Algeria to return 15 MiG fighters

[Tracer]

Not good news for the Russians.

Algeria to return 15 MiG fighters to Russia over inferior quality

Moscow, Feb 18: Algeria has decided to return to Russia 15 MiG fighters delivered in 2006-07, a leading Russian business daily reported today.

Quoting a source in the state-owned United Aircraft Building Corporation, Kommersant said the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport, the MiG Corporation, and the Algerian Air Force had signed an agreement on the return of the MiGs last week. The Russian Industry and Energy Ministry had confirmed the deal, it added.

The MiGs are to be returned within the next few months. However, the source said this did not mean the previous contract has now been torn up, and Russia would offer Algeria more advanced airplanes, MiG-29M2s or MiG-35s.

Rosoboronexport signed a 1.28 billion dollars contract for the delivery of 29 one-seat MiG-29SMT Fulcrum fighters and six two-seat MiG-29UB fighters in March 2006 as part of an eight billion dollar military-technical cooperation agreement with Algeria.

Deliveries were to be made from March 2007 until February 2008, but Algeria began refusing deliveries from May 2007, demanding that Russia take back the first 15 aircraft it had delivered, citing the ''inferior quality'' of certain components and units.

In October 2007, Algeria stopped payments on other military contracts pending the return of the MiGs.

Experts suggest Algeria may have opted instead for French Rafale fighters as France builds up its presence in the North African state.

 

[ROCK45]

More info

Was anybody able to find anything else on this beside the one or two articles:
This is one of them? http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080218/99490063.html

In business having this reach the press in the first place and then having publicly return is very bad. Because of that I get the hint of a political situation here more then flawed equipment but I maybe wrong. I searched but can't seem to find out what was wrong? Did the Algerian government make any announcement on this at all in the press? Did Russia's government make any announcement on there end stating what Algeria didn't like? This would have been a good sale for MiG Corporation to get, and according the the article they still have a chance. If anybody can shed a little light on the situation thanks in advance.

 

[Tracer]

MiG Denies Algeria Jets Deal in Trouble
By Max Delany
Staff Writer

Jetmaker MiG denied on Monday that Algeria was set to send back a recently delivered consignment of 15 fighter jets because of technical misgivings over the aircraft. The planes are part of a $8 billion arms deal signed by Russia and Algeria in March 2006 that saw approximately $4.7 billion of the North African state's Soviet-era debt wiped out. "The deal has not been broken," a MiG spokeswoman said. "We do not comment on any ongoing discussions."

Citing a source in the United Aircraft Corporation, Kommersant reported Monday that the Algerian Air Force last week agreed to return the planes. The deal was reportedly inked with state arms-exporter Rosoboronexport, the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation and MiG.

If confirmed, the return of the jets would be the first time that the country's military hardware has been returned over quality concerns. The report came as Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika touched down in Moscow on Monday for a two-day official visit. He was set to hold talks with President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday.

The Kremlin press office and the Algerian Foreign Ministry could not say what the discussions would cover, but an industry source told Interfax that Bouteflika would discuss the weapons deals during his visit. The 15 MiG-29 jets were the first of 36 aircraft delivered to Algeria as part of a consignment worth about $1.5 billion.

Algeria stopped taking delivery of the MiGs last year, after concerns were first raised over a consignment that arrived in late 2006, Kommersant Vlast reported last week. In March, Bouteflika sent a letter to Putin demanding that Russia resolve the problems with the MiGs, Vlast reported.

Although talks have been going for several months, no deal to return the jets had been signed, Interfax said Monday, citing another industry source. A spokesman for UAC on Monday refused to confirm that any agreement had been struck, saying the matter was not under its control. MiG has not yet been absorbed into the state umbrella company, he said.

A spokesman for the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation refused to comment ahead of any talks between the presidents. Rosoboronexport also refused to comment.

The MiG-29s could be switched for more modern MiG-35 fighters or for Sukhoi jets, Kommersant cited the UAC source as saying. As part of the March 2006 deal, Algeria agreed to buy 28 Su-30 fighters, Kommersant reported. A spokesman for Sukhoi refused to say whether the number could rise.

Analysts cast doubt, however, on the Algerian claims of technical problems, saying the moves could be the result of a struggle within the Algerian government or aggressive moves by foreign competitors, including France and China. Algeria may have found a better deal elsewhere or might be looking to get more modern Russian aircraft, said Andrew Brooke, an analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies.

While Russia's arms industry cannot offer discounts, China is willing to undercut its rivals to break into the valuable North African market, Brooke said.

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2008/02/19/041.html

 

[nevidimka]

If indeed this is true, n that ALgeris is not gona replace the jets with mor modern Mig 35's, it will struck a big blow to Mig's participation in India's MMRCA fighter contract.

 

[ROCK45]

Jetmaker MiG denied on Monday that

nevidimka
it will struck a big blow to Mig's participation in India's MMRCA fighter contract.

I was thinking the same when I first read the story but am hoping the Indian Mig-29K order maybe finished so functional Fulcrums could be rolled out for the public to see. I think MIG Corporation rep is on the line and more so upper management because this should have been fixed outside the press and done so quickly. I still think part of this is politics but for now it's a PR nightmare for MIG. Quickness and public resolve are needed lets see what upper management can do?

 

[Tracer]

What the Russians say:

Russia long insisted that the claims were ungrounded. “The bodies of the planes were produced in the 1990s, but that was stipulated in the contract, and everything inside them, all the equipment, was new,” a source at MiG said, adding that Rosoboronexport representatives demanded an explanation that could serve as the basis for breaking the contract. “Algerian representatives wrote a receipt in Russia and in
Algeria, then they began using those MiGs and only after that they made their claims,” a corporation spokesman said.

http://www.kommersant.com/p854040/military_hardware_foreign_relations/

Also of note:

Russia’s arms export agency Rosoboronexport has been accused of selling fighter aircraft that are “mutton dressed as lamb” to Algeria, Syria and Venezuela.

On July 25, 2006, President Hugo Chavez ordered 24 Sukhoi Su-30 MKVs for the Venezuelan Air Force (AMV), with an option on 12 more. Of these, 14 have now been delivered. But the AMV has discovered, to its dismay, that the Su-30MKVs so far delivered have come from batches that had previously been refused by the Chinese PLA General Staff. The AMV is demanding an explanation.

Syria, for its part, has ordered 14 MiG-29SMTs. New-build MiG-29SMTs are manufactured only at RSK MiG’s Voronin Production Centre. But it appears that the aircraft for the Syrian Air Force are coming in stead from the Sokol plant in Nizhny Novgorod, which has the capability only for modernisation of existing MiG-29s. The basic aircraft are therefore second-hand.

But, according to French newsletter TTU, it is Algeria which has been the hardest hit and which has reacted most strongly. The country has ordered 30 MiG-29SMTs and six two-seat MiG-29UBTs for its Air Force, plus a further 36 fighters on option.

And the Algerian Air Force discovered in summer 2007 that all its “new” MiG-29SMTs were coming from Sokol and were, in fact, based on 15 year-old airframes.

http://www.dapss.com/MPI/index.htm

 

[ROCK45]

Big claims

Those are some big claims against Russia aircraft industry I want to do some more searching but that's a good fine thanks.

 

[nevidimka]

Russia should have never sold new planes using old frames. They should know it could backfire.

 

[ROCK45]

French newsletter

But, according to French newsletter TTU, it is Algeria which has been the hardest hit

I'm not saying it isn't true what was reported but this seems to from a French newsletter. Can anybody confirm what was said about the Venezuela's Flankers from another source. Keep in mind the French really want to get a second chance at Algeria and it's a cut throat market. Why would the Venezuela Flanker issue pop up now?

I only heard two rumors about the Russia equipment sold to Venezuela.
Rumor #1 was Venezuela was looking into buying some French helicopters a few months back, nothing came from it.

Rumor #2 I heard there was some rust on the Flankers but the situation was fixed but nothing about rejected Chinese models.

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
Smile
I don't speak Algerian, Russia, or Spanish, but it seems other countries press should be covering this beside a French newsletter, if anybody comes across anything please post it, thanks

 

[eaf-f16]

Not good news for the Russians.

Algeria to return 15 MiG fighters to Russia over inferior quality

Moscow, Feb 18: Algeria has decided to return to Russia 15 MiG fighters delivered in 2006-07, a leading Russian business daily reported today.

Quoting a source in the state-owned United Aircraft Building Corporation, Kommersant said the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport, the MiG Corporation, and the Algerian Air Force had signed an agreement on the return of the MiGs last week. The Russian Industry and Energy Ministry had confirmed the deal, it added.

The MiGs are to be returned within the next few months. However, the source said this did not mean the previous contract has now been torn up, and Russia would offer Algeria more advanced airplanes, MiG-29M2s or MiG-35s.

Rosoboronexport signed a 1.28 billion dollars contract for the delivery of 29 one-seat MiG-29SMT Fulcrum fighters and six two-seat MiG-29UB fighters in March 2006 as part of an eight billion dollar military-technical cooperation agreement with Algeria.

Deliveries were to be made from March 2007 until February 2008, but Algeria began refusing deliveries from May 2007, demanding that Russia take back the first 15 aircraft it had delivered, citing the ''inferior quality'' of certain components and units.

In October 2007, Algeria stopped payments on other military contracts pending the return of the MiGs.

Experts suggest Algeria may have opted instead for French Rafale fighters as France builds up its presence in the North African state.

Kommersant is a BS newspaper. They are the same people who started the rumor about Iran buying the Su-30 and later on the J-10.

They are the same people who started the rumor that Syria had MiG-31's and MiG-29M2's and they are the same people who said Egypt signed a deal with Russia for the Tor-M1 and Buk-M1.

We all know none of the above had any basis in reality and were outright made up by this newspaper in particular.

I'm sure that this is just another round of BS by them. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

 

[tphuang]

I was always under the impression that Mig-29smt are upgraded/refurbished version of earlier Mig-29 models, so I'm not sure what the problem is here. But of course, I think the real problem is that Algeria just realized these Russian fighters are not any good. A little too late though.

 

[ROCK45]

Plays out

If this does play out and Russia loses the sale I wonder if the French can really land a Rafale sale? I'm not sure in China buys oil/gas from Algeria but if the FC-1 was a little further along I wonder if China could slip in? Keep the Flankers as your high end and use the FC-1 as long end, the Migs were going to used that way anyway. I guess time will tell but I just think something is missing here.

 

[nevidimka]

A source in Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) said the supply of more MiG jets was initially suspended due to Algeria’s claims to the quality of two training-and-combat MiG-29UB. “The FSMTC discussed the claims at its session in March, and worked out the recommendations for removing the problems. The problems were removed,” the source said. He added, however, that Algeria kept making groundless claims to MiG jets. “All aircrafts of the first supply were taken over by the customer’s representatives in Russia. After the jets were transported to Algeria, they were taken over by Algerian Air Force, put into operation, but then there appeared the claims,” said a source in MiG Corporation. “Algeria stopped financing the project. Consequently, the contract’s next stage has been suspended, while MiG and Russia on the whole are suffering losses.” Anyway, a source in the Russian president’s staff said that in August 2007, Algerian President Abdelaziz Bouteflika sent a letter to Vladimir Putin asking him to solve the issue of MiG jets’ quality.

Experts regard this and other similar scandals as consequences of the inner struggle among the Algerian authorities. Ruslan Pukhov, director of the Strategy and Technology Analysis Center, believes that Algeria’s political elite “consists of pro-Russia, pro-France, and pro-U.S. groupings that defend their partners’ interests”. “These clans counteract each other, winning in turns,” said Pukhov. The expert thinks the cooldown in Russia-Algeria relations fell in time with French President Nicolas Sarkozy’s drastic activation in the African direction. Among other things, he is actively promoting French fighter jets Rafale in northern Africa, which compete with Russian MiGs. In its turn, the U.S. lobbies its fighter jets F-16 in Algeria. Consequently (as of early January 2008), Russia has been considering whether to cancel the contract and to request Algeria to pay the forfeit to MiG Corporation. Anyway, Algeria does not exclude it might buy heavier fighter jets Su-30MKI(A) instead of MiG jets.

http://www.kommersant.com/p850612/r_1/Russias_defense_industry_is_being_reorganized_to_export_more/

 

[Atilla [TR]]

I always knew Russian tech was way behind in terms of microprocessors and chips, because U.S has AMD and Intel which are far ahead of the Russian counterparts, just computer is enough, for me if i was a General making an aircraft purchase.

 

[crobato]

I always knew Russian tech was way behind in terms of microprocessors and chips, because U.S has AMD and Intel which are far ahead of the Russian counterparts, just computer is enough, for me if i was a General making an aircraft purchase.

For export purposes, the Russian defense companies are free to use imported COTS components, but for domestic use, the system in question must always use domestically sourced or made components.

 

[dlhh]

test this post

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

test this post

Say what???

 

[Chrom]

Russia should have never sold new planes using old frames. They should know it could backfire.

The only problem - Mig-29SMT is by definition old airframe. New airframes are Mig-29Mx. Generally, i see nothing wrong with Mig-29SMT - great plane for low price and instant delivery.

 

[ROCK45]

SMT Question

Hi Chrom
Do you know I might be able to read anything in English about Yemen pilots or any pilots who have flown the early model or basic Fulcrum 9.12 and then the upgraded SMT? Pilots love talking about there fighters I would like to think something is out there to read. Aren't there Russian test pilots who flown both or trained personnel that might have gave a interview to other then Russian press? I want to learn more about this aircraft but seem to only find general stuff. If you can help thanks

I think most of this issue of the ''inferior quality'' is directly related to the natural gas contracts that's my two cents. We have a saying in the United States called "playing hard ball" this kind of looks like it.

Another question
If it took almost three years to get out the India K model Fulcrums do you think MIG Corporation can push out M type models in two years? Is there a true production line setup and running? I may be wrong but I always thought the K model Fulcrums for India 16/19 frames I think were custom jobs really and not made on your standard production line.

 

[Salty Dog]

What is going on with the Mig (Russian Aircraft Corporation) nowadays? Aside from the Mig-35 (which is just a Mig-29 upgrade), there are no new projects beyond the Mig-29/35 line.

Doesn't look as if any countries except India are looking at acquiring additional Mig-29/35.