contedicavour
New Member
I already see a glimmer of hope in Dassault salesmen's eyes 
May be they will manage to sell some Rafales after all ...
cheers
May be they will manage to sell some Rafales after all ...
cheers
Algeria to return 15 MiG fighters
- Thread starter Tracer
- Start date
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #22
I translated this(by computer) from a French website. Interesting views on the state of Russian aircraft industry.
However, one can only concede with the Algerian part that the level of execution of the orders to export dropped considerably lately in the companies of the Russian complex military-industrialist. Even the persons in charge for the sector speak about it openly: Sergueï Ivanov, first Deputy Prime Minister and chief of the military-industrial commission, and Vladislav Poutiline, its first assistant. At the time of the recent conference of the Academy of Science military, Mr. Poutiline declared: “Although the companies of the complex military-industrialist increased these last months their production of more than 14% (+19,1% for the military production, and +7,6% for the civil production), some of them are not able to satisfy the military ordering of the State. Who more is, they are not able to employ completely the allocated sums for a long time, although the federal budget is not miserly in their connection and this. For example, 800 billion roubles (more than 22 billion Euros) were allocated for 2008 for the questions Defence, 900 billion roubles (nearly 25 billion Euros) is planned for 2009 and 1.100 billion roubles (more than 30 billion Euros) for 2010 ".
The reasons of this state of affairs in the Russian complex military-industrialist are well-known. It is initially the ageing of the highly qualified executives, whose average age approaches the retirement age dangerously. It is also the ageing of the technological chains and the park of machine tools: the age of the principal equipment in the industry of the armament for a long time exceeded the thirty years. Very major technologies were lost, of the contacts of long date as regards coproduction were broken, the factories know a deficit or a total lack of raw materials and materials which they need. It is also advisable to mention the uncontrolled rise in the prices of the energy matters which exceed the rates of inflation and the forecasts on which table the ministry for the economic Development. It is already clear that the military ordering of the State approved two years ago over the period 2006-2015 will be satisfied, neither on the level of the panel of ordered products, nor in quantity. It is already the third time that the industry of armament makes “hood” a military ordering of the State.
The graduates of the technical institutes do not postulate in the industry of the armament because of the relatively low wages and impossibility of quickly making there career with the difference, for example, of the sectors mining or pétrogazier. To become a qualified specialist in the complex militaro-industrialist, it is necessary to not work there a year or two, but at least ten years. It is impossible to learn there the trade with burns-pourpoint. Another reason also should be mentioned. Previously, the employees of the military factories were exempted of military service. Now, this privilege does not exist any more. Moreover, the young graduates of the vocational schools and technical schools prefer outward journey to work anywhere elsewhere, provided that the granting of a passport is not a problem (in Russia, the employees of the sector militaro-industrialist are subjected to restrictions as regards voyages abroad, note.).
Another difficulty lies in the absence of technical vocational schools today in Russia. The formation of the changing of the workmen is not ensured in the country. The good turners, milling machine operators, assemblers or welders are untraceable. Alas, without them, it is impossible to build good planes, missiles and ships.
Vladislav Poutiline affirms that “the causes of this state of affairs in the industry of the armament are known. The conversations on this subject, in various formats and all the branches of the capacity, became usual. But one still does not manage to organize the joint work of the federal bodies of the executive power, the organizations and the companies in order to cure these defects ".
The Russian planes which are the subject of the Algerian complaint probably concentrated all these problems about which one speaks much, but against which nothing is done. The fact is that the scandal of the reference of Mig in Russia could not be reflected solely on the relationship between Moscow and Algiers (on this subject, Algeria suspended the payments for all the other contracts concluded during the visit from Vladimir Putin in Algeria). A hard blow was carried to the prestige of Russia as an exporter of weapons, which can let predict large troubles in prospect. On the world market of the armaments, the errors are paid cash, and very expensive.
http://www.armees.com/Renvoi-des-MiG-par-l-Algerie-un-coup-dur-pour-Moscou,27659.html
However, one can only concede with the Algerian part that the level of execution of the orders to export dropped considerably lately in the companies of the Russian complex military-industrialist. Even the persons in charge for the sector speak about it openly: Sergueï Ivanov, first Deputy Prime Minister and chief of the military-industrial commission, and Vladislav Poutiline, its first assistant. At the time of the recent conference of the Academy of Science military, Mr. Poutiline declared: “Although the companies of the complex military-industrialist increased these last months their production of more than 14% (+19,1% for the military production, and +7,6% for the civil production), some of them are not able to satisfy the military ordering of the State. Who more is, they are not able to employ completely the allocated sums for a long time, although the federal budget is not miserly in their connection and this. For example, 800 billion roubles (more than 22 billion Euros) were allocated for 2008 for the questions Defence, 900 billion roubles (nearly 25 billion Euros) is planned for 2009 and 1.100 billion roubles (more than 30 billion Euros) for 2010 ".
The reasons of this state of affairs in the Russian complex military-industrialist are well-known. It is initially the ageing of the highly qualified executives, whose average age approaches the retirement age dangerously. It is also the ageing of the technological chains and the park of machine tools: the age of the principal equipment in the industry of the armament for a long time exceeded the thirty years. Very major technologies were lost, of the contacts of long date as regards coproduction were broken, the factories know a deficit or a total lack of raw materials and materials which they need. It is also advisable to mention the uncontrolled rise in the prices of the energy matters which exceed the rates of inflation and the forecasts on which table the ministry for the economic Development. It is already clear that the military ordering of the State approved two years ago over the period 2006-2015 will be satisfied, neither on the level of the panel of ordered products, nor in quantity. It is already the third time that the industry of armament makes “hood” a military ordering of the State.
The graduates of the technical institutes do not postulate in the industry of the armament because of the relatively low wages and impossibility of quickly making there career with the difference, for example, of the sectors mining or pétrogazier. To become a qualified specialist in the complex militaro-industrialist, it is necessary to not work there a year or two, but at least ten years. It is impossible to learn there the trade with burns-pourpoint. Another reason also should be mentioned. Previously, the employees of the military factories were exempted of military service. Now, this privilege does not exist any more. Moreover, the young graduates of the vocational schools and technical schools prefer outward journey to work anywhere elsewhere, provided that the granting of a passport is not a problem (in Russia, the employees of the sector militaro-industrialist are subjected to restrictions as regards voyages abroad, note.).
Another difficulty lies in the absence of technical vocational schools today in Russia. The formation of the changing of the workmen is not ensured in the country. The good turners, milling machine operators, assemblers or welders are untraceable. Alas, without them, it is impossible to build good planes, missiles and ships.
Vladislav Poutiline affirms that “the causes of this state of affairs in the industry of the armament are known. The conversations on this subject, in various formats and all the branches of the capacity, became usual. But one still does not manage to organize the joint work of the federal bodies of the executive power, the organizations and the companies in order to cure these defects ".
The Russian planes which are the subject of the Algerian complaint probably concentrated all these problems about which one speaks much, but against which nothing is done. The fact is that the scandal of the reference of Mig in Russia could not be reflected solely on the relationship between Moscow and Algiers (on this subject, Algeria suspended the payments for all the other contracts concluded during the visit from Vladimir Putin in Algeria). A hard blow was carried to the prestige of Russia as an exporter of weapons, which can let predict large troubles in prospect. On the world market of the armaments, the errors are paid cash, and very expensive.
http://www.armees.com/Renvoi-des-MiG-par-l-Algerie-un-coup-dur-pour-Moscou,27659.html
Nope. I dont know anything and haven seen any interview. It is very strange how in current world we get so little public technical information about many local conflicts - f.e. Ephiopia-Eritrea war.Hi Chrom
Do you know I might be able to read anything in English about Yemen pilots or any pilots who have flown the early model or basic Fulcrum 9.12 and then the upgraded SMT? Pilots love talking about there fighters I would like to think something is out there to read. Aren't there Russian test pilots who flown both or trained personnel that might have gave a interview to other then Russian press? I want to learn more about this aircraft but seem to only find general stuff. If you can help thanks
Pretty much. Algeria also cancelled gas contracts with Gasprom - so we certainly have big political influence here.I think most of this issue of the ''inferior quality'' is directly related to the natural gas contracts that's my two cents. We have a saying in the United States called "playing hard ball" this kind of looks like it.
No, i dont think so. MIG right now is pretty busy with upgrades and Indian contract - and besides not much (industrial capabilites) was left after 90x chaos. So i pretty much doubt Mig can launch new airframe in 2 years. 3 or 4 years sounds more real.Another question
If it took almost three years to get out the India K model Fulcrums do you think MIG Corporation can push out M type models in two years? Is there a true production line setup and running? I may be wrong but I always thought the K model Fulcrums for India 16/19 frames I think were custom jobs really and not made on your standard production line.
On the other hand, after fullfilling Indian contract there could be some free lines left. But then again, there could be already orders in place for next 5 years.
Mig-29
Thanks for the Mig-29 info it was useful and had feeling they been working off the 90 pre-made frames. I'm a big Fulcrum fan and always felt it was Russia's government fault that they never supported MIG's industrial capabilities. With more then 10 current users (really like 15 or 16, I think) no real push to hold this market nor capture more markets it's totally a government failure. I would like to think with steady funding the MIG INC could produce a good fighter. The entire time the Indian government/Air Force didn't pick a fighter was wasted what a shame. Russia government seems to have treaded MIG like my country did the F-20. I read in this other forum once that Fulcrums beats Flankers down low, real low when Russian pilots go up against each other in training. Would like to know if that's true. How you ever seen Fulcrums or Flankers flying?
Thanks for the Mig-29 info it was useful and had feeling they been working off the 90 pre-made frames. I'm a big Fulcrum fan and always felt it was Russia's government fault that they never supported MIG's industrial capabilities. With more then 10 current users (really like 15 or 16, I think) no real push to hold this market nor capture more markets it's totally a government failure. I would like to think with steady funding the MIG INC could produce a good fighter. The entire time the Indian government/Air Force didn't pick a fighter was wasted what a shame. Russia government seems to have treaded MIG like my country did the F-20. I read in this other forum once that Fulcrums beats Flankers down low, real low when Russian pilots go up against each other in training. Would like to know if that's true. How you ever seen Fulcrums or Flankers flying?
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Another article on the Algerian Migs:
The Algeria MiG Row And Russian Quality Assurance
by Nikita Petrov
Moscow (UPI) Feb 26, 2007
Algeria will return 15 MiG-29SMT -- Fulcrum -- fighters, purchased from the MiG Corp in 2006-2007, to Russia. The deal on the return was signed shortly before Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika visited the Russian Federation.
The ensuing scandal was picked up by the Russian press.
This is an unpleasant incident not only because Algeria has thereby expressed its dissatisfaction over the quality of Russian exports. This brings into doubt the entire military-technical cooperation between the two countries with a price tag of $7 billion. This is the sum of the contracts signed by Russian representatives during President Vladimir Putin's visit to Algeria.
This is the first demonstrative return during Russia's entire military-technical cooperation with foreign countries. What is the reason behind it?
Although military-technical cooperation is a sensitive subject, and not everything is known for sure, experts see many reasons behind this decision. One of them is the struggle between different political groups and clans in Algeria.
Arms supplies always involve middlemen who receive impressive shares for their services. Those who get nothing are naturally displeased about this. Intrigues are always part of these deals, but when those who sign the contracts possess real power, scandals never acquire global dimensions.
Competition is another reason. Paris was going to sell its own Rafale fighters to Algeria, but the Algerians opted for the MiGs instead of the French planes.
The terms of the contract for the MiG fighters were very good. First, the price of the Russian fighters was much lower and the characteristics were very much the same. Second, by buying the fighters Algeria was paying off its debt to the former Soviet Union and its successor Russia. Moreover, as part of the payment, Russia offered to take back 36 old MiGs that had been bought by Algeria from Ukraine and Belarus, and flown by the Algerian air force. Who would refuse such incentives?
It is hard to believe that the MiG-29SMTs -- one-seat and two-seat combat and training versions -- were of poor quality. Off the record, Russian arms exporters maintain that before being sent to the south Mediterranean coast, the fighters were approved by Algerian experts. They also checked them upon arrival in the country, and even started flying them.
How can they now complain of defects, used spare parts or rusted units? Why didn't they see them before? But the time for rhetorical questions has gone. Russia has signed the deal on the return of the 15 MiG-29SMT Fulcrum fighters and therefore Moscow is obliged to take them back.
Algerian experts are right when they talk about a drop in quality of Russian arms exports. This is openly admitted by top-ranking officials in charge of the Russian military-industrial sector, such as Sergei Ivanov, first deputy prime minister and head of the military and industrial commission, and his first deputy, Vladislav Putilin.
At a recent Academy of Military Sciences conference, Putilin said that "although the enterprises of the military-industrial sector have increased their turnout by more than 14 percent -- military production went up by 19.1 percent, and civilian by 7.6 percent -- some of them are simply unable to fulfill state-awarded contracts. Moreover, they cannot even use the allocated funds."
The Russian federal budget has long been generous. Thus, 800 billion rubles -- $28 billion -- were earmarked for defense purposes for 2008, 900 billion rubles -- $33 billion -- for 2009, and 1.1 trillion rubles -- $40 billion -- for 2010.
The reasons for this situation are well-known. Highly qualified personnel have come close to retirement age. Machines and technologies are becoming obsolescent -- capital equipment in the defense industry is more than 30 years old. Major technologies have been lost, usual contacts severed, and the required raw materials and equipment are in short supply. The price of energy has skyrocketed. It is leaving the inflation rate far behind and greatly exceeds the deflators fixed by the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade.
It is already clear that the 2006-2015 Russian state defense order endorsed just two years ago will not be fulfilled either in the range or number of products. This is the third order that the defense industry will not be able cope with.
Graduates of technical colleges are reluctant to work in the Russian defense industry. Salaries are rather low, and career opportunities cannot compete with those in the oil and gas industry. In order to become a leading expert, a graduate has to work in the defense sector for at least 10 years. This is a slow process.
And there is another reason. Before, young people were not drafted if they worked at a military plant called a mailbox. Now this benefit does not exist. After graduating from a technical vocational school or college, young people take any job rather than going to a place where getting a foreign passport may become a hassle.
One more problem is that technical vocational schools no longer exist. Nobody is training future workers. Good turners, assembly fitters and welders are worth their weight in gold. Without them, it is impossible to build high-quality aircraft, ships or missiles.
Putilin said that the "reasons for this situation in the defense industry are known. Talk about these problems in different formats and by all branches of power has become a ritual, but it is not always possible to coordinate the efforts by federal executive bodies, organizations, and enterprises aimed at removing these obstacles."
Apparently, the 15 MiG fighters to be returned by Algeria are a major example of these problems that are discussed at length but not resolved. This scandal may not only affect bilateral relations between Russia and Algeria. It has also dealt a heavy blow to Russia's image as arms exporter. This is fraught with big problems for the future. Mistakes on the world's arms market spell enormous losses.
(Nikita Petrov is an expert on the Russian defense industry. This article is reprinted by permission of RIA Novosti. The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.)
The Algeria MiG Row And Russian Quality Assurance
by Nikita Petrov
Moscow (UPI) Feb 26, 2007
Algeria will return 15 MiG-29SMT -- Fulcrum -- fighters, purchased from the MiG Corp in 2006-2007, to Russia. The deal on the return was signed shortly before Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika visited the Russian Federation.
The ensuing scandal was picked up by the Russian press.
This is an unpleasant incident not only because Algeria has thereby expressed its dissatisfaction over the quality of Russian exports. This brings into doubt the entire military-technical cooperation between the two countries with a price tag of $7 billion. This is the sum of the contracts signed by Russian representatives during President Vladimir Putin's visit to Algeria.
This is the first demonstrative return during Russia's entire military-technical cooperation with foreign countries. What is the reason behind it?
Although military-technical cooperation is a sensitive subject, and not everything is known for sure, experts see many reasons behind this decision. One of them is the struggle between different political groups and clans in Algeria.
Arms supplies always involve middlemen who receive impressive shares for their services. Those who get nothing are naturally displeased about this. Intrigues are always part of these deals, but when those who sign the contracts possess real power, scandals never acquire global dimensions.
Competition is another reason. Paris was going to sell its own Rafale fighters to Algeria, but the Algerians opted for the MiGs instead of the French planes.
The terms of the contract for the MiG fighters were very good. First, the price of the Russian fighters was much lower and the characteristics were very much the same. Second, by buying the fighters Algeria was paying off its debt to the former Soviet Union and its successor Russia. Moreover, as part of the payment, Russia offered to take back 36 old MiGs that had been bought by Algeria from Ukraine and Belarus, and flown by the Algerian air force. Who would refuse such incentives?
It is hard to believe that the MiG-29SMTs -- one-seat and two-seat combat and training versions -- were of poor quality. Off the record, Russian arms exporters maintain that before being sent to the south Mediterranean coast, the fighters were approved by Algerian experts. They also checked them upon arrival in the country, and even started flying them.
How can they now complain of defects, used spare parts or rusted units? Why didn't they see them before? But the time for rhetorical questions has gone. Russia has signed the deal on the return of the 15 MiG-29SMT Fulcrum fighters and therefore Moscow is obliged to take them back.
Algerian experts are right when they talk about a drop in quality of Russian arms exports. This is openly admitted by top-ranking officials in charge of the Russian military-industrial sector, such as Sergei Ivanov, first deputy prime minister and head of the military and industrial commission, and his first deputy, Vladislav Putilin.
At a recent Academy of Military Sciences conference, Putilin said that "although the enterprises of the military-industrial sector have increased their turnout by more than 14 percent -- military production went up by 19.1 percent, and civilian by 7.6 percent -- some of them are simply unable to fulfill state-awarded contracts. Moreover, they cannot even use the allocated funds."
The Russian federal budget has long been generous. Thus, 800 billion rubles -- $28 billion -- were earmarked for defense purposes for 2008, 900 billion rubles -- $33 billion -- for 2009, and 1.1 trillion rubles -- $40 billion -- for 2010.
The reasons for this situation are well-known. Highly qualified personnel have come close to retirement age. Machines and technologies are becoming obsolescent -- capital equipment in the defense industry is more than 30 years old. Major technologies have been lost, usual contacts severed, and the required raw materials and equipment are in short supply. The price of energy has skyrocketed. It is leaving the inflation rate far behind and greatly exceeds the deflators fixed by the Ministry of Economic Development and Trade.
It is already clear that the 2006-2015 Russian state defense order endorsed just two years ago will not be fulfilled either in the range or number of products. This is the third order that the defense industry will not be able cope with.
Graduates of technical colleges are reluctant to work in the Russian defense industry. Salaries are rather low, and career opportunities cannot compete with those in the oil and gas industry. In order to become a leading expert, a graduate has to work in the defense sector for at least 10 years. This is a slow process.
And there is another reason. Before, young people were not drafted if they worked at a military plant called a mailbox. Now this benefit does not exist. After graduating from a technical vocational school or college, young people take any job rather than going to a place where getting a foreign passport may become a hassle.
One more problem is that technical vocational schools no longer exist. Nobody is training future workers. Good turners, assembly fitters and welders are worth their weight in gold. Without them, it is impossible to build high-quality aircraft, ships or missiles.
Putilin said that the "reasons for this situation in the defense industry are known. Talk about these problems in different formats and by all branches of power has become a ritual, but it is not always possible to coordinate the efforts by federal executive bodies, organizations, and enterprises aimed at removing these obstacles."
Apparently, the 15 MiG fighters to be returned by Algeria are a major example of these problems that are discussed at length but not resolved. This scandal may not only affect bilateral relations between Russia and Algeria. It has also dealt a heavy blow to Russia's image as arms exporter. This is fraught with big problems for the future. Mistakes on the world's arms market spell enormous losses.
(Nikita Petrov is an expert on the Russian defense industry. This article is reprinted by permission of RIA Novosti. The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.)
Russia suspends fighter jet delivery to Algeria worth 1.5 bln usd - report
Sh!t hit the fan! Now it appears that Russi-Algerian arms deal is in complete shambles! Wonder what will happen to the Soviet era $4 billion loan Moscow wrote off to get the deal!RUSSIA (Thomson Financial) - Russia suspended delivery of a batch of its Sukhoi fighter jets to Algeria because they have not yet been paid for, Russian media reported Friday.
'Since Algeria has not fulfilled its financial commitments in the contract for the delivery of 28 SU-30 MKI aircraft, the delivery of a new batch has been suspended,' the Interfax news agency quoted a Russian arms industry source as saying.
The source said Russia had so far delivered six of the aircraft to Algeria, under a 1.5 bln usd deal signed in 2006. The suspended lot had been due for delivery this month.
Russia also supplies Sukhoi fighters to India and Malaysia.
The financial daily Kommersant said Algeria had frozen payments on all military contracts with Moscow after Algiers said last month it would return 15 Mig-29 fighter jets it bought from Russia, because of their poor quality.
The head of Russia's Federal Agency for Industry, Andrei Dutov, on Monday accused Algeria of cancelling an order of Migs for 'political' reasons.
contedicavour
New Member
This is a major failure for Russia's defence industry; especially as Dassault is ready to do crazy things to place some Rafale. Contrary to Libya though almost 100% of Algerian air force planes are former Soviet, so Russia may still have a chance of fixing the mess, may be by taking back the MIG29 and offering discounted new construction SU30s in exchange.Russia suspends fighter jet delivery to Algeria worth 1.5 bln usd - report
Sh!t hit the fan! Now it appears that Russi-Algerian arms deal is in complete shambles! Wonder what will happen to the Soviet era $4 billion loan Moscow wrote off to get the deal!
cheers
Considering Sukhoi has already delivered six Su-30MK to Algeria, should be interesting how this plays out.Russia suspends fighter jet delivery to Algeria worth 1.5 bln usd - report
Sh!t hit the fan! Now it appears that Russi-Algerian arms deal is in complete shambles! Wonder what will happen to the Soviet era $4 billion loan Moscow wrote off to get the deal!
Time
I think both sides made there mark in the sand but time doesn't favor Algeria because like contedicavour mention most of Algeria gear is Russian. Which means even the basic spare parts for a wide range of equipment could be held back and not delivered. I think the natural gas side of this issue will break first and then the military arms side will work itself out. It's a big arms package and nobody going to beat Russia's prices without making changes to the package.
I think both sides made there mark in the sand but time doesn't favor Algeria because like contedicavour mention most of Algeria gear is Russian. Which means even the basic spare parts for a wide range of equipment could be held back and not delivered. I think the natural gas side of this issue will break first and then the military arms side will work itself out. It's a big arms package and nobody going to beat Russia's prices without making changes to the package.
Atilla [TR]
New Member
If they do not like the MIG buy the Sukhoi. But I remember Russia gave Migs to hungary in place of dept they owed, and the Hungarians had to scrap half of them just to keep the other half slightly flight capable. But I think the F-4 is not the worlds largest distributer if MIG parts anymore the sky is.I think both sides made there mark in the sand but time doesn't favor Algeria because like contedicavour mention most of Algeria gear is Russian. Which means even the basic spare parts for a wide range of equipment could be held back and not delivered. I think the natural gas side of this issue will break first and then the military arms side will work itself out. It's a big arms package and nobody going to beat Russia's prices without making changes to the package.