ADF General discussion thread

downunderblue

Active Member
We're getting increasingly closer to the 'Davidson window' of 2027. Our region is getting increasing more and more dangerous and the lack of government response is worrying.

This all comes relevant if you believe the 2027 is realistic. Under a Biden Presidency we had some certainty over a US response to Taiwan, which for me lowered the 2027 risk, but Trump I am not so sure. From an AU perspective I think we need to give some consideration and risk management planning on what happens if the US doesn't come to Taiwan's aid and becomes more isolationist (as the Peace President). I see disaster and eventual subjication to China where our way of life is seriously affected.

2027 is potentially a one in a lifetime opportunity for Xi, if he can mount a push on Taiwan not exposing the US. The likelihood of an military embargo scenario increases.

Our whole strategic focus is creating sufficient unified deterrent to disuade Xi from going to war. I fear that Trump's flexibility here completely undermined that deterrent strategy (as what deterrent is there if the US doesn't participate).

I used to do Intell work and found producing product at the time of considerable impact and change was very hard, as they pace of change was both overwhelming as well as produced more of a fearful reactionary analysis. You need cool minds for that work. I have watched this all unpack and whilst I still think I have a cool mind, the likelihood of a 2027 economic/ military scenario for me has increased. This is a legacy project for the CCP and particularly XI (who is 72 this year). The window of greatest opportunity is within a Trump Presidency. 2027 is realistic and gained much greater certainty since Biden left.

If 2027 happens, does this make us at 1937 again? Last's nights budget frustrated me. You wouldn't be too worried about the ego of building a new stadium for the 2032 Olympic Games if you truly believed 2027 was possible, yet here we are.

Trump is unpredictable and regionally both Japan and Australia need certainty. If I was the PM I would completely ignore what all the administration officials says and pin Trump down. Organise a 1-1 with Ishiba, to plan a serious and urgent trilateral with Trump. Words are cheap and we need to provide certainty (likely public, something we can hold him to and not a Kiribilli agreement) that the US will intervene to any act of coercion or force against Taiwan, or if he can't/ wont alternatively get him to provide assistance to develop nuclear programs for both Japan and us. If he won't back us, then he needs to help us materially to stand on our own. If neither is available we need to secretly move away from the US and sit down with Japan about how we can help secure ourselves.

I don't see an isolationist stance helping the US at all. Once Taiwan is taken then the PLA moves outside first island chain containment and will be sailing CV TF groups off Pearl and San Diego etc, I don't know if Trump is aware of it (logically he could follow the economic issues) but if they don't intervene, their own continental security will be affected and undermined. Hopefully he will see the point as he does seem to listen (particularly to strength).

Eitherway, since January the risk of 2027 becoming a reality has increased significantly, and all our leaders are worried about are being elected through handouts and talk of future prosperity, Can they explain what sort of prosperity would exist if we are in a position of continual coercion by the CCP? Our sovereignty would be massively affected and we would end up completely submissive and for me, lost. So much for the lucky country.
 
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Wombat000

Well-Known Member
Agree.
Disturbingly, the US has demonstrated that it has no integrity.
What the US eventually does is a mystery that only time will tell, and sadly it makes the probability of opportunistic adventurism much more likely.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
We're getting increasingly closer to the 'Davidson window' of 2027. Our region is getting increasing more and more dangerous and the lack of government response is worrying.

This all comes relevant if you believe the 2027 is realistic. Under a Biden Presidency we had some certainty over a US response to Taiwan, which for me lowered the 2027 risk, but Trump I am not so sure. From an AU perspective I think we need to give some consideration and risk management planning on what happens if the US doesn't come to Taiwan's aid and becomes more isolationist (as the Peace President). I see disaster and eventual subjication to China where our way of life is seriously affected.

2027 is potentially a one in a lifetime opportunity for Xi, if he can mount a push on Taiwan not exposing the US. The likelihood of an military embargo scenario increases.

Our whole strategic focus is creating sufficient unified deterrent to disuade Xi from going to war. I fear that Trump's flexibility here completely undermined that deterrent strategy (as what deterrent is there if the US doesn't participate).

I used to do Intell work and found producing product at the time of considerable impact and change was very hard, as they pace of change was both overwhelming as well as produced more of a fearful reactionary analysis. You need cool minds for that work. I have watched this all unpack and whilst I still think I have a cool mind, the likelihood of a 2027 economic/ military scenario for me has increased. This is a legacy project for the CCP and particularly XI (who is 72 this year). The window of greatest opportunity is within a Trump Presidency. 2027 is realistic and gained much greater certainty since Biden left.

If 2027 happens, does this make us at 1937 again? Last's nights budget frustrated me. You wouldn't be too worried about the ego of building a new stadium for the 2032 Olympic Games if you truly believed 2027 was possible, yet here we are.

Trump is unpredictable and regionally both Japan and Australia need certainty. If I was the PM I would completely ignore what all the administration officials says and pin Trump down. Organise a 1-1 with Ishiba, to plan a serious and urgent trilateral with Trump. Words are cheap and we need to provide certainty (likely public, something we can hold him to and not a Kiribilli agreement) that the US will intervene to any act of coercion or force against Taiwan, or if he can't/ wont alternatively get him to provide assistance to develop nuclear programs for both Japan and us. If he won't back us, then he needs to help us materially to stand on our own. If neither is available we need to secretly move away from the US and sit down with Japan about how we can help secure ourselves.

I don't see an isolationist stance helping the US at all. Once Taiwan is taken then the PLA moves outside first island chain containment and will be sailing CV TF groups off Pearl and San Diego etc, I don't know if Trump is aware of it (logically he could follow the economic issues) but if they don't intervene, their own continental security will be affected and undermined. Hopefully he will see the point as he does seem to listen (particularly to strength).

Eitherway, since January the risk of 2027 becoming a reality has increased significantly, and all our leaders are worried about are being elected through handouts and talk of future prosperity, Can they explain what sort of prosperity would exist if we are in a position of continual coercion by the CCP? Our sovereignty would be massively affected and we would end up completely submissive and for me, lost. So much for the lucky country.
Just a one percent increase in defence spending. You have to wonder if they are taking this seriously. Yep XI is 72. Might not be many things much more dangerous than an old man wanting to fulfill their destiny and we currently have Trump, Putin and XI all in their 70s.
 

downunderblue

Active Member
Agree.
Disturbingly, the US has demonstrated that it has no integrity.
What the US eventually does is a mystery that only time will tell, and sadly it makes the probability of opportunistic adventurism much more likely.
Honestly, I don't think its beneficial to talk about integrity or the lack of. We're also talking about one person in 340 million. Overall we share a personal, cultural and societal relationship of real history, substance and respect (and integrity). The thoughts and motivations of one person (whatever they may or may not be) does not define or change that.

I do understand why he does some of the things he does but their is ambiguity and uncertainty that needs to be made certain.

When RFK was finally confirmed as SecHealth, he told Trump: "I genuinely believe that you are a pivotal historical figure, and you are going to transform this country at a time when we see all of the indicia of democracy now in tatters in our country ... We need a revolutionary figure, and you are that figure".

A pivotal historical figure indeed.
 

downunderblue

Active Member
I could have put this in the NZDF forum but thought that beyond the obvious jab, it relates more to Australia than the Kiwis

"In March the Chinese “research ship” Tan Suo Yi Hao worked with New Zealand scientists to send a miniature submarine 6km down to the bottom of the Pusegur Trench, collecting samples from the seabed.

“I really hope they come back and look at the trenches again. There’s always more questions,” a happy Kiwi scientist enthused.

There are few creatures on earth more clueless than New Zealand scientists when it comes to defence and security".


 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
I could have put this in the NZDF forum but thought that beyond the obvious jab, it relates more to Australia than the Kiwis

"In March the Chinese “research ship” Tan Suo Yi Hao worked with New Zealand scientists to send a miniature submarine 6km down to the bottom of the Pusegur Trench, collecting samples from the seabed.

“I really hope they come back and look at the trenches again. There’s always more questions,” a happy Kiwi scientist enthused.

There are few creatures on earth more clueless than New Zealand scientists when it comes to defence and security".


It's been reported here that the vessel was exploring the Puysegur Trench (to the south of NZ) which is highly seismically active and connects to NZ's South Island Alpine Fault (which has a probability of a magnitude 8+ earthquake within the next 50 years). Media report that 68 scientists were on board from China, New Zealand, Malaysia, Denmark, Germany, France, Brazil and India. Not clear if NZ waters (with a "tour" of Australian waters thrown in) was the main destination or whether other destinations were also part of the voyage?


Looks like vessel then headed towards Australian waters much to the annoyance of the Australian Government. So firstly, could this be considered yet another provocation by the CCP?

Secondly would ADF assets have been tracking the vessel? Should they be expecting more of these shenanigans and will this then further tie up ADF (and NZDF) assets on monitoring tasks?


I presume the NZG didn't know the vessel would then make the diversion so didn't alert the Aus Gov (or maybe they did when it was realised the vessel was heading westwards)? If so it might be a wake up call to both nations to better collaborate when it comes to tracking "peaceful" scientific research vessels transiting the Tasman Sea, and that it is conveyed back to the CCP Govt to better explain their intentions first and to stick to the plan. Or simply deny scientific research vessels from now on (has it come to this - or are we not there yet, or would that even be practical considering such vessels could simply operate outside of the EEZ as it isn't illegal)? Interesting times ...
 
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downunderblue

Active Member
We're in an election campaign where NS is a factor, so the Australian reaction should be assessed against that backdrop,

FWIW I'd just love for a balloon now to fly over us ...
 
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