alternative comparative analysis: LCA vs JF-17 / FC-1

[moinanwer]

but they could be more reliable and lesser maintanence will be required.

like AMX cant a more powerfull engine be used with out after burner, it gives less heat signatures and may also use less fuel.

Commets from wiser members

 

[fieldmarshal]

JF-17 is an open architecture design. So there is room for lots of things n improvement and as time goes by this ac will become better n better.

No 1 on this forum or any where else knows any thing about the thunder on a first hand basis, wt is doing the rounds are guesses n that is exactly the policy of PAF n the Chinese, "to keep the enemy guessing". :gun

LCA is a non starter to begin with and will be only inducted into iaf on a symbolic basis. The best the indian can hope for from the lca is maybe its usefulness as testbed or maybe the experience gained by the indians on the lca might be usefull if the indians decide to produce somthing else.

JF-17 will enter service with both PAF n PLAAF in large numbers running into their hundreds. It will find foreign customers as well as canbe seen by the interest shown by iran, bangladesh, zambabwe etc.
This plane as time goes by will become better n better hence th open arcitucture.

So to compare these to ac is injustice as no 1 knows the specs of either, at the same time 1 might not even see the light of the day.

 

[aaaditya]

well field marshal you seem to know a lot about lca project ,but i dont agree with you ,lca project is too advanced to go back now.even iaf has pinned its hopes on it,the current fighter(mrca) order is just meant,to maintain the force balance,iaf plans to acquire 60 combat aircraft squadrons(originally 80),and lca forms a major part of it.about as much information is available on the lca as there is about jf17.also safran group a part of snecma has been invited to join the kaveri project,they are to carry out an evaluation of the project early next year(this invitation,itself shows india's commitment towards the project,because foreign companies are not usually permitted to evaluate indian projects).the initial batch is 20(20 optional)are to be powered by the ge-f414in20 engines (a customised version of the existing engines)

The radar to be used is a bit sketchy,from what i know,there are some problems with the existing pulse doppler radar,an aesa is being developed indigenously by the lrde.elbit and bel have signed an agreement for joint development of a family of sensors for the lca.elta recently displayed it's el-m-2052 radar claiming that it can be used on the lca(i have already posted an image of it).there are reports that india and russia are jointly developing the irbis(snow leapord)aesa for the su-30.so the radar issue is a bit sketchy.
the design work is reportedly completed on the nlca and the project has been sanctioned.also the latest news that i have found out on the kaveri project is that currently 150 private companies are participating in it's development.so the project cannot be considered as a non starter,because it has already started,though it is not clear when it will be completed.

 

[wp2000]

JF-17 is an open architecture design. So there is room for lots of things n improvement and as time goes by this ac will become better n better.

No 1 on this forum or any where else knows any thing about the thunder on a first hand basis, wt is doing the rounds are guesses n that is exactly the policy of PAF n the Chinese, "to keep the enemy guessing". :gun

LCA is a non starter to begin with and will be only inducted into iaf on a symbolic basis. The best the indian can hope for from the lca is maybe its usefulness as testbed or maybe the experience gained by the indians on the lca might be usefull if the indians decide to produce somthing else.

JF-17 will enter service with both PAF n PLAAF in large numbers running into their hundreds. It will find foreign customers as well as canbe seen by the interest shown by iran, bangladesh, zambabwe etc.
This plane as time goes by will become better n better hence th open arcitucture.

So to compare these to ac is injustice as no 1 knows the specs of either, at the same time 1 might not even see the light of the day.

Sorry to say that, but you got to apply the same logic to your own opinions.

LCA's fate will be decided by IAF, and JF17/FC1's fate will be decided by PAF and PLAAF. Both planes still got a long way to go, judging from their current testing progress. Both are designed according to their own percieved requirements and improved along the way. So I would not write off any one of them so early and so easily.

 

[tphuang]

well field marshal you seem to know a lot about lca project ,but i dont agree with you ,lca project is too advanced to go back now.even iaf has pinned its hopes on it,the current fighter(mrca) order is just meant,to maintain the force balance,iaf plans to acquire 60 combat aircraft squadrons(originally 80),and lca forms a major part of it.about as much information is available on the lca as there is about jf17.also safran group a part of snecma has been invited to join the kaveri project,they are to carry out an evaluation of the project early next year(this invitation,itself shows india's commitment towards the project,because foreign companies are not usually permitted to evaluate indian projects).the initial batch is 20(20 optional)are to be powered by the ge-f414in20 engines (a customised version of the existing engines)

The radar to be used is a bit sketchy,from what i know,there are some problems with the existing pulse doppler radar,an aesa is being developed indigenously by the lrde.elbit and bel have signed an agreement for joint development of a family of sensors for the lca.elta recently displayed it's el-m-2052 radar claiming that it can be used on the lca(i have already posted an image of it).there are reports that india and russia are jointly developing the irbis(snow leapord)aesa for the su-30.so the radar issue is a bit sketchy.
the design work is reportedly completed on the nlca and the project has been sanctioned.also the latest news that i have found out on the kaveri project is that currently 150 private companies are participating in it's development.so the project cannot be considered as a non starter,because it has already started,though it is not clear when it will be completed.

hmm, can ELM-2052 actually fit in the nose of LCA? It should be the same size as JF-17, which means using radar in the class of Kopyo-F.

As for Irbis, you are dead wrong here. It is a Passive ESA radar. The reason why Irbis is needed is because Bars is not pure ESA. It has to mechanically steer for 25 degrees on each side. Check some Russian sites if you don't believe me.

I will believe Kaveri is even close to successful when I see one. India still hasn't produced even 1 turbo fan engine.

 

[fieldmarshal]

Sorry to say that, but you got to apply the same logic to your own opinions.

LCA's fate will be decided by IAF, and JF17/FC1's fate will be decided by PAF and PLAAF. Both planes still got a long way to go, judging from their current testing progress. Both are designed according to their own percieved requirements and improved along the way. So I would not write off any one of them so early and so easily.

Well for ur n ur info alone..........Jf-17s fate has been decided n it is to enter service both with PAF n PLAAF early next year ie 06. JF-17 certainly has a bright n prosperous future not just in the service of PAF n PLAAF but in the service of many other airforces around the world.
On the other hand lca entering service with the iaf ..............well when that happens, my guess is as good as yours.
LCA has no future, take my word for it.

 

[wp2000]

by the way do you know what is the percentage of composites used on the jf17's structure and their composistion?

The current FC1 design? I don't know the exact percentage, but from what I heard, very low percentage. The DSI intake will use composites and some few places.

In fact, CAC has been trying not to use composites as much as possible, but I heard PAF still requires few hundred Kg weight reduction, so they may have to use a bit more composites here and there.

FC1 is CAC's first plane that they claim to use a new design philosophy, I don't know how to translate it. Basically, most of china's fighter projects are either for quantity to compensate quality or for quality to catch up with other countries. None of them, except FC1, is designed as a pure fighter with commercials in mind. Most of them carried too much other expections, e.g. self reliance etc... FC1 is a fighter that needs to be affordable to many third world countries, and cheap to maintain in peace time, plenty of room to grow, and relatively easy to manufacture. It's not going to compete with those super dupa planes. It should to be like an AK47.

That's why Cost/Performance ratio is a very important figure, if it's not the top requirement. CAC's other plane J10 is an example of different consideration. It was designed to reach the high performace first, then weigh in the cost factor and let PLAAF to choose the best that they can afford.

 

[fieldmarshal]

well field marshal you seem to know a lot about lca project ,but i dont agree with you ,lca project is too advanced to go back now.even iaf has pinned its hopes on it,the current fighter(mrca) order is just meant,to maintain the force balance,iaf plans to acquire 60 combat aircraft squadrons(originally 80),and lca forms a major part of it.about as much information is available on the lca as there is about jf17.also safran group a part of snecma has been invited to join the kaveri project,they are to carry out an evaluation of the project early next year(this invitation,itself shows india's commitment towards the project,because foreign companies are not usually permitted to evaluate indian projects).the initial batch is 20(20 optional)are to be powered by the ge-f414in20 engines (a customised version of the existing engines)

The radar to be used is a bit sketchy,from what i know,there are some problems with the existing pulse doppler radar,an aesa is being developed indigenously by the lrde.elbit and bel have signed an agreement for joint development of a family of sensors for the lca.elta recently displayed it's el-m-2052 radar claiming that it can be used on the lca(i have already posted an image of it).there are reports that india and russia are jointly developing the irbis(snow leapord)aesa for the su-30.so the radar issue is a bit sketchy.
the design work is reportedly completed on the nlca and the project has been sanctioned.also the latest news that i have found out on the kaveri project is that currently 150 private companies are participating in it's development.so the project cannot be considered as a non starter,because it has already started,though it is not clear when it will be completed.

Man i think that either you got ur fact n figures wrong . You are telling me that that iaf plans to increase its ac strength to 60 combat ac squardrons. You were generous enough to decrease that from 80.:lol3. your funny.:lol3

I dont think you know the current iaf fighter squadron strength. which stands at 30 squadrons, down from 39, declared by the then iaf Chief of Air Staff a couple of years ago. The loss is due to the large ageing fleet of MiG-21s as well as MiG-23s and MiG-27s. Even though these ac have not been phased out yet but the iaf acm considers them redundant. (intreging)

Till 2003, India had approximately 700 combat jets, according to the Military Balance published by the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS). About 600 of these were of Soviet/ Russian origin, and of them, more than half, or 300-plus, were MiG 21s. Then there were 78-MiG 23s, 135 MiG-27s, 63-MiG 29s, and seven MiG-25s,
Except for 125 MiG-21s, which are being upgraded to the MiG 21-BIS standard, all other Mig-21s and all the MiG-23s and MiG-27s aircraft are due to be phased out by 2007.

Now if it has taken india to reach a fighter squadron strength of 39 in 50 years than than how it plans to double it strength in a couple of years when half its fleet is up for retirement. . This iaf dream of increasing combat strength to 60-80 combat squadrons will remain just that, a dream.
About the lca is fully agree with you that the lca project is "so very advanced", it has taken india wt more than 2 decades to reach this "advance stage" where it no where near its goal of reinventing the wheel. So believe me when i say this i and the rest of Pakistan is happy for you, the more money u put down the drain, the more time u waste", we cant be happier.
All other talk about the lca engine, radar etc we have been haring since ages
n will continue for ages.
Buddy i hope u take the above in good spirit as no pun intended.

 

[fieldmarshal]

MR aaaditya
A quote for you and the likes of you

"If LCA is so good than why is India inviting bids for 126 multi purpose aircrafts. Remember LCA was supoose to replace the Mig 21 and now India has to import planes to do so.

Remember the key here is what becomes operational and meets the strategic and tactical needs of the country. One can do all the indegnous R&D and develop all the technology demonstators and gets whatever related benefits but it is not operational, it is still a failure. On the other hand if country steals, buys or copys technology from what ever sources and get whats its wants for its defence requirements and saves money in the process, it is a strategic success."

 

[wp2000]

Well for ur n ur info alone..........Jf-17s fate has been decided n it is to enter service both with PAF n PLAAF early next year ie 06. JF-17 certainly has a bright n prosperous future not just in the service of PAF n PLAAF but in the service of many other airforces around the world.
On the other hand lca entering service with the iaf ..............well when that happens, my guess is as good as yours.
LCA has no future, take my word for it.

I know JF-17's situation is definitely better than many people are speculating. tphuang probablely can confirm that CAC has got 90 FC1 order from PLAAF, and contrary to flight international's analysis, these late changes are because of PLAAF and PAF's new requirements. (Flight international said that DSI is to solve the smokey RD93's problem:gun ,Gee)

But at the same time, I would not make a conclusion on LCA, because I have no source of information other than just news and rumors. Maybe you have more information on LCA, but still as I said, it's up to the Indians to decide its fate, not us.

 

[gf0012-aust]

For everyones benefit.

Stay on topic or the thread will be locked.

Speculation is speculation - any comments about what the LCA, JF-17/FC-1 will or will not do is just that - speculation.

Any irrelevant comments about what will or will not happen to another countries will be deleted.

Nobody in here is in a position to pass comment about the success or failure of another countries air programmes - it's a country by country issue.

 

[aaaditya]

hmm, can ELM-2052 actually fit in the nose of LCA? It should be the same size as JF-17, which means using radar in the class of Kopyo-F.

As for Irbis, you are dead wrong here. It is a Passive ESA radar. The reason why Irbis is needed is because Bars is not pure ESA. It has to mechanically steer for 25 degrees on each side. Check some Russian sites if you don't believe me.

I will believe Kaveri is even close to successful when I see one. India still hasn't produced even 1 turbo fan engine.

well el-m-2052 is available in weight categories of 150-250kgs and is claimed to be adaptable for lca,su30,f16 and f15.
even if the kaveri engine is not ready that does not meen the end of a project ,the ge-f-414in20 can be used it has the same specifications as the kaveri,the problem with the indian authorities is that they are obsessed with the indigenous development of engines(they consider it as some kind of a holy grail to develop one indigenously) even though they can reverse engineer one.they can develop any kind of platform but get stumped when it comes to developing the engine.

 

[tphuang]

well el-m-2052 is available in weight categories of 150-250kgs and is claimed to be adaptable for lca,su30,f16 and f15.
even if the kaveri engine is not ready that does not meen the end of a project ,the ge-f-414in20 can be used it has the same specifications as the kaveri,the problem with the indian authorities is that they are obsessed with the indigenous development of engines(they consider it as some kind of a holy grail to develop one indigenously) even though they can reverse engineer one.they can develop any kind of platform but get stumped when it comes to developing the engine.

hmm, that's interesting. What about in terms of the radius of the actual radar? I would think that would be the more limiting factor. I understand that the GE should be the engine you guys use. Honestly, India is in a different boat than China, it doesn't have to develop stuff on its own, because people actually sell stuff to India.

As for JF-17 with PLAAF, it's quite an interesting situation. Recently, the big argument has been about whether China should go with more J-8F or JF-17. It seems that JF-17 would join service in 2008 at the earliest. There is definitely a place in PLAAF for JF-17, but not as big as it used to be. Most Chinese people do look at JF-17 and the changes on JF-17 as something to help out Pakistan rather than its own industry.

 

[fieldmarshal]

I know JF-17's situation is definitely better than many people are speculating. tphuang probablely can confirm that CAC has got 90 FC1 order from PLAAF, and contrary to flight international's analysis, these late changes are because of PLAAF and PAF's new requirements. (Flight international said that DSI is to solve the smokey RD93's problem:gun ,Gee)

But at the same time, I would not make a conclusion on LCA, because I have no source of information other than just news and rumors. Maybe you have more information on LCA, but still as I said, it's up to the Indians to decide its fate, not us.

Well mate as i have stated earlier in my post the iaf would not have been looking for 126 MRCA from russia, france and the us had lca been the success or the iaf intended to induct it into service.
This for the very simple reason that lca was intended to replace the 300 odd mig 21 in service with iaf and after its failure to meet that requirment iaf is looking else ware. Now as aditya say lca will replace the mirage2000, admin: text deleted. inappropriate comments. you're one step closer to getting a suspension, 2nd mod, 2nd warning.
U come across as an intelligent person so i think you can put 2 and 2 together. This plane will not enter service in numbers. If hal had not done some arm twisting of the iaf than iaf would not have bought the numbers that it plans to induct in the future. When ever that might be.

 

[fieldmarshal]

As far as the indian claim of it being indeginious, here is somthing by some 1 from some where:
"LCA is an indigeneous plane, the title "LCA" is purely of indigenous coinage. I haven't seen that title used elsewhere, come to think of it, "Gnat" might have begun as an LCA project.
The software was actually designed by Lockeheed-Martin and the Indians finished it once the Indian scientists working in the US on that project were asked to leave due to embargo without the US contribution, that software is nothing.
The Engines are American, the Kaveri engine was designed by Germans (or French?) in Europe and is being tested in Russia, I think the cooperation-contract was written in India indigenoously even though the paper it was written on was probably non-indian. By the look of things, Kaveri is nowhere near operational.
The LCA fire control systems and weapon systems are Russian, but then everything russian is automatically Indigenous Indian anyway.
The Avionics are of Israeli and french origin.
The Lightweight synthetic material used in construction is European technology,
ejection seat is probably Martin-Baker or of Russian origin,
the glass canopy is russian,
the radar is Russian, contrary to what indian might want to believe.
That leaves the tyres, they might be indigneous, and the plastic switches and knobs might be of indian origin.

You don't seem to get the rules, now do you? Your subsequent posts are subject to arbitrary deletion.

 

[aaaditya]

Well mate as i have stated earlier in my post the iaf would not have been looking for 126 MRCA from russia, france and the us had lca been the success or the iaf intended to induct it into service.
This for the very simple reason that lca was intended to replace the 300 odd mig 21 in service with iaf and after its failure to meet that requirment iaf is looking else ware. Now as aditya say lca will replace the mirage2000, do u honestly believe that any 1 except the indian buys that crap.
U come across as an intelligent person so i think you can put 2 and 2 together. This plane will not enter service in numbers. If hal had not done some arm twisting of the iaf than iaf would not have bought the numbers

when did i ever say that lca will replace the mirage 2000.
all i said was that indian airforce requires a force of 60 combat squadrons.its force level currently is 39 squadrons and another 9 squadrons will be retired in the next couple of years.and hence to maintain the force level at the present levels india is going for these purchases.lca was never intended to replace the mirage2000's which is a medium category aircraft ,the primary role of the mirage in iaf is that of asf and nuclear strike,the new aircrafts to be acquired will form the bulk of the indian nuclear strike force(irrespective of the aircraft selected).
The lca will be used for air defence and ground attack purposes(when it becomes available).lca is a light category aircraft intended to replace the mig21(400 aircrafts including 125 bisons),mig23(200 aircrafts,phasing out of which has already started),mig27(being upgraded,160+ aircrafts).
this amounts to nearly 800 aircrafts(not including the jaguars,of which india has about 160),which will be retired in the next 20 years.currently the only new combat aircrafts available are su30(60,200),mig29(70) mirage2000(60).and that too just to maintain the force levels at the existing levels.


it is the same case as pakistan is looking at acquiring the f16's ,just because pakistan is acquiring the f16's does it meen that the jf17 project is dead.

 

[aaaditya]

As far as the indian claim of it being indeginious, here is somthing by some 1 from some where:
"LCA is an indigeneous plane, the title "LCA" is purely of indigenous coinage. I haven't seen that title used elsewhere, come to think of it, "Gnat" might have begun as an LCA project.
The software was actually designed by Lockeheed-Martin and the Indians finished it once the Indian scientists working in the US on that project were asked to leave due to embargo without the US contribution, that software is nothing.
The Engines are American, the Kaveri engine was designed by Germans (or French?) in Europe and is being tested in Russia, I think the cooperation-contract was written in India indigenoously even though the paper it was written on was probably non-indian. By the look of things, Kaveri is nowhere near operational.
The LCA fire control systems and weapon systems are Russian, but then everything russian is automatically Indigenous Indian anyway.
The Avionics are of Israeli and french origin.
The Lightweight synthetic material used in construction is European technology,
ejection seat is probably Martin-Baker or of Russian origin,
the glass canopy is russian,
the radar is Russian, contrary to what indian might want to believe.
That leaves the tyres, they might be indigneous, and the plastic switches and knobs might be of indian origin.

You don't seem to get the rules, now do you? Your subsequent posts are subject to arbitrary deletion.

the avionocs for which the lockheed martin corporation acted as consultants(tested on f-16 vista) were confisticated a long with the engines due to the us sanctions,and had to be developed from the scratch.currently indian private companies wipro and tcs are involved in the project.
the ejection seat is martin baker,and i must agree is currently being reverse engineered,the russian ejection seat was rejected as being too expensive.
the canopy is indigenous with an indigenously developed canopy severence system .

the tyres i dont know.

the radar is indian being developed by lrde(but facing problems,the last that i have heard about it and causing delays in testing of the pv2),the russians offered the kopyo-x,but it has not yet been selected.

initially the french avionics known as top flight were selected,they were then replaced by the israeli system ,now these israeli systems are being replaced by indian one,the israeli hud display is replaced by the indigenous csio-hud(slightly inferior to the israeli one in terms of field of view 30vs 32 degrees).

the kaveri engine was developed indigenously ,but tested in russia,now there may be french involvement since indians have accepted that they are facing problems with it and are open to safran's involvement.

 

[aaaditya]

the name of the indian company manufacturing indigenous avionics is samtel,also check out this article which just came today and which will give you info on the aircraft being designed to replace the mirage2000 and the jaguar(design work has already started)
and will also give you info on the status of the kaveri project.

http://dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=8110

 

[gf0012-aust]

Lets get back on topic. It's a technical capability comparative analysis that should be up for discussion.

Thus the analysis is tactical related - not strategic as such. I don't think we need to go into overdrive on issues of indigenous or non-indigenous anymore.

 

[fieldmarshal]

when did i ever say that lca will replace the mirage 2000.
all i said was that indian airforce requires a force of 60 combat squadrons.its force level currently is 39 squadrons and another 9 squadrons will be retired in the next couple of years.and hence to maintain the force level at the present levels india is going for these purchases.lca was never intended to replace the mirage2000's which is a medium category aircraft ,the primary role of the mirage in iaf is that of asf and nuclear strike,the new aircrafts to be acquired will form the bulk of the indian nuclear strike force(irrespective of the aircraft selected).
The lca will be used for air defence and ground attack purposes(when it becomes available).lca is a light category aircraft intended to replace the mig21(400 aircrafts including 125 bisons),mig23(200 aircrafts,phasing out of which has already started),mig27(being upgraded,160+ aircrafts).
this amounts to nearly 800 aircrafts(not including the jaguars,of which india has about 160),which will be retired in the next 20 years.currently the only new combat aircrafts available are su30(60,200),mig29(70) mirage2000(60).and that too just to maintain the force levels at the existing levels.


it is the same case as pakistan is looking at acquiring the f16's ,just because pakistan is acquiring the f16's does it meen that the jf17 project is dead.

if you read wt you have written above youll notice that you are contadicting ur self.
I suggest u go through my posts again.
No point going about in circles.