ADF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

I've been rereading some of the stuff from late last year.
Why we need a radically new defence policy | The Strategist
Why Australia Needs a Radically New Defence Policy

I think the direction they are pointing is right. We are running out of time to look at new types of equipment that aren't already in the pipeline.

We should be looking at maximizing what we already have in that pipeline.

• Future subs - Vertical launch tubes like the virginia's new block. Able to launch 7 tomahawks, NSM or perhaps 3 larger strike missiles, or UAV's etc, from each hatch, and 4 hatches.
• Future frigates - Maximizing sensors, weapons and capabilities. More vls, better and more capable missiles, JSM/NSM, LRASM, Sm-6, etc.
• F-35 - 4th squadron, LRASM, JSM, other enablers, maybe more p8, maybe a small fleet of g550 aew or more wedgetails, refuelers, etc.
• Army - Land 400, additional tanks, tigers, chinooks, Taipans etc.

Any thing that is further than 10 years out might as well be on the otherside of the moon.

What you suggest makes sense. Build on what you have now and what you already have planned.

RAAF I would forego the G550 AEW, instead acquiring more Wedgetails because you aren't introducing a new type into the fleet and you already have a world beater in the Wedgetail so acquiring more Wedgetails is really a no brainer. Boeing will be building the RAF ones soon, so tack some more on to those ones - cheaper by the dozen. Aren't you getting some G550s for the airborne secret squirrels? I'd suggest adding to that fleet.​

Army With LAND 400 I would suggest a VSHORAD by giving the vehicles AAA capability which can be done through the sighting system and a MANPAD such as Stinger or Mistral that can be fitted to the turret.

RAN As suggested with 3 more FFG hulls.
​

Yes I know, it all costs money, but it is a quick, logical and practical way of building up your forces within 10 years. The only problem I foresee is with the subs in that 10 year period.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Wedgetails are big and expensive, I was thinking the G550 was cheaper, quick check of italys bid and Skorea deal, that probably isn't the case. Another 4-6 I think would be ideal and would see us field and sustain significant capability.


As for the ship building

By 2030 we should have the first future sub in service and some more in the pipe, up to maybe 2 or 3 in the water getting worked up. . Given that can't be accelerated, we have to look at collins, perhaps an east sub base, a northern pacific sub base, new weapons and systems.

The future frigates won't all be delivered by 2030. So additional ships won't be possible until after the future surface combatants starts and we can look at holding onto the awd a bit longer.

A decade seems like a long time. But many acquisitions would be hard to do outside what is already planned.

If there is a high intensity peer skirmish, then there is also the question of what happens afterwards.

Australia will get its last currently ordered F-35 by 2023. So it is probably useful now to talk about a 4th squadron.

 

[Takao]

Army With LAND 400 I would suggest a VSHORAD by giving the vehicles AAA capability which can be done through the sighting system and a MANPAD such as Stinger or Mistral that can be fitted to the turret.

No need for a MANPAD. Instead, ensure that the systems on both Boxer and IFV are capable of interfacing with the IAMD network. Now you have multiple 30 mm cannon that can provide air defence. The missile on the turret can remain an ATGM.

Faster than a MANPAD, harder to dodge, cheaper and able to carry many more reloads.

Over to you LC3 Program.....

 

[hairyman]

Does the Wedgetail and the G550 have the role within the RAAF?

 

[t68]

Does the Wedgetail and the G550 have the role within the RAAF?

In what what do you mean?

As far as I know the 550 are to be special ISR bird for signal intelligence, Wedgetail would have a similar capacity I’m sure but to what extant they differ you would have to be on the inside to know that.

 

[Todjaeger]

In what what do you mean?

As far as I know the 550 are to be special ISR bird for signal intelligence, Wedgetail would have a similar capacity I’m sure but to what extant they differ you would have to be on the inside to know that.

Actually I would imagine that the capabilities of the two aircraft are quite a bit different, since they have some rather different roles, at least to the extent of what I believe the G550's are for.

The Wedgetail for instance, is an AEW&C aircraft, fulfilling a role similar to that of the E-2 Hawkeye and E-3 Sentry aircraft. As a result, there is going to be quite a bit of RF energy radiating from an operating Wedgetail between the radar and comms signals being broadcast. The value of having an overhead sensing platform to monitor the airspace (and to a lesser extent the ground and sea) over a broad area should be readily apparent, but for those who are unaware, consider reading up on the RAAF Wedgetail deployment to the Mideast as part of Operation Okra.

Now the G550's are to be some sort of EW/ELINT/SIGINT aircraft I believe, with a role or roles along the lines of those performed by the USN's EP-3 Aries II signals recon aircraft, or USAF RC-135 Rivet Joint recon aircraft, although there could also be some electronic attack capabilities like are believed to be fielded aboard EC-130H Compass Call aircraft. Honestly it is and would be hard to tell, given how tightly lipped people get about EW/signals, especially with some of the more 'secret squirrel' capabilities. In a nutshell though the two activities are quite different and are more complimentary to one another, rather than providing analogous capabilities to one another.

 

[hairyman]

Arent the G550 to replace the Orions that were fitted out fir that role?

 

[StingrayOZ]

I think its confusing because Israel fits their G550 as a AEW&C platform.

IAI EL/W-2085 - Wikipedia

The Australian aircraft have a specific and different mission. It uses some of the fit out from the Israeli aircraft, but it is not a AEW platform, Australia has the Wedgetails for that task. A much bigger plane with much more powerful gear, suitable for Australia's area of operations.

 

[ngatimozart]

Not aimed at anyone in particular.

One thing that really does annoy Kiwi & Aussie DEFPRO's on here are northern hemisphere posters pontificating on what Australia & NZ should be doing / not doing defence wise, when these posters have never been here and / or do not understand the areas of interest that our two countries have. They don't comprehend the distances involved nor the fact that the Australian & NZ areas of interest, both strategic and economic are the Indo Pacific, the Antarctic and all the areas in between. They also don't appear to understand the politics, cultures or histories of both of our countries. Just because you may have read an article or two doesn't mean that you necessarily understand how or why we do things, because whilst we conform to northern hemisphere western norms in many ways, we definitely don't conform in just as many ways.

 

[Takao]

Not aimed at anyone in particular.

One thing that really does annoy Kiwi & Aussie DEFPRO's on here are northern hemisphere posters pontificating on what Australia & NZ should be doing / not doing defence wise, when these posters have never been here and / or do not understand the areas of interest that our two countries have. They don't comprehend the distances involved nor the fact that the Australian & NZ areas of interest, both strategic and economic are the Indo Pacific, the Antarctic and all the areas in between. They also don't appear to understand the politics, cultures or histories of both of our countries. Just because you may have read an article or two doesn't mean that you necessarily understand how or why we do things, because whilst we conform to northern hemisphere western norms in many ways, we definitely don't conform in just as many ways.

I remember having to draw pictures to explain why a truck couldn't overnight from Brisbane to Darwin to one of our Northern OEMs!

"It's Barcelona to Moscow."
"Oh....."
"And there is less than a dozen towns along the way (defining town loosely)"
"Oh....."

Pause

"But it's just two major cities apart. Why does it take so long"
"Sigh..."

 

[Volkodav]

I remember having to draw pictures to explain why a truck couldn't overnight from Brisbane to Darwin to one of our Northern OEMs!

"It's Barcelona to Moscow."
"Oh....."
"And there is less than a dozen towns along the way (defining town loosely)"
"Oh....."

Pause

"But it's just two major cities apart. Why does it take so long"
"Sigh..."

When I was at school an exchange students parents flew in for a week to visit. They planned to hire a car spend a couple of days visiting the tourist sites, The Great Barrier Reef, Kakadu, Uluru and maybe even catch a ferry to Tasmania.

Ive done Darwin / Adelaide in two days, the usual is three but I know a few who take five or six. Uluru is a two to three day venture from Alice (assuming you want a day there). Most people have no idea of the distances involved,let alone the travel time.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

You all only think you live with distance as a challenge.

Victoria BC to St. John’s Newfoundland. One country, two ferries 7000 km.

Get on with the real discussion.

 

[ngatimozart]

You all only think you live with distance as a challenge.

Victoria BC to St. John’s Newfoundland. One country, two ferries 7000 km.

Get on with the real discussion.

Regarding your last sentence. Are you a Mod or senior member? NO, so dial back the attitude.

 

[Todjaeger]

You all only think you live with distance as a challenge.

Victoria BC to St. John’s Newfoundland. One country, two ferries 7000 km.

Get on with the real discussion.

Actually the distances are a very real issue and consideration when discussing Australian and New Zealand defences. When Ngatimozart and I use the phrase, "the tyranny of distance," is it not just to be cute or funny.

The city of Darwin, capital of the Northern Territories, is the largest city in northern Australia with a population of ~150k. It is also roughly (within ~200 km) the same distance from Darwin to the Indonesian capital of Jakarta, as it is to Adelaide, Perth, or Brisbane, which are the closest Australian state capitals.

In fact, the majority of Australia's population live on the east/southeast coast, with another population centre on the west around Perth. In that regard the population dispersal is not all that unlike Canada's, which despite there being vast land, 90+% lives within ~160 km of the US-Canadian border, and IIRC something like 99% lives within ~300 km of the US-Canadian border. For many of the communities along Australia's northern coast, commodities have to be shipped or barged in, as the road links are problematic and rail links (at least to the outside or rest of Australia) do not exist. Looking at this Australian railway map, one can see that moving goods and people around to different regions of Australia could be difficult, especially if something needed to be moved to (or recovered from) an area north of Perth and west of Darwin. This means redeploying troops and then providing logistical support is a very real issue. As is any notion of attempting to maintain a base with a sizable force permanently stationed, since what population centres are in the northern portions of WA, NT, or QLD tend to be rather small which means limited existing housing, education and work opportunities for the dependents/families of ADF personnel.

These are difficulties which can be overcome, but they still need to be accounted for and dealt with.

 

[t68]

Yep Perth is closer to Singapore than Sydney,

I learnt that useless fact by watching that slow train on the SBS the other night the Indian Pacific

 

[ngatimozart]

Yep Perth is closer to Singapore than Sydney,

I learnt that useless fact by watching that slow train on the SBS the other night the Indian Pacific

Not as "slow" as the Trans Siberian from Vladivostok to Moscow. One train journey that I wouldn't mind doing because it would be an adventure. I think it takes six days and crosses about 5 time zones.

Actually the distances are a very real issue and consideration when discussing Australian and New Zealand defences. When Ngatimozart and I use the phrase, "the tyranny of distance," is it not just to be cute or funny.

I can't remember who coined the phrase "the tyranny of distance", but it is an extremely apt description of both NZ and Australia for different reasons. Australia, because of it's size and it's vast empty interior; empty in the aspect of both human population and human infrastructure. NZ, because it is the most geographically isolated nation on the planet. Those two "extremes" make us ANZACs what we are today.

 

[John Fedup]

You all only think you live with distance as a challenge.

Victoria BC to St. John’s Newfoundland. One country, two ferries 7000 km.

Get on with the real discussion.

.....and one fairy running the country.

 

[Volkodav]

Not as "slow" as the Trans Siberian from Vladivostok to Moscow. One train journey that I wouldn't mind doing because it would be an adventure. I think it takes six days and crosses about 5 time zones.

I can't remember who coined the phrase "the tyranny of distance", but it is an extremely apt description of both NZ and Australia for different reasons. Australia, because of it's size and it's vast empty interior; empty in the aspect of both human population and human infrastructure. NZ, because it is the most geographically isolated nation on the planet. Those two "extremes" make us ANZACs what we are today.

I believe it was Geoffrey Blainey, it was the title of his best known book.

 

[t68]

In light of the Governments announcement of a Pacific relief ship, this article from Save the Royal Navy in regards to a hospital ship gives us some insight that the government could in theory look to do.

The plan for a British hospital ship gains political support

 

[ngatimozart]

In light of the Governments announcement of a Pacific relief ship, this article from Save the Royal Navy in regards to a hospital ship gives us some insight that the government could in theory look to do.

The plan for a British hospital ship gains political support

I think that a hospital ship is a narrowly focused platform. Whereas an "aid ship", as discussed in the article, covers a far wider range of roles, plus it could be configured for a medical role when not attending disasters.