Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not sure a King Air is exactly a viable replacement for that…
Dash 8?
Qantas just bought 14 newer ones, while the 19 older ones will be disposed of. They are used for pacific and island runs.
If its just moving people, medivac, mail, etc, It can do that much cheaper than a 27J. Also used by Solomon airlines, Air Kiribati, Air Niugini and Australian border force. So local people all over the region familiar with this aircraft.

They make a cargo version able to accept palettes (2.8x1.8) LD1/LD2/LD3/LD4. And the cargo plane can be converted back into passenger. Still strong short field performance. It can also be reconfigured into a ferry configuration with 6 fuel tanks in the passenger aera. Its ferry range would be long enough to fly to our pacific friends, perhaps not fully loaded directly, but isn't that what the C130/C17 (or larger commercial cargo planes taking on LD1-4 type palettes) are for? The Dash 8 could then re-fly out to smaller islands and remote areas.

With a range of 2000km, it could fly out to Vanuatu, then onto Fiji. Probably not that flash for passengers going that way, but to get it into the region, no worries. There would be lots of doable routes.

We will have a strong C130/C17 fleet for anything other than palettes/people.

Also being able to directly take commercial palette may make logistics even easier than handling out from C130/C17 as you can take even cheaper commercial freighters out and simply load onto another commercial type plane, including the air forces KC-30 A330 planes. I assume training ADF personnel on a commercial type is popular as it gives people when they move on from the ADF instant commercial skills.

Money saved can be put into other things. Hit the Canadians up for Ghostbat offsets.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
It would be interesting to know what load the C27J actually carries most of the time, along with runway length and what range most sorties are operated at.

Would something like a Cessna SkyCourier or DHC Twin Otter be sufficient?

Or even something like a Cessna Caravan, Daher Kodiak or GippsAero GA10 (if it ever gets built).

Some of these options can also be mounted on floats and by comparison to something like a C27J, can be procured and operated in large numbers if there was a need for it.

The Dash 8 and Sky Courier are going to need proper runways to operate out of though unlike the other options.

Dash 8 is currently out of production, and the only ones that have been built recently are the Q400 which is actually a larger aircraft then the C27J with similar cargo capacity but losing the STOL performance. Dash 8 needs over 1km (wiki lists ~1400m) of runway.
 
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Wombat000

Well-Known Member
I think the question of “what do they carry most of the time” Is a bit distracting.

My Land Cruiser spends most of its time in a shopping car park, but I’ve got it for river crossings and adverse tracks.
If it’s deemed to be unsuitable for these dodgey swamp holes, If I haven’t gone bush for 2yrs, then all it ever does is shopping runs, then sure buy a Camry.

I think the C-27s intended role was for ‘Tactical’ air lift, akin to Caribou utility.
That actual Caribou-esque role/requirement still exists, especially with the pivot to dispersed littoral operations and the logistical support of it.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I think the question of “what do they carry most of the time” Is a bit distracting.

My Land Cruiser spends most of its time in a shopping car park, but I’ve got it for river crossings and adverse tracks.
If it’s deemed to be unsuitable for these dodgey swamp holes, If I haven’t gone bush for 2yrs, then all it ever does is shopping runs, then sure buy a Camry.

I think the C-27s intended role was for ‘Tactical’ air lift, akin to Caribou utility.
That actual Caribou-esque role/requirement still exists, especially with the pivot to dispersed littoral operations and the logistical support of it.
The RAAF has 10 C-27J's, they are increasing the number of C-130J's from 12 to 20 which is a net increase of 8 units of more capable airlifters. There is also significant transport capability in the KC-30's and obviously the C-17.

*If* a smaller aircraft can do 90% of the roles that C-27J can accomplish at a fraction of the cost, go for it. For the 10% that a smaller aircraft cannot carry out, send a C130J.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I think the question of “what do they carry most of the time” Is a bit distracting.

My Land Cruiser spends most of its time in a shopping car park, but I’ve got it for river crossings and adverse tracks.
If it’s deemed to be unsuitable for these dodgey swamp holes, If I haven’t gone bush for 2yrs, then all it ever does is shopping runs, then sure buy a Camry.

I think the C-27s intended role was for ‘Tactical’ air lift, akin to Caribou utility.
That actual Caribou-esque role/requirement still exists, especially with the pivot to dispersed littoral operations and the logistical support of it.
Part of the issue is whether or not the C-27 is really effective as a replacement for the Caribou. My suspicion is that the answer to that question is, "no."

IIRC, part of the original reason why the US Army wanted the C-27 was that they wanted a smaller airlifter to work with and augment the C-130. The idea took some hold because it turned out after studying some of the logistics flights, many of those conducted by C-130's were only flown at partial load capacity. Again, IIRC the RAAF at one point did a similar study and reported similar data, with many RAAF C-130 flights being largely or mostly empty aircraft. Hence some of the push towards a capable airlifter with many of the capabilities of the C-130 in terms of range, size of load, rough field performance, etc. The end going being to get another airlifter which would cost less to operate and would be suitable for many of the missions conducted by the C-130.

Unfort lobbying by the USAF got the DOD to turn the C-27 battlefield airlifter project over to them, and the USAF not wanting to lose control over fixed wing airlift transports promptly killed it.

Of course the C-27 programme itself was not without some flaws and issues, since whilst not as expensive per flight as the C-130, it was still not a low cost aircraft to operate. In the end, I believe that the USAF decided that the (apart from the political machinations) slightly lower aircraft flight cost was outweighed by the increased costs associated with operating a second type of aircraft. This was even after commonality in avionics and mechanical systems between the C-27 and C-130J was achieved.

Getting back to the ADF generally and the RAAF specifically, aside from questions regarding the size, weight and type of payload being lifted (pallets, outsized cargo, personnel, etc.) I would focus my questions more on areas where the ADF wants and needs to operate fixed wing airlift from, and whether or not there is a real difference in the number of fields suitable for the C-27 vs. the C-130.

If the situation is that any field the RAAF would use a C-27 from could also use a C-130 then trying to sustain to different fleets might not make sense. OTOH if there are fields which could take a C-27 but not a C-130, I would be interested to know just how many of these there are, and how often they are used or needed.

As I mentioned before, based off public data available for the C-27 and DHC-4 Caribou, there are likely quite a few fields that the Caribou used to be operated from, but are too small and/or the field surface is too soft to take the much heavier C-27. I seem to recall someone here on DT who was ex-Army, mentioning that during an exercise a group of troops was used to manually lift, turn and reposition a Caribou that had landed in the Far North somewhere so that it could take off again. It would likely be quite difficult for a unit of troops to even try and do something similar with a C-27.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As I mentioned before, based off public data available for the C-27 and DHC-4 Caribou, there are likely quite a few fields that the Caribou used to be operated from, but are too small and/or the field surface is too soft to take the much heavier C-27. I seem to recall someone here on DT who was ex-Army, mentioning that during an exercise a group of troops was used to manually lift, turn and reposition a Caribou that had landed in the Far North somewhere so that it could take off again. It would likely be quite difficult for a unit of troops to even try and do something similar with a C-27.
That must have been some “troop” given a Caribou weighed 18,260 odd pounds, empty…
 

Tbone

Active Member
Would it be worth setting up a pacific air wing in Fiji or PNG and gift the C-27 so these nations could develop an airlift capability themselves with help from Australia? I believe PNG have enquired about help setting up an air wing and if pacific nations could come together this would be a great step forward in a collective pacific force.
 

Tbone

Active Member

I do somehow feel a small Cessna type aircraft would be a great choice. Able to deploy a section of troops, or small cargo.IRS and strike capabilities. Has a long range and cheap as chips. Could be easily used across the pacific by pacific nations under Australian control. Did I mention they are cheap.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Part of the issue is whether or not the C-27 is really effective as a replacement for the Caribou. My suspicion is that the answer to that question is, "no."
Enough of a no that FSP20 considered stopping the AIR 8000 buy short of the last couple of airframes. It's been a reasonable failure for most of it's intended use; ironically being pushed to HADR and Pacific because of no threat, low loads, and to take some load off the C-130s.

In providing a STOVL capability of value it's completely failed to replace the Caribou; the Caribou could get into significantly large number of strips that the C-27J just cannot; likewise the C-130 and C-17 can carry more to get into the strips where the C-27J can. The commonality between the C-130J and C-27J never really eventuated, and the sustainment cost is eye-watering. Add in some questionable aerodynamic and avionics work and you have a platform that just....didn't.

There is no single Caribou replacement; but it is an excellent example of don't look at kit, look at capability. If you want tactical airlift, the optimal mix is C-130 and CH-47. Pack it right into the C-130 and it's an easy transfer across to the CH-47 that, in turn, pushes the resupply forward (while keeping the C-130 reasonably far back). Various airlift studies have consistently shown the optimal mix for the ADF to be C-17 / C-130 / CH-47.

Would it be worth setting up a pacific air wing in Fiji or PNG and gift the C-27 so these nations could develop an airlift capability themselves with help from Australia? I believe PNG have enquired about help setting up an air wing and if pacific nations could come together this would be a great step forward in a collective pacific force.
Who is paying for it?

The sustainment costs for the C-27 fleet are unlikely to be affordable by Pacific nations - in terms of $$ and workforce skills. In all honesty, if you wanted that type of Pacific air force capability, buy something COTS.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
That must have been some “troop” given a Caribou weighed 18,260 odd pounds, empty…
Not really, if one thinks about it. An avg adult male can push a ~2,000 lb car enough to get it to start rolling. Assuming that there is enough surface area for ~30 troops to take a position and exert force upon a Caribou airframe then they should certainly be able to push it around. One question would be whether or not the ground surface was firm enough for the Caribou wheels to roll, or whether the wheels sank into the dirt/sand/mud/whatever.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Enough of a no that FSP20 considered stopping the AIR 8000 buy short of the last couple of airframes. It's been a reasonable failure for most of it's intended use; ironically being pushed to HADR and Pacific because of no threat, low loads, and to take some load off the C-130s.

In providing a STOVL capability of value it's completely failed to replace the Caribou; the Caribou could get into significantly large number of strips that the C-27J just cannot; likewise the C-130 and C-17 can carry more to get into the strips where the C-27J can. The commonality between the C-130J and C-27J never really eventuated, and the sustainment cost is eye-watering. Add in some questionable aerodynamic and avionics work and you have a platform that just....didn't.

There is no single Caribou replacement; but it is an excellent example of don't look at kit, look at capability. If you want tactical airlift, the optimal mix is C-130 and CH-47. Pack it right into the C-130 and it's an easy transfer across to the CH-47 that, in turn, pushes the resupply forward (while keeping the C-130 reasonably far back). Various airlift studies have consistently shown the optimal mix for the ADF to be C-17 / C-130 / CH-47.



Who is paying for it?

The sustainment costs for the C-27 fleet are unlikely to be affordable by Pacific nations - in terms of $$ and workforce skills. In all honesty, if you wanted that type of Pacific air force capability, buy something COTS.
No modern Caribou contenders available so the best contenders for replacement of the medium lift capability were the 27J and C295.
The suggested best optimal mix of C-17 / C-130 / CH-47 is fine if each class has a sufficient number of aircraft.
Not something the ADF had 15 years ago.

So the winning 27J was selected but was incorrectly compared to much to the former Caribou, rather than been seen for its much improved attributes of electronics, range and payload.
Sure It’s not a true STOL aircraft, but it is however a true military aircraft with the ability to operate in more than three times the number or landing strips domestically compared to the larger C130.

I understand in the early days there were some who were very optimistic about the future and potential of the 27J. Suggestions of increasing the numbers above the initial 10 and pushing the realms of what this platform could bring to the ADF.

Alas it was not to be which I feel is a shame.
Like the Taipan it became unloved.

The C-17 and CH-47 are great aircraft and the old Hercules has served us well but for the life of me I cannot see why we continuing with the C130 going forward.
For today’s and tomorrow’s Army it’s just too small.
So no Spartans, but rather 20 new Hercs to compliment the in 8 in service C17 plus some support from our 7 KC-30’s. The later will realistically be primarily focused on their tanker role.

We had some 50 transport aircraft in the early 80s. Hercs ,Caribou and Pilatus porter.
While no apple for apples re capability sometimes aircraft numbers count.

I doubt the 27J will be replaced in any way shape or form and as such its capability no doubt will be missed.

Cheers S
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
C 27 was no Caribou thats for sure. It carried a lot more a lot faster and a lot further than a caribou.
However, I did quite a few jumps from the old CC08s, they could land and take off from a paddock, or a beach, even just a clearing, they were awesome i well remember we did a jump onto Saltash DZ near Williamtown RAAF base.
The "bou" landed on the DZ after us, and we rigged up, boarded and did it again.
One time it got bogged, and our platoon pushed it out, the old bou could carry 30 paratroops, the C 27 can drop 46.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
We had some 50 transport aircraft in the early 80s. Hercs ,Caribou and Pilatus porter.
While no apple for apples re capability sometimes aircraft numbers count.
8x C-17A
7x KC-30A
20x C-130J
14x CH-47F
40x UH-60M (if you are counting Porter....)
----
89x air lift platforms. All of whom are better/stronger/faster than their 1980s equivalent

We never have enough airlift. We never had, and wartime will increase demand. Air lift is the most useful unique thing that air power brings; it's the only thing that has achieved strategic effect without land or maritime support outside of nukes. It's vital.

But that's more C-17 or, at a pinch, C-130. Valuable airlift. Not C-27

I doubt the 27J will be replaced in any way shape or form and as such its capability no doubt will be missed.
I doubt it will be missed. It hasn't exactly done a heap of support to Army (they use C-130 and C-17), it hasn't really supported critical missions. Some HADR and some milk runs to the region - neither of which should be the role of a focused ADF.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Not really, if one thinks about it. An avg adult male can push a ~2,000 lb car enough to get it to start rolling. Assuming that there is enough surface area for ~30 troops to take a position and exert force upon a Caribou airframe then they should certainly be able to push it around. One question would be whether or not the ground surface was firm enough for the Caribou wheels to roll, or whether the wheels sank into the dirt/sand/mud/whatever.
That quote wasn’t that they pushed an unloaded Caribou, it was that they “lifted” a stuck one…
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
No modern Caribou contenders available so the best contenders for replacement of the medium lift capability were the 27J and C295.
The suggested best optimal mix of C-17 / C-130 / CH-47 is fine if each class has a sufficient number of aircraft.
Not something the ADF had 15 years ago.

So the winning 27J was selected but was incorrectly compared to much to the former Caribou, rather than been seen for its much improved attributes of electronics, range and payload.
Sure It’s not a true STOL aircraft, but it is however a true military aircraft with the ability to operate in more than three times the number or landing strips domestically compared to the larger C130.

I understand in the early days there were some who were very optimistic about the future and potential of the 27J. Suggestions of increasing the numbers above the initial 10 and pushing the realms of what this platform could bring to the ADF.

Alas it was not to be which I feel is a shame.
Like the Taipan it became unloved.

The C-17 and CH-47 are great aircraft and the old Hercules has served us well but for the life of me I cannot see why we continuing with the C130 going forward.
For today’s and tomorrow’s Army it’s just too small.
So no Spartans, but rather 20 new Hercs to compliment the in 8 in service C17 plus some support from our 7 KC-30’s. The later will realistically be primarily focused on their tanker role.

We had some 50 transport aircraft in the early 80s. Hercs ,Caribou and Pilatus porter.
While no apple for apples re capability sometimes aircraft numbers count.

I doubt the 27J will be replaced in any way shape or form and as such its capability no doubt will be missed.

Cheers S
If you are going to count the Pilatus Porter than you have to count the King Air’s that replaced them.

So 20x C-130J
8x C-17A
7x KC-30A
12x King Air 350

Stacks up pretty well compared to that 80’s airlift fleet…
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
That quote wasn’t that they pushed an unloaded Caribou, it was that they “lifted” a stuck one…
That might be an issue with using different dialects. Lifting and then carrying a Caribou would be one thing. Lifting a Caribou and rotating it on an axis because a wheel had gone flat, sunk into the ground, or something similar is another.

Not unlike some MVA's that sometimes occur in public areas where a pedestrian or cyclist gets trapped under a vehicle. Sometimes under such circumstances, bystanders work together to lift the vehicle so the trapped victim can get extricated before Fire Rescue arrives. BTW I am not talking about displays of hysterical strength which sometimes occur during times of extreme distress.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
That must have been some “troop” given a Caribou weighed 18,260 odd pounds, empty…
I just read this, as I have pointed out, I have personally been involved in pushing caribou , and we helped turn it on a dz. It was at saltash, which is sand with grass over it. Of course, the engine was running, and and the pilots were using the thrust , we assisted and got it moving. Of course we didnt lift the damn thing! But the rough field ability of those old girls was amazing, also did field landings and take offs at Exmouth, but that is a different story....
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
If you are going to count the Pilatus Porter than you have to count the King Air’s that replaced them.

So 20x C-130J
8x C-17A
7x KC-30A
12x King Air 350

Stacks up pretty well compared to that 80’s airlift fleet…
Could have included the 70/80s helicopter fleets as well.
Again numbers!

But yes we do have some good airlift capability, but still perplexed as to why the Spartan appears to be a fail.

Agree with TAKAO re the importance of logistics.
Can never have too much.

Cheers all

Regards S
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I wish I could get behind the paywall but there appears to be an agreement between Australia and Japan on working together on the MQ-28A.
I jumped to the defence website and I found a mention of this collaboration in a joint statement between Australian and Japanese Defence Ministers. Not a lot of detail but anything which speeds up development and brings down the unit price is a good thing.
 
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