ADF General discussion thread

[StingrayOZ]

Some interesting analysis. Im not sure I agree with all of the outcomes or all of the methods but its comprehensive and interesting.

Highlights maybe South Korea, Singapore and Australia should perhaps operate together. In real terms Australia's military power has declined.

Some asian nations like South Korea and Japan will face significant working population declines by 2050.
Australia could very well possibly over take South Korea in total working age population by 2060. Freaky..

On Melissa Price.. Good to hear confirmation that the government still intends to build subs here. IMO it is in the interest of AUKUS for that to happen. Not just about jobs, but for real strategic reasons.

 

[oldsig127]

On Melissa Price.. Good to hear confirmation that the government still intends to build subs here. IMO it is in the interest of AUKUS for that to happen. Not just about jobs, but for real strategic reasons.

Not sure i recall anyone in Govt or Defence ever saying that not building here was even under consideration.

More interesting is the Melissa Price release, particularly the bit about government funding training and education for shipbuilding workers in a range of areas including nuclear...an area we will surely need bodies

oldsig

 

[StingrayOZ]

Not sure i recall anyone in Govt or Defence ever saying that not building here was even under consideration.

No but I got very annoyed with a particular high profile columnist... that did a great job of trying to destroy trust in a certain political party.

Pay South Australia not to build the nuclear submarines

It would be cheaper and quicker to buy the AUKUS subs from the US and compensate SA with $10 billion package focused on the net zero energy transition.

www.afr.com

Again always focusing on the acquisition, never on the sustainment or upgrading. Maybe politicians believe nuclear submarines don't require any maintenance? Also the current largest hurdle is crewing it.. There are articles claiming much the same, but downer is liberal party for life.

We will need education not just for ship builders. But for the crew. Again its one of the interdependent things. You can solve both problems at once. The skill and talent to build the things has a high level of commonality with the skills to operate said machines. Both sides will need to understand and work together on maintenance. I get worried that it is seen as a south Australian only issue. Like all the builders and sailors will all come from Adelaide CBD. Certainly it needs to be an epicenter, cast a wider net. Its about creating an ecosystem nationally.

People seemed to have forgot that Collins was actually a national program. With SME around the country being involved as no one state had enough talent pool to do everything. You need to upskill a lot about what is happening in those other areas. Technology and knowledge from one program can flow through to other programs.

Eg. We make better steel for submarines, the knowledge and expertise about steel can be applied other defence projects. If we want to embed people in the US and UK programs, and backport advancements into our program then it needs to be understood as a national program.

I am just annoyed there are people, people who should know better, that see the whole submarine thing as a one off transactional deal. Cars don't even work like that. You grey import some car that wasn't sold here and try to operate it with no spares, servicing or logistics. Defence has lots of examples of platforms that become almost impossible to operate once their logistics support runs out.

 

[oldsig127]

(Delete duplicate post)

Oldsig

 

[oldsig127]

We will need education not just for ship builders. But for the crew.

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote. However the article quoted is about what to do to retain shipbuilders left without work on the abandoned Attack Class project. In that context, the article was worth reading, despite not covering related issues.

oldsig

 

[Rock the kasbah]

I work for a living mate aka taxpayer
Reckon if the defence department can't organise that S666 we need to finnd others that may be able to do the job

 

[ngatimozart]

I work for a living mate aka taxpayer
Reckon if the defence department can't organise that S666 we need to finnd others that may be able to do the job

There are those on here who have blue tags which mean that they are Defence Professionals. Some even know more than they can let on because of the nature of their employment. Some blue tags on here are current or ex submariners who just happen to know what they are talking about. Submariners are known as the silent service for more than one reason. Some others work involves them knowing far more than they can say in an open forum. We use a catchall term OPSEC for that and it's something that we take very seriously.

This is an international forum not an Australian centric one. If you want to spit the dummy that's fine, but you go elsewhere and do it because toddlers perform in political circles where they throw tanties. We don't care what you do for a crust - that's your business not the worlds. If you want to learn and contribute meaningfully you are more than welcome to stay, but we do have standards and they are in our rules which you are required to read.

 

[Rock the kasbah]

Thanks for the green
Point taken

 

[StingrayOZ]

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote. However the article quoted is about what to do to retain shipbuilders left without work on the abandoned Attack Class project. In that context, the article was worth reading, despite not covering related issues.

Im not being critical of the release that Melissa Price made.
My venting was for Downers AFR thing.

Builders have to be first priority. Of course. There is a very real need now to fix a right now problem with the attack not going ahead.

There are a few bits that gave me a shiver.. "The Australian government has partnered with ASC to implement the new “Sovereign Shipbuilding Talent Pool” to redeploy existing shipbuilding workers from Naval Group Australia and Lockheed Martin Australia directly impacted by the Attack-class decision." Does that mean they are also stopping work on the combat system. Because that is banana's if that's the case. As collins still uses that combat system, the Americans still use that combat system, it could be fitted to the Astute, it makes no sense to stop work on that.

But it is possible there are a few contractors through LM that now no longer have any work, such as those designing data looms and wiring for the attack. In fact I am sure that is what she is referring to. But in the void, messages can be misinterpreted.

This talent pool shouldn't be wasted, push them onto the LOTE for collins. I know there are conversations about pre building whole modules for the Collins LOTE. There are also other defence projects that could perhaps be kicked along. Industry doesn't live in boxes, work is work.

And the Small and medium businesses are desperate for news.

 

[Rock the kasbah]

Defence blunders beg question - can Australia REALLY protect itself?

Australia's dumping of a fleet of military helicopters adds to a line of expensive defence backflips, leaving people wondering whether the country is able to defend itself in a military crisis.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Looks like the poms are trying to take everyone's mind off the ajax issues.
Decent read with cool photos

 

[ASSAIL]

Defence blunders beg question - can Australia REALLY protect itself?

Australia's dumping of a fleet of military helicopters adds to a line of expensive defence backflips, leaving people wondering whether the country is able to defend itself in a military crisis.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Looks like the poms are trying to take everyone's mind off the ajax issues.
Decent read with cool photos

Most of it is drivel with little or no understanding of the issues involved.
Quoting Rex Patrick as an authoritative source defines the article.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I see Australia just announce a defence deal with South Korea.

Australia signs historic billion-dollar military deal with South Korea

The federal government finalises a $1 billion contract with South Korean defence giant Hanwha, making it Australia's largest military deal with an Asian nation.

www.abc.net.au

Combined with the presidential visit.

South Korean president's Australian visit vital for bilateral ties: defence minister

Defence Minister Peter Dutton says South Korean President Moon Jae-in's visit to Australia comes at an important time for the two countries.

www.sbs.com.au

 

[spoz]

Most of it is drivel with little or no understanding of the issues involved.
Quoting Rex Patrick as an authoritative source defines the article.

And with a large number of errors of fact. Sydney delivered in 2022? I wonder which ship it was that was on the US West Coast earlier this year then. Rex Patrick may have made PO, I don't know, but he certainly wasn't a "naval officer". And the thing about the projects of concern list - it attracts management attention to fix problems, and projects, such as the DDGs, do come it when they improve. One could also point out the Brit problems with both Astute and T45 programs if one wanted to be petty, which of course I don't.

What the article actually proves, apart from the fact the the Daily Mail should be concentrating on UK not Australian defence issue (wonder who they think their audience for this will be), is that the Brit gutter press is no better informed than its Australian counterpart.

 

[swerve]

The Daily Fail isn't necessarily ill informed so much as not interested in checking facts. They might not fit the story.

 

[ngatimozart]

The Daily Fail isn't necessarily ill informed so much as not interested in checking facts. They might not fit the story.

Yes facts can be so inconvenient for certain media outlets and pollies.

 

[Rock the kasbah]

My apologies all
The boys at the pub have asked me about the ADF land forces WRT whether it's an army or division or?????
I tried Google but to be honest I got lost in the algebra of military terms etc.
I noticed we have lancers though wtf ?

 

[Stampede]

My apologies all
The boys at the pub have asked me about the ADF land forces WRT whether it's an army or division or?????
I tried Google but to be honest I got lost in the algebra of military terms etc.
I noticed we have lancers though wtf ?

Looks like an opportunity if the beers flowing.

Tell them all the traditional stuff is history and that we have a secret project to develop a special outer planet space division of infantry that will descend from above to reek havoc on the unexpected below

All very hush, hush of course and cannot go into details.


Top secret and all


Regards S

 

[oldsig127]

got lost in the algebra of military terms etc.
I noticed we have lancers though wtf ?

And Light Horse, and Cavalry. Doesn't everyone?

The question about terms needs long answers. An Army can be a few hundred, or tens of thousands strong. And so on

oldsig

 

[Takao]

My apologies all
The boys at the pub have asked me about the ADF land forces WRT whether it's an army or division or?????
I tried Google but to be honest I got lost in the algebra of military terms etc.
I noticed we have lancers though wtf ?

As simply as possible...

The Land Force is not the Army, it's two different things. Hence why you'll see Army and Land not used interchangeably in Department documents, but rather specifically. The majority of Land Forces are indeed Army, but it also includes things like the RAAF's Air Defence Guards. Also, most logistics is land based (airfields, fuel farms, factories, dockyards, etc).

Really broad rule of thumb is multiple Brigades = Division, multiple Divisions = Corps, multiple Corps = Army. Note here that Corps is the formation size, not the 'trade' that each Army member belongs too....

For the Australian Army, we have one fighting Division HQ and one administrative Division HQ. The former, 1 Div, will provide the 2-star commander for a deployed element (you'll also see this as a Joint Task Force, or JTF). Under their command will be multiple Brigade HQ's (or RAN/RAAF equal) and under each of those Brigade HQ will be 2 - 5 Battlegroups, command, fires, and logistic elements. Some key bits, like helo's or long range rockets, may be held by the Div HQ, without the Bde in-between.

Technically, on paper, the ADF could put a Division in the field. It would be skint on logistics, armour, and engineering, could probably be no more than weeks viable, and would be a one shot. But it could be done. Recently though, we have aimed to have a deployable Brigade - so call it 4 - 5000 people that is reasonably self sufficient and capable of any battlefield task.

Does that help?

 

[Rock the kasbah]

As simply as possible...

The Land Force is not the Army, it's two different things. Hence why you'll see Army and Land not used interchangeably in Department documents, but rather specifically. The majority of Land Forces are indeed Army, but it also includes things like the RAAF's Air Defence Guards. Also, most logistics is land based (airfields, fuel farms, factories, dockyards, etc).

Really broad rule of thumb is multiple Brigades = Division, multiple Divisions = Corps, multiple Corps = Army. Note here that Corps is the formation size, not the 'trade' that each Army member belongs too....

For the Australian Army, we have one fighting Division HQ and one administrative Division HQ. The former, 1 Div, will provide the 2-star commander for a deployed element (you'll also see this as a Joint Task Force, or JTF). Under their command will be multiple Brigade HQ's (or RAN/RAAF equal) and under each of those Brigade HQ will be 2 - 5 Battlegroups, command, fires, and logistic elements. Some key bits, like helo's or long range rockets, may be held by the Div HQ, without the Bde in-between.

Technically, on paper, the ADF could put a Division in the field. It would be skint on logistics, armour, and engineering, could probably be no more than weeks viable, and would be a one shot. But it could be done. Recently though, we have aimed to have a deployable Brigade - so call it 4 - 5000 people that is reasonably self sufficient and capable of any battlefield task.

Does that help?

Really appreciate that thanks