Basically, BMP-3 cant swim with add-on ERA or aplique armor. But there are add-on balloons which can keep BMP-3 swimming if it is really needed.
415 BMP-3 and 35-50 BMP-3F for GREECE
- Thread starter Petros
- Start date
We talked about the Greek tests in the thread anout the Leo II A5/A6 upgrade.
The round (one of over 30 rounds) hit the armor on the right turret front penetrated the add-on armor and than entered the turret through a weak point were the GPS had been before.
I told you about that there is a ballistic hole which is much smaller than one may think, due to a big armor block behind the former optic but the channel for the cables and optical connections still remains a weakpoint.
Penetration there can only be achieved within a very limited angle. One has to literally aim for this point from a close distance or have very bad luck.
The problem has been adressed for some time now but Greece still refuses to pay.
Our chancellor has adressed the KMW problem, as well as the HDW problem, already twice and is planning to do it again. She would not interfere if it was just bad behaviour of KMW and HDW...
Interesting to see that none of the other customers of Leo IIs with KWS-II add-on armor had the same problems in the past...
The same goes for the SK U214s.
So far I think that if this unlucky (Or specially aimed for) shot which entered the Leo II is the only on,e out of more than 30, which penetrated one can say that the armor is good enough.
What does one expects?
The round (one of over 30 rounds) hit the armor on the right turret front penetrated the add-on armor and than entered the turret through a weak point were the GPS had been before.
I told you about that there is a ballistic hole which is much smaller than one may think, due to a big armor block behind the former optic but the channel for the cables and optical connections still remains a weakpoint.
Penetration there can only be achieved within a very limited angle. One has to literally aim for this point from a close distance or have very bad luck.
The problem has been adressed for some time now but Greece still refuses to pay.
Our chancellor has adressed the KMW problem, as well as the HDW problem, already twice and is planning to do it again. She would not interfere if it was just bad behaviour of KMW and HDW...
Interesting to see that none of the other customers of Leo IIs with KWS-II add-on armor had the same problems in the past...
The same goes for the SK U214s.
So far I think that if this unlucky (Or specially aimed for) shot which entered the Leo II is the only on,e out of more than 30, which penetrated one can say that the armor is good enough.
What does one expects?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #43
Greece has accepted the LEOs as soon as the problem solved. In fact the delivery has commenced during last October.
Greece was the 1st customer of U214 so it is logical sequent that no other had before the same problems. Furthermore problems has to do with the terms of the contract. If KMW or HDW had promised in order to win the contract (and signed also in the contracts), particular specifications, they are obligated to keep that promises! The lack of a solution so far has to do mainly with the fact that Greek part has payed the 80% of the money in advance(!) which leaves Greek Gov. with very litle negotiation power.
Safety of the personel is not a mater of luck. I am curius about the opinion of other users of LEO2. I'm sure they are going to fix that problem as soon as they can also! Don't forget, everyone, everywhere and when encounters a Leo2 in battle knows now where to aim! (That is what one expects!)
The likelihood of hitting the weak spot with a CEP under about 5 cm, at very short ranges, and getting your MBT or AT gun into the right angle towards the turret - which, not to forget, is the same as getting right in front of the Leo's main gun - is... rather low i'd say.
And with that they're then obligated to pay KMW for them of course...
As Kato said, one would expect that now the money begins to flow.
The HDW problem seems to be more complicated. The U214 is sitting here in Kiel and it looks like they are not working on it anymore. And it is like this for some time now.
So HDW thinks and says that the problems are solved.
The Greek customers seem to think something else.
The KMW problem is already solved and still no payment...
It defenitely is a matter of luck. Of really bad luck.
Here Kato has also been faster than me. We are not talking about something one can aim for. One can hardly aim for the former GPS on Leo IIA4.
Now we are talking about a really little hole which one needs to hit at a very, very limited angle.
We are not talking about hitting the former place of the GPS. Behind it there is a big block of armor similar to the one at the left side of the turret just a little bit further back.
So it is like GPS--->main armor--->TC.
In order to penetrate there one needs to hit the frontal right side of the former GPS. And this with an angle which allows the round to hit the small slit at the left back of the former GPS.
This is nothing one can aim for (Apart from a specially designed test). Actually one needs really bad luck to get hit there (Apart from the needed energy to penetrate the add-on armor).
Yes I do know about the test in question and have all the confidence that the issue was resolved, I was wondering that maybe he had some additional information that he could share with us on the actual testing.
500 vehicles for such small army, and for such price cant be really "stopgap". They will serve for at least 10 years. And lets face it, EVERY current IFV will be rather old in 10 years.
I hate to break it to you Chrom but everything will be old in ten years...That's probably true about this being a non stopgap capability considering the price (I had not taken that into account when I posted my 2 c). By ten years time the US Army and every other Army's FCS systems will be operational leading to another capability stalemate. But overall the fighting effectiveness of these armies with be significantly increased.
Right now though, these vehicles obviously met the the Greek armies requirements, I think debating why and why no it was a good choice to get them is a little bit rash because most of the time now it is if it fites into the dotrine of the army and how well you use it.
For instance what if Greece got the best (assuming there was a defined best) but it did not fit into the armies way of fighting, is this the same as getting a slightly more ineffective vehicle that fits into the doctrine of that army DEFIANTLY NOT!!!
BLACK SHIP
New Member
There are some simple facts which the Greek Army had to consider .It needed a IFV with good firepower and mobility to accompany the LEOII/A4/A6 in battle.
The BMP-3 is the best compromise for his needs regarding capability/price/numbers needed . While there are several very capable IFVs none of them could fulfill the above critical criteria combined . The details of the
deal are not clear yet regarding the exact version but it seems that will be one totally suited to the Greek Army requirements with a lot of systems which will be announced later.
ps. Regarding the U214 my only comment is this :When you order a Porche you expect to get one and you won't settle for a VW.
The BMP-3 is the best compromise for his needs regarding capability/price/numbers needed . While there are several very capable IFVs none of them could fulfill the above critical criteria combined . The details of the
deal are not clear yet regarding the exact version but it seems that will be one totally suited to the Greek Army requirements with a lot of systems which will be announced later.
ps. Regarding the U214 my only comment is this :When you order a Porche you expect to get one and you won't settle for a VW.
sorry for the delay guys I was away for the weekend.
Basically from the info I have on the test it seems that the turret was hit by 120mm AP rounds (i dont know if it was the DM33) and two of those rounds penetrated the turret at the left of the turret at the side of the gunners sight.
From this the problem appeared to be quite a bit bigger than what some are proposing but it was indeed solved and payment should be underway and that i know from a source in the economic service in the army.
As for the submarine goes the list of the problems is about a page long and as the friend above said when you buy a Porsche you expect one, excellent comment by the way.
Moreover i would say that it was pretty stupid of Greece to give 80% of the money in advance and now we can see why....the program is a year late and seems to have some unsolvable problems so i would say that if the German chancellor has the right to complain about a delayed payment of 30m then the Greek prime minister should start complaining about a delayed submarine costing more than 600m.
Basically from the info I have on the test it seems that the turret was hit by 120mm AP rounds (i dont know if it was the DM33) and two of those rounds penetrated the turret at the left of the turret at the side of the gunners sight.
From this the problem appeared to be quite a bit bigger than what some are proposing but it was indeed solved and payment should be underway and that i know from a source in the economic service in the army.
As for the submarine goes the list of the problems is about a page long and as the friend above said when you buy a Porsche you expect one, excellent comment by the way.
Moreover i would say that it was pretty stupid of Greece to give 80% of the money in advance and now we can see why....the program is a year late and seems to have some unsolvable problems so i would say that if the German chancellor has the right to complain about a delayed payment of 30m then the Greek prime minister should start complaining about a delayed submarine costing more than 600m.
Wanted to ask the Greek guys in the discussion whether anyone of them has heard and is 100% sure that the Leo 2 tanks have been as of now officially accepted by the Hellenic army. The last thing I heard was about the problem with th VAT and Mr Vassilakos preparing a draft for a solution to go in front of parliament but no official acceptance. This problem does not involve Germany so it should not obstruct payment to KMW.
Petros I am mostly asking you because you were the one saying that they have been delivered.
Petros I am mostly asking you because you were the one saying that they have been delivered.
One thing is for sure that theirs still 500 millions euros left for more IFV+
100 millions euro we saved by getting BMP-3F for free.Dont be suprised if
Greece place a order for Puma or CV90.
A few days ago i read in a Greek newspaper that their plans to purchase
more IFV {about 250 before 2011}
Hello everybody!
No way! Greece has many needs in military equipment. IFV's was an urgent one for many years and that's why it became a reality. Fast delivery was a major factor of BMP-3's choice. Fighter airplanes, AAW frigates and many more are coming next. There is no way that Greece can afford a future order of Puma's, or even CV90's, in the next 4 years. We have already rejected Shtora-1 because of it's high price! Don't forget, if you already know, that this greek government has a very strict economic policy...
No way! Greece has many needs in military equipment. IFV's was an urgent one for many years and that's why it became a reality. Fast delivery was a major factor of BMP-3's choice. Fighter airplanes, AAW frigates and many more are coming next. There is no way that Greece can afford a future order of Puma's, or even CV90's, in the next 4 years. We have already rejected Shtora-1 because of it's high price! Don't forget, if you already know, that this greek government has a very strict economic policy...
Greece still has more money for IFV, what they buy is their decision.
Puma or CV90 is still a option for Greece.A order of 80+90 is possible.
One think is for sure they will purchase more IFV.The greek government
strick economic policy is until 2010.After 2010 anything is possible.
No fighters or frigates or anything else until 2010
I do not know if Greece will buy and when... But I consider the purchase/order for a totally new IFV prior to completence (last delivery) of the first ever IFV order, to be a critical mistake for a variety of reasons. Apart from the most obvious financial problem, the Greek Army would have to integrate two different IFV's, with different philosophy, different systems, and in general different logistic and maintenance superstructure, to his core, thus creating a huge logistic problem in the Greek Army most obvious which is the financial issue.
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Dude can you help me out here because am confused
Greece defence budget for 2006-2010 was set to about 11-12 billions euros
we havent purchased anything except for f-16 and IFV were the hell is the
rest of the money?
Greece defence budget for 2010-2015 is at 15 billions euros.Is this right
You realize only 10-20% goes into acquisition usually?
BLACK SHIP
New Member
The money given for a purchase simply does not have to match the allocated amount .If there are money left simply they moved to other programs to cover pressing needs .Dude can you help me out here because am confused
Greece defence budget for 2006-2010 was set to about 11-12 billions euros
we havent purchased anything except for f-16 and IFV were the hell is the
rest of the money?
Greece defence budget for 2010-2015 is at 15 billions euros.Is this right
As far the IFVs for now will be only the BMP-3 .If you take into account the investment and numbers involved its hard to imagine that anything else will be purchased in the foreseeable future .