Aircraft Prices

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rossfrb_1

Member
F-35 pricing

Saturday May 24 I was at a cafe and was reading from that day's Telegraph (Sydney version) I noticed an article by Ian McPhedran stating that the cost of the JSF for the RAAF was put at ~$58 million each, by Boeing. I have subsequently been unable to find the same article online, nor has any other newsagency (that I can see) run with the story. Which makes me wonder WTF is going on. Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere - I missed it. Mind you defencetalk seems to have been down an awful lot recently.

cheers
rb
 
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Sea Toby

New Member
Boeing doesn't make the F-35 Lightning IIs, Lockheed Martin does. Are you sure of the reporter's source? Did he quote old information? US dollars or Australian dollars?
 
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rossfrb_1

Member
Sea Toby said:
Boeing doesn't make the F-35 Lightning IIs, Lockheed Martin does. Are you sure of the reporter's source? Did he quote old information? US dollars or Australian dollars?
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Sorry brain fade on my part I meant LM not Boeing.
I presumed USD.
It was in 2008 dollars, with the expectation that by 2014 or thereabouts the price would be ~80 million.
The impression was that it was the latest information.
I didn't really have a good read of the article as I was in a hurry and thought that I would have a proper read of the article online later...
 
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kiddo123

New Member
Has anyone ever heard of a eight winged plane.....i could have sworn i've a picture of it when i was younger....
 
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Vivendi

Well-Known Member
rossfrb_1 said:
Sorry brain fade on my part I meant LM not Boeing.
I presumed USD.
It was in 2008 dollars, with the expectation that by 2014 or thereabouts the price would be ~80 million.
The impression was that it was the latest information.
I didn't really have a good read of the article as I was in a hurry and thought that I would have a proper read of the article online later...
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From (h)ttp://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23855599-662,00.htm :

Lockheed, which has 140,000 staff and annual sales of $40 billion, is reluctant to commit to a firm price for its wares.

So it was with some relief that by day's end the company had, for the first time, revealed a realistic figure on the fly-away price for Australia's new frontline air combat aircraft.

That $58.7 million will be for each of the first 368 foreign-bound fighters to roll off the line.

It was the price the Pentagon, which sells military gear to foreign countries, quoted to Norway as it decides between the JSF and other options, including the European-built Eurofighter and SAAB Gripen.
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(there is an error in the above article; Norway is currently considering only F-35 and Gripen, not Eurofighter)

I am a bit puzzled by this price, in the March 2008 GAO report

(h)ttp://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08388.pdf

they qoute unit cost estimates of US$ 112 million ("program acquisition", whatever that means?) and US$104 million (average procurement). This assumes 2,458 US F-35s. Of course the F35-B and C will be more expensive than the A's however the A should not be that far from the average given the higher number of A's sold?

The GAO report also indicates that there is a high risk that the development costs could increase further -- now, if this happens, and at the same time countries (including the US) order less than anticipated, how will LM be able to sell the first F-35s for a fly-away price of 58.7 million? It seems to me that they would lose a lot of money on those planes -- unless the upgrades become extremely expensive...

Perhaps I am missing something here... Somebody with more insights who care to comment?

V.
 
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ROCK45

New Member
AH-64D Block III

AH64mech may ask how did you get this price? I though AH-64's went for around mid to high $40s million per aircraft range?
 
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AH64mech

New Member
it was posted in the local paper a few days ago, as for the mid 40s, no, the alpha model apache went 8-10 million per acft before production ceased and the delta model the current acft in service is about 18 million per acft. as for my back ground i have been an apache mechanic for the last 10 years, that way you dont think im just blowing smoke.
 
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ROCK45

New Member
Apache Prices

Hi AH64mech
I did a little hunting around and found a article on the new Apache Block-III and found a price of $30 million per helicopter, but that's the latest and greatest so older models may be lower.

Article I found
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/07/gns_apache_072108/

I can't find it but I know I saw a article that Apache Low Bow the D model, if that's the latest type going for $47 million per. Follow up posters were saying you could be a used F-16 for less and so forth. Some country was pricing buying 20 or 30 of them and the prices came out to the above $47 mil. Doesn't the $18 mil you quoted seem low for the best attack helicopter in the world? I was wondering was the prices you quoted US Army prices broken down over very large orders?
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Vivendi said:
I am a bit puzzled by this price, in the March 2008 GAO report

(h)ttp://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08388.pdf

they qoute unit cost estimates of US$ 112 million ("program acquisition", whatever that means?) and US$104 million (average procurement). This assumes 2,458 US F-35s. Of course the F35-B and C will be more expensive than the A's however the A should not be that far from the average given the higher number of A's sold?

The GAO report also indicates that there is a high risk that the development costs could increase further -- now, if this happens, and at the same time countries (including the US) order less than anticipated, how will LM be able to sell the first F-35s for a fly-away price of 58.7 million? It seems to me that they would lose a lot of money on those planes -- unless the upgrades become extremely expensive...

Perhaps I am missing something here... Somebody with more insights who care to comment?

V.
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They're not saying they'll sell the first F-35s for USD58.7 million. They're saying that when production is running full-speed, initial glitches having been worked out & efficiencies of scale achieved, the price for each F-35A, aircraft only, excluding development & other fixed costs, excluding weapons, training, & all ancillary equipment & costs, should be USD58.7 mn.

"Program acquisition cost" is the total cost of all the aircraft the USA plans to buy, divided by the number. It includes development & all other fixed costs. Note that US GAO reports usually give two prices, one in prices of a particular year (2002, for the JSF, IIRC), the other in "then-year" prices. The latter includes money already spent at whatever prices prevailed when it was spent, & assumptions for the inflation rate for the duration of the project, & how much money will be spent in each year for the duration. Change either assumption, e.g. by delaying the purchase of some aircraft, & the "then-year" price will change.
 
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simdude97

New Member
swerve said:
They're not saying they'll sell the first F-35s for USD58.7 million. They're saying that when production is running full-speed, initial glitches having been worked out & efficiencies of scale achieved, the price for each F-35A, aircraft only, excluding development & other fixed costs, excluding weapons, training, & all ancillary equipment & costs, should be USD58.7 mn.
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The number includes development costs. It is in 2008 dollars and it is the average price for an F-35A. It is guaranteed export price by LockMart for the first 350+ (forget the exact number) export units. So with inflation and all figure about 80 mn when the time comes in 2015 on for each unit. Looking at the pricing history and production run of the F-16 program (to which this is similar) the pricing they are giving is about right.

The catch going forward is that LockMart has to get permission from Congress and the Air Force to sell the early production (not the LRIP birds) planes for the program average cost. This is going to be a no brainer so expect that to happen.
 
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Beatmaster

New Member
Damn these planes are not cheap.
But theoretical for example what will be the prize of one already produced older type of aircraft like the F-16 with all the latest weapons and other gadgets fully up to date?

And how long will this aircraft be able to perform overtime so i mean what is his lifespan?

The same question for the Euro fighter or jsf?

Because the prize is not only influenced by raw material costs, labor, study, and producing costs but durability is also a factor that makes the costs go sky hi.

Because let we say for a minute that a F-16 is 30 millions USD but the lifespan is only 6 years

Than a JSF that costs 80 millions USD can be cheaper on the long run if its lifespan is 20 years.


So in other words if you buy a aircraft that has a long lifespan it will also raise the prize and makes it probably not cheap but after 10 years it may become cheap afterall.
Specially when the aircraft is performing like the F-16/ F-15 and F-22 and many more very good aircraft that have seen service for a long time.

And while thinking about this if you look at the history and present day what aircaft is the most succesfull if it comes to prize, numbers produced, and options to upgrade it to your specific needs like weapons radar and other must have gatgets?

Because regardless of what aircraft you design and put into production only time will tell or this specific aircraft did perform as expected.
So if a aircraft is not performing to the level that it was build for than a aircraft can become more expensive than others that eventually did have a bigger prize tag.
 
METEORSWARM

METEORSWARM

New Member
Price aircraft

i+d/number aircrafts/gadchets

f-22 500 millions dolar/unit

jsf 110 millions dolar/unit clear no gadchets....less units producction day to day.......less units more cost

Efa(typhoon) 105 millions dolar/unit full gadchets fase2

F-16 block 60 105 millions dolar/unit
 
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lalitghag

New Member
F-22 Raptor Unit cost US$137.5 million
F-35 Lightning II Unit cost US$83 million
Typhoon Unit cost GB£68.9 million
F-16 Fighting Falcon Unit cost
F-16A/B: US$14.6 million (1998)[1]
F-16C/D: US$18.8 million (1998)
 
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dragonfire

New Member
I have been meaning to ask - does anyone know wht the cost would be to India if it was decided to procure the Super Viper - per fighter in Million USD - everyone keeps saying that the F-16 would be one of the cheaper ones, but am concerned about the royalty to be paid to UAE (as they paid for the development costs - 3 Billion USD) as well as the advanced Raytheon AESA radar
 
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