J-10 vs flankers.

which is what I've also asked about earlier on...

 

[tphuang]

which is what I've also asked about earlier on...

There are Chinese articles online by people who claimed to have seen the mock combats with J-10 winning all the a2a combats vs su-27 and 30. In fact, it's mentionned enough times, but has never been refuted by any of the flanker supporters in China. Still, I would like to see a newspaper reporting this. So far, it's pretty much just the article I provided earlier that stated J-10 had superior manuverability. Another one is from the January issue of a magazine called "world military" (translated from Chinese). http://www.favip.com/article/article/read2.asp?id=5664 (amongst many other sites listing the same.

Basically has a few points:
1) FC-1 does not represent the highest domestic standard in fighters.
2) the "Bayi" (August first, basically the Chinese most famous of the pla army) flight instructor officer said that "what left the most impression for him in the air exercises is a new fighter jet." When pressed about the overall ability of this plane, the officer said "this domestically fighter repeatedly defeated China's blue chip fighter (flanker, obviously), the capability of the fighter is definitely world class".
3. when asked if this plane is being put in service, he simply said the cost of the plane is expensive.

The Chinese section:
" 中国西北 5:0 歼十踢翻SU-27


2005 年第一期《世界军事》的第26页(文:八一飞行表演队探秘)之“未来的空骑â€之节内有关国产某新型战机的描述，有三点值得我们注意：1、FC-1不能代表国产战斗机的最高水平。 2、李队长说他观摩了在我国西部的某新型战机实战演练留下了深刻的印象，记者追问到某新型战机的具体性能，李队长说：“该型国产战斗机在对抗中多次打败《长空铸剑》中的兰鲨战斗机（注：看过此片的都知道是SU-27），性能绝对世界一流。â€3、再说到飞行队是否装备，回答说造价还很昂贵。 "

Another thing that you might have noticed is that China stopped buying mkks and licensed production of 27sk. To me, the only explanation is that J-10 has raised the bar.

 

[wp2000]

which is what I've also asked about earlier on...

Unfortunitely, the article I was talking about was published on CAC's newspaper, and it's not a newspaper you can buy on the street, it only targets china's aviation industry and mainly CAC itself. So, sorry, I don't have a scanned picture of the article.

Also, in china's military forums, even SAC(J11's manufacturer)'s supporters (some are SAC's employees) never questined these combat results. They all focused on arguing why it's not such a big deal that Flankers lost and if J11 got this or that then it can definitely hod its ground against J10, plus it has longer range and bigger payload.

 

[ajaybhutani]

There are Chinese articles online by people who claimed to have seen the mock combats with J-10 winning all the a2a combats vs su-27 and 30. In fact, it's mentionned enough times, but has never been refuted by any of the flanker supporters in China. Still, I would like to see a newspaper reporting this. So far, it's pretty much just the article I provided earlier that stated J-10 had superior manuverability. Another one is from the January issue of a magazine called "world military" (translated from Chinese). http://www.favip.com/article/article/read2.asp?id=5664 (amongst many other sites listing the same.

Basically has a few points:
1) FC-1 does not represent the highest domestic standard in fighters.
2) the "Bayi" (August first, basically the Chinese most famous of the pla army) flight instructor officer said that "what left the most impression for him in the air exercises is a new fighter jet." When pressed about the overall ability of this plane, the officer said "this domestically fighter repeatedly defeated China's blue chip fighter (flanker, obviously), the capability of the fighter is definitely world class".
3. when asked if this plane is being put in service, he simply said the cost of the plane is expensive.

The Chinese section:
" 中国西北 5:0 歼十踢翻SU-27


2005 年第一期《世界军事》的第26页(文:八一飞行表演队探秘)之“未来的空骑â€之节内有关国产某新型战机的描述，有三点值得我们注意：1、FC-1不能代表国产战斗机的最高水平。 2、李队长说他观摩了在我国西部的某新型战机实战演练留下了深刻的印象，记者追问到某新型战机的具体性能，李队长说：“该型国产战斗机在对抗中多次打败《长空铸剑》中的兰鲨战斗机（注：看过此片的都知道是SU-27），性能绝对世界一流。â€3、再说到飞行队是否装备，回答说造价还很昂贵。 "

Another thing that you might have noticed is that China stopped buying mkks and licensed production of 27sk. To me, the only explanation is that J-10 has raised the bar.

there are a few points to be considered here
1. SUMKK's purchased have costed 50mn a peice. thats damn expensive to purchase.
2. the chineese production is basic su27 and not much capable due to inferior avionics and radars.
3. the J10 even if its half the performane of MKK will come at 25M$ a peice( at most) and is surely a better deal to buy 2 J10's than a MKK .. as with this the money will remain in the country and contribute to the economy.
Furthermore the big question is also to maintain the numbers to some extent. replacing by costly MKK's isnt a good idea at all.

 

[ajaybhutani]

MCA is just a concept. When did its project defenition phased completed ? (url)

there are big setbacks for MCA even before it starts.
Firstly it doesnot have internal weapon bays.( at least the initial plan). and without it a fighter that comes in production after 2015 doesnot make sense.
secondly the LCA is delayed and not yet accepted by IAF( with full heart).
Till IAF shows satisfaction towards LCA i dont see DRDO/HAL etc getting any funding for MCA.
the kaveri engine. after integration of KAveri in LCA is complete. we can expect some more faith in MCa.
Before these three needs are met. it wouldnt be right to fund the MCA.

 

[ajaybhutani]

hmm, that's interesting. What about in terms of the radius of the actual radar?

LCA's MMR radar antenna diameter is 650mm while that of Zhuk-ME's 624.
BTW how does J10 and FC-17's radar aperture space compare to other fighters
Wasnt ZhukME also a candidate for J10. What other radars can be fitted into J10??

I would think that would be the more limiting factor. I understand that the GE should be the engine you guys use. Honestly, India is in a different boat than China, it doesn't have to develop stuff on its own, because people actually sell stuff to India.

Its mostly better to produce urself than buy from outside.And thats why india needs to develop technology and make the kaveri. Its more about self reliance than about availability of tech and weapons.

 

[ajaybhutani]

antenna diameter values for some other radars
Gripens radar 600 mm
SU30 radar( all models) 980mm-1m
Bars29 planned for Mig35. 600 mm.

Kopyo-F 440 mm

 

[tphuang]

there are a few points to be considered here
1. SUMKK's purchased have costed 50mn a peice. thats damn expensive to purchase.
2. the chineese production is basic su27 and not much capable due to inferior avionics and radars.
3. the J10 even if its half the performane of MKK will come at 25M$ a peice( at most) and is surely a better deal to buy 2 J10's than a MKK .. as with this the money will remain in the country and contribute to the economy.
Furthermore the big question is also to maintain the numbers to some extent. replacing by costly MKK's isnt a good idea at all.

Well, the article that I posted quoted from the flight demonstration officer (who were there in the exercise) said that J-10 have better manuverability than su-30mkk also. There were 3 exercises: 2 versus su-27 (j-11) and 1 versus mkk. J-10 won all air manuvers. I think the mkk2s were about 40 million each (according to Kanwa, 24 purchased at less than $1 billion) and mkks were 35 million each.http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su-30.htm

Let's put it this way, many of the Chinese posters do not even want to buy su-34/35.

As for radar aperture space, you can assume J-10 to be similar to F-16 C/D, (whatever that is). I'd say JF-17 should be in the Gripen/LCA range.

Radars talked about on J-10, Zhemchug supposedly had a 700 mm diameter? Also, ELTA-2035 was tried.

 

[ajaybhutani]

Well, the article that I posted quoted from the flight demonstration officer (who were there in the exercise) said that J-10 have better manuverability than su-30mkk also. There were 3 exercises: 2 versus su-27 (j-11) and 1 versus mkk. J-10 won all air manuvers. I think the mkk2s were about 40 million each (according to Kanwa, 24 purchased at less than $1 billion) and mkks were 35 million each.http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su-30.htm

Let's put it this way, many of the Chinese posters do not even want to buy su-34/35.

As for radar aperture space, you can assume J-10 to be similar to F-16 C/D, (whatever that is). I'd say JF-17 should be in the Gripen/LCA range.

Radars talked about on J-10, Zhemchug supposedly had a 700 mm diameter? Also, ELTA-2035 was tried.

from the same FAS.ORG source

As a result of the 7th session of the Russian-Chinese commission on economic cooperation held in Beijing in August 1999, the two countries reached a general agreement on the deliveries to China of the Su-30MKK two-seat multipurpose fighters, worth a total of about two billion dollars. Under the agreement, Russia will start delivery of about 40 the jets to China between 2000 and 2002.

link:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/aircraft/j-11.htm

I have read somewhere else about two deals of 1.8B$ each for 36 planes each. I'll get back with that source too.

For the first deal different sources claim different numbers( while the total contract price is undisputed.) i.e . 38-40-45.
For the second deal( again for 1.8B$) the speculation over the net is for 38-40 planes. with people stating moscow times saying the number as 40.

So the cost runs out to be min of 40M$ to max of 50M$.
Interesting to note is that SU30MKM has costed average of 50 M$( 900M$ contract for 18 planes.).
MKI in contract is cheaper but the contract value doesnot include cost of indian israeli french and south african components.

 

[webmaster]

:unknown Why is J-10 and Su-30 being discussed in this thread? :nono

 

[ajaybhutani]

Well, the article that I posted quoted from the flight demonstration officer (who were there in the exercise) said that J-10 have better manuverability than su-30mkk also. There were 3 exercises: 2 versus su-27 (j-11) and 1 versus mkk. J-10 won all air manuvers. I think the mkk2s were about 40 million each (according to Kanwa, 24 purchased at less than $1 billion) and mkks were 35 million each.http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su-30.htm

were they BVR conflicts or WVR.. ??

But i think
As for radar aperture space, you can assume J-10 to be similar to F-16 C/D, (whatever that is). I'd say JF-17 should be in the Gripen/LCA range.

Radars talked about on J-10, Zhemchug supposedly had a 700 mm diameter? Also, ELTA-2035 was tried.

a lot of places J10's radar has been stated with 700mm diameter.
Gripen its 600mm.
LCa its 650mm.
Mig29 its 624 mm.
with this data though i do see J10's advantage over Mig29 in terms of what radar can be fitted. but nowhere over LCA with 650 mm dia and much lighter in weight and dimensions.

JF17 diameter is what i have doubts about. There has been no references whatsoever for its radar. what are the ones under consideration.. ??

 

[tphuang]

were they BVR conflicts or WVR.. ??

a lot of places J10's radar has been stated with 700mm diameter.
Gripen its 600mm.
LCa its 650mm.
Mig29 its 624 mm.
with this data though i do see J10's advantage over Mig29 in terms of what radar can be fitted. but nowhere over LCA with 650 mm dia and much lighter in weight and dimensions.

JF17 diameter is what i have doubts about. There has been no references whatsoever for its radar. what are the ones under consideration.. ??

It was said to be in different types of manuvers. Although, J-10 obviously has a huge advantage in BVR (since the sk and ubk can only fire the alamo for MRAAM). I'm kind of surprised that LCA's nose is that huge. Isn't it a single medium sized engine plane? Some Pakistanis are claiming JF-17 nose to be as large as 650mm, I seriously doubt it. I'm guessing 600mm is the most reasonable estimate, since it uses a single medium sized engine like Gripen. I believe Kopyo-F, ELTA-2032 and KLJ-10 were up for competition for the plaaf JF-17. The paf JF-17 had RC-400, Grifo S7, ELTA-2032 and KLJ-10. KLJ-10 has the plaaf contracts bagged. The first 50 paf JF-17 should also be using KLJ-10.

 

[SABRE]

were they BVR conflicts or WVR.. ??quote]

They were dog fights so it was WVR.

I came across one artical regarding J-10 vs Su-27 in a dog fight here on DT & several on Chinese forums & to tell you the fact they all seemed kids making up news.

The reports came at the time when China had officialy not declared the existance of J-10. Hence Chinese/CAC/PLAAF officials are not fool enough to release combat reports on aircraft that they say "does not exist", even though we knew J-10 existed & had seen illegal pics of it on various sites, including here on DT.

On the other hand the Sukhoi's superiority against any aircraft is in BVR (my personal opinion), once it falls in WVR its a good look & good bye target for fighters like F-16 & Mirage2000. J-10 ,being a derivative of Levi & Levi being a derivative of F-16, might have an advantage in WVR against Su-27 & may have defeated it in a dog fight.

The real test for J-10 is to go against Sukhois in BVR. F-16 & mirage2000-5 are said to be capable of taking on sukhois if mounted with AIM-120 AMRAAMs (specialy "c" version along with AESA radars to have an extra edge) in BVR at various levels but the question is that can J-10 do so. So far J-10s radar is said to be inferior in quality even though it is said it has greater range than Su-30's radar, hence it is my believe that unlike F-16 & M2K5 & 9, J-10 is not capable of going against Su-27/30 in BVR. But these are my personal opinions.

 

[ajaybhutani]

It was said to be in different types of manuvers. Although, J-10 obviously has a huge advantage in BVR (since the sk and ubk can only fire the alamo for MRAAM). I'm kind of surprised that LCA's nose is that huge. Isn't it a single medium sized engine plane?

LCA has many more things that are surprizing nough.. like its structure is 45% composites by weight. whole external body is only composites. wings are made as a single peice composite. ( i think its the only plane with a single peice composite wing.).
It all can be very well understood from the fact that indians havent copied any planes. but surely got a lot of info from the planes in service.( M2k and Mig29). and so the design on the whole was made to get the best of all they had seen.

Some Pakistanis are claiming JF-17 nose to be as large as 650mm, I seriously doubt it. I'm guessing 600mm is the most reasonable estimate, since it uses a single medium sized engine like Gripen. I believe Kopyo-F, ELTA-2032 and KLJ-10 were up for competition for the plaaf JF-17. The paf JF-17 had RC-400, Grifo S7, ELTA-2032 and KLJ-10. KLJ-10 has the plaaf contracts bagged. The first 50 paf JF-17 should also be using KLJ-10.

frankly i even read somewhere( in one of the forums..) that pakistan is considering a 800mm diameter version of grifo S7. Now that is what i call as a wonderful. rumour....( if it comes true.. )
from info over the various forums Grifo S7 radar diameter 600mm. range 80 km.
extended version diameter 800mm range 100km.

people claim similar ranges and antenna diameter for KLJ10 but i dont know about the credibility. esp because the forum i read( BR is nowadays down a lot of time ).

 

[ajaybhutani]

were they BVR conflicts or WVR.. ??

They were dog fights so it was WVR.

I came across one artical regarding J-10 vs Su-27 in a dog fight here on DT & several on Chinese forums & to tell you the fact they all seemed kids making up news.

The reports came at the time when China had officialy not declared the existance of J-10. Hence Chinese/CAC/PLAAF officials are not fool enough to release combat reports on aircraft that they say "does not exist", even though we knew J-10 existed & had seen illegal pics of it on various sites, including here on DT.

On the other hand the Sukhoi's superiority against any aircraft is in BVR (my personal opinion), once it falls in WVR its a good look & good bye target for fighters like F-16 & Mirage2000. J-10 ,being a derivative of Levi & Levi being a derivative of F-16, might have an advantage in WVR against Su-27 & may have defeated it in a dog fight.

The real test for J-10 is to go against Sukhois in BVR. F-16 & mirage2000-5 are said to be capable of taking on sukhois if mounted with AIM-120 AMRAAMs (specialy "c" version along with AESA radars to have an extra edge) in BVR at various levels but the question is that can J-10 do so. So far J-10s radar is said to be inferior in quality even though it is said it has greater range than Su-30's radar, hence it is my believe that unlike F-16 & M2K5 & 9, J-10 is not capable of going against Su-27/30 in BVR. But these are my personal opinions.

actually i m quite surprise hearing that J10 radar has better range than SU30's radar...
Its a pulse doppler or a PESA ??( i was under an impression that china still doesnot have PESA technology.).
Secondly SU30 evolved with a lot of added weight from SU27 while the engine power remained the same .. So unless was talk about the more powerful derivatives of AL31F and also TVC i wont be amazed that J10 can is more manouverable.
The last i recall reading about SU30's radar ranges. N1011M ( before being fitted into SU30MKI). could get a SU27 at 330km. and after that newer transmitter modules were added to increase the range. Also the backend control was replaced by an indian multiprocessor system. i would expect the current verions of BARS to be capable of much longer ranges.
BTW whats the J10's RCS expected to be ??

 

[ajaybhutani]

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[tphuang]

They were dog fights so it was WVR.

I came across one artical regarding J-10 vs Su-27 in a dog fight here on DT & several on Chinese forums & to tell you the fact they all seemed kids making up news.

The reports came at the time when China had officialy not declared the existance of J-10. Hence Chinese/CAC/PLAAF officials are not fool enough to release combat reports on aircraft that they say "does not exist", even though we knew J-10 existed & had seen illegal pics of it on various sites, including here on DT.

On the other hand the Sukhoi's superiority against any aircraft is in BVR (my personal opinion), once it falls in WVR its a good look & good bye target for fighters like F-16 & Mirage2000. J-10 ,being a derivative of Levi & Levi being a derivative of F-16, might have an advantage in WVR against Su-27 & may have defeated it in a dog fight.

The real test for J-10 is to go against Sukhois in BVR. F-16 & mirage2000-5 are said to be capable of taking on sukhois if mounted with AIM-120 AMRAAMs (specialy "c" version along with AESA radars to have an extra edge) in BVR at various levels but the question is that can J-10 do so. So far J-10s radar is said to be inferior in quality even though it is said it has greater range than Su-30's radar, hence it is my believe that unlike F-16 & M2K5 & 9, J-10 is not capable of going against Su-27/30 in BVR. But these are my personal opinions.

Kids making news? I don't think it's kid making news when I read it on a popular Chinese military magazine. And the people they were interviewing were officers from those mock air combats. They had scanned pictures of these articles too. Although, as I said earlier, it was taken off, because the forums only keep photos for so long. As for J-10's not being declared? It was just revealed on People's daily and Xinhua a few days ago.

As for J-10s radar, it was definitely a multi-mode slotted array radar in the beginning. Who knows when a PESA radar will be fitted on it. Maybe it has already or maybe in 2 or 3 years?

Sukhoi's main advantage is in its BVR? su-27sk and ubk doesn't even have BVR capability. And vs su-30, PL-12 uses the recent active guidance seeking technology from Agat (who also produces active guidance for R-77) and has a better motor than the one in R-77.

As for radar, 1473 managed to beat out the ones offered by the Russians based on performance to win the J-10 contract, so I don't think it's inferior in quality at all. su-30mkk can barely do multi-engagement. The Chinese ones can do at least 4 simultaneous engagements:
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.48/pub_detail.asp
"At the IDEAS show the CATIC export arm distributed a new brochure for the active-radar guided Louyang PL-12/SD-10, which indicated this missile would be supported by a new radar capable of processing four simultaneous engagements."
The currently mentionned track/engagement numbers are normally 20/4 or 15/6. Think about it this way, China was so displeased with the avionics on the su-27 and mkks, that it chose to put on J-11 the avionics from J-10 instead of the skm upgrade package.

To ajay, I think what Sabre is saying is that J-10's radar has greater range than the su-30mkk radar. It's actually about the same (110KM for frontal detection and 40KM for rear vs 3m^2 targets), although slightly surprising, since flankers have much bigger nose.

As for bars, this is its true ability according to the manufacturer. http://niip.info/main.php?page=raz_sky_bars
I think the expected engagement range for Irbis is 170 KM vs 5 m^2 targets.

I got this from an article on edefenseonline:

"In December 2003, after the Su-27SM modernization program had been deemed a success, Russia announced that it would proceed with the so-called "big modernization" program. The modernized aircraft is called the Su-35BM (also T-10BM) by Sukhoi, but it is not yet known what name will be adopted by the Russian Air Force. The Su-35BM program is to be a deep modernization of existing airframes, not newly produced aircraft.

The main new feature of the aircraft is to be a new radar. It has not yet been decided whether it will be the Phazotron-NIIR N031 Sokol or the Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis. The first is actually the well-known Zhuk radar with a passively scanned phased array, while the Irbis is a version of the N011M Bars-M, also with a passively scanned phased array. In 2003 a new phased-array antenna was tested for Indian Su-30MKI aircraft, but it achieved only +/-45 degrees of horizontal field of view, instead of the planned +/-70 degrees. The remaining angle of 25 degrees was achieved mechanically via a hydraulic servo, which was an unsatisfactory solution. The Irbis is to differ from the Bars-M by having quick servos that are tightly synchronized with the radar electronics to achieve the 70 degrees of scan on either side of the fighter's axis. Sources says that NIIP's solution is preferred by the Russian Air Force, since NIIP radar sets were all proven in service. The radar is to have similar capabilities to the N011M Bars-M. The detection range of a fighter airplane (170 km) and a destroyer-sized naval target (300 km) more or less matches the N011M's performance."

For the price of mkk, I believe the first contract was 1.85 billion for 38 and second was 1.5 billion for 38. However, they probably include different AAMs.
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/q-5_jh-7_h-6.htm

As for J-10s RCS, I'd expect it to be like F-16. It is said to have RAM coating and some stealth features. So, probably 1 m^2?

As for LCA, I'm not surprised by the composite material, but rather its nose size. I'd think LCA would have 600 like Gripen or JF-17. I just can't imagine HAL is better at developing fighter frames than Saab and CAC.

 

[ajaybhutani]

As for radar, 1473 managed to beat out the ones offered by the Russians based on performance to win the J-10 contract, so I don't think it's inferior in quality at all. su-30mkk can barely do multi-engagement. The Chinese ones can do at least 4 simultaneous engagements:
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.48/pub_detail.asp

and thats is the reason india replaced the processor for MKI with its own. which tracks 20 targets and engages 8. China should have tried replacing the same.( or was it not allowed from russia.).

"At the IDEAS show the CATIC export arm distributed a new brochure for the active-radar guided Louyang PL-12/SD-10, which indicated this missile would be supported by a new radar capable of processing four simultaneous engagements."
The currently mentionned track/engagement numbers are normally 20/4 or 15/6. Think about it this way, China was so displeased with the avionics on the su-27 and mkks, that it chose to put on J-11 the avionics from J-10 instead of the skm upgrade package.

we all know russian avionics suck..

To ajay, I think what Sabre is saying is that J-10's radar has greater range than the su-30mkk radar. It's actually about the same (110KM for frontal detection and 40KM for rear vs 3m^2 targets), although slightly surprising, since flankers have much bigger nose.

which radar version are u talking about.. ?? N011??

BTW LCA's radar is speculated to be 100km frontal detection.

As for bars, this is its true ability according to the manufacturer. http://niip.info/main.php?page=raz_sky_bars

when was the last update date for the page.. ?? i couldnt find it..
since the development of indian MKi started BARS specifications must have changed considerably considering the fact that a more powerful transmitter was placed and also the radar controller has been replaced.

I think the expected engagement range for Irbis is 170 KM vs 5 m^2 targets.

I got this from an article on edefenseonline:

"In December 2003, after the Su-27SM modernization program had been deemed a success, Russia announced that it would proceed with the so-called "big modernization" program. The modernized aircraft is called the Su-35BM (also T-10BM) by Sukhoi, but it is not yet known what name will be adopted by the Russian Air Force. The Su-35BM program is to be a deep modernization of existing airframes, not newly produced aircraft.

The main new feature of the aircraft is to be a new radar. It has not yet been decided whether it will be the Phazotron-NIIR N031 Sokol or the Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis. The first is actually the well-known Zhuk radar with a passively scanned phased array, while the Irbis is a version of the N011M Bars-M, also with a passively scanned phased array. In 2003 a new phased-array antenna was tested for Indian Su-30MKI aircraft, but it achieved only +/-45 degrees of horizontal field of view, instead of the planned +/-70 degrees. The remaining angle of 25 degrees was achieved mechanically via a hydraulic servo, which was an unsatisfactory solution. The Irbis is to differ from the Bars-M by having quick servos that are tightly synchronized with the radar electronics to achieve the 70 degrees of scan on either side of the fighter's axis. Sources says that NIIP's solution is preferred by the Russian Air Force, since NIIP radar sets were all proven in service. The radar is to have similar capabilities to the N011M Bars-M. The detection range of a fighter airplane (170 km) and a destroyer-sized naval target (300 km) more or less matches the N011M's performance."

but it even says it more or less matches the N011M's performance . itself claiming that current bars range is 170km.

For the price of mkk, I believe the first contract was 1.85 billion for 38 and second was 1.5 billion for 38. However, they probably include different AAMs.
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/q-5_jh-7_h-6.htm

As for J-10s RCS, I'd expect it to be like F-16. It is said to have RAM coating and some stealth features. So, probably 1 m^2?

thanks for the info.. ( in other words same as a reduced RCS F16).
now i wonder whats the RCS for LCA( as i have no idea about it ).. except that its small size and extensive use of avionics should give it some advantages.

As for LCA, I'm not surprised by the composite material, but rather its nose size. I'd think LCA would have 600 like Gripen or JF-17. I just can't imagine HAL is better at developing fighter frames than Saab and CAC.

the info is from ACIG site documenting AERO india 2005
http://www.acig.org/exclusives/aero/acig_aero05_lca.htm.