Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not sure a King Air is exactly a viable replacement for that…
Dash 8?
Qantas just bought 14 newer ones, while the 19 older ones will be disposed of. They are used for pacific and island runs.
If its just moving people, medivac, mail, etc, It can do that much cheaper than a 27J. Also used by Solomon airlines, Air Kiribati, Air Niugini and Australian border force. So local people all over the region familiar with this aircraft.

They make a cargo version able to accept palettes (2.8x1.8) LD1/LD2/LD3/LD4. And the cargo plane can be converted back into passenger. Still strong short field performance. It can also be reconfigured into a ferry configuration with 6 fuel tanks in the passenger aera. Its ferry range would be long enough to fly to our pacific friends, perhaps not fully loaded directly, but isn't that what the C130/C17 (or larger commercial cargo planes taking on LD1-4 type palettes) are for? The Dash 8 could then re-fly out to smaller islands and remote areas.

With a range of 2000km, it could fly out to Vanuatu, then onto Fiji. Probably not that flash for passengers going that way, but to get it into the region, no worries. There would be lots of doable routes.

We will have a strong C130/C17 fleet for anything other than palettes/people.

Also being able to directly take commercial palette may make logistics even easier than handling out from C130/C17 as you can take even cheaper commercial freighters out and simply load onto another commercial type plane, including the air forces KC-30 A330 planes. I assume training ADF personnel on a commercial type is popular as it gives people when they move on from the ADF instant commercial skills.

Money saved can be put into other things. Hit the Canadians up for Ghostbat offsets.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
It would be interesting to know what load the C27J actually carries most of the time, along with runway length and what range most sorties are operated at.

Would something like a Cessna SkyCourier or DHC Twin Otter be sufficient?

Or even something like a Cessna Caravan, Daher Kodiak or GippsAero GA10 (if it ever gets built).

Some of these options can also be mounted on floats and by comparison to something like a C27J, can be procured and operated in large numbers if there was a need for it.

The Dash 8 and Sky Courier are going to need proper runways to operate out of though unlike the other options.

Dash 8 is currently out of production, and the only ones that have been built recently are the Q400 which is actually a larger aircraft then the C27J with similar cargo capacity but losing the STOL performance. Dash 8 needs over 1km (wiki lists ~1400m) of runway.
 
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Wombat000

Well-Known Member
I think the question of “what do they carry most of the time” Is a bit distracting.

My Land Cruiser spends most of its time in a shopping car park, but I’ve got it for river crossings and adverse tracks.
If it’s deemed to be unsuitable for these dodgey swamp holes, If I haven’t gone bush for 2yrs, then all it ever does is shopping runs, then sure buy a Camry.

I think the C-27s intended role was for ‘Tactical’ air lift, akin to Caribou utility.
That actual Caribou-esque role/requirement still exists, especially with the pivot to dispersed littoral operations and the logistical support of it.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I think the question of “what do they carry most of the time” Is a bit distracting.

My Land Cruiser spends most of its time in a shopping car park, but I’ve got it for river crossings and adverse tracks.
If it’s deemed to be unsuitable for these dodgey swamp holes, If I haven’t gone bush for 2yrs, then all it ever does is shopping runs, then sure buy a Camry.

I think the C-27s intended role was for ‘Tactical’ air lift, akin to Caribou utility.
That actual Caribou-esque role/requirement still exists, especially with the pivot to dispersed littoral operations and the logistical support of it.
The RAAF has 10 C-27J's, they are increasing the number of C-130J's from 12 to 20 which is a net increase of 8 units of more capable airlifters. There is also significant transport capability in the KC-30's and obviously the C-17.

*If* a smaller aircraft can do 90% of the roles that C-27J can accomplish at a fraction of the cost, go for it. For the 10% that a smaller aircraft cannot carry out, send a C130J.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I think the question of “what do they carry most of the time” Is a bit distracting.

My Land Cruiser spends most of its time in a shopping car park, but I’ve got it for river crossings and adverse tracks.
If it’s deemed to be unsuitable for these dodgey swamp holes, If I haven’t gone bush for 2yrs, then all it ever does is shopping runs, then sure buy a Camry.

I think the C-27s intended role was for ‘Tactical’ air lift, akin to Caribou utility.
That actual Caribou-esque role/requirement still exists, especially with the pivot to dispersed littoral operations and the logistical support of it.
Part of the issue is whether or not the C-27 is really effective as a replacement for the Caribou. My suspicion is that the answer to that question is, "no."

IIRC, part of the original reason why the US Army wanted the C-27 was that they wanted a smaller airlifter to work with and augment the C-130. The idea took some hold because it turned out after studying some of the logistics flights, many of those conducted by C-130's were only flown at partial load capacity. Again, IIRC the RAAF at one point did a similar study and reported similar data, with many RAAF C-130 flights being largely or mostly empty aircraft. Hence some of the push towards a capable airlifter with many of the capabilities of the C-130 in terms of range, size of load, rough field performance, etc. The end going being to get another airlifter which would cost less to operate and would be suitable for many of the missions conducted by the C-130.

Unfort lobbying by the USAF got the DOD to turn the C-27 battlefield airlifter project over to them, and the USAF not wanting to lose control over fixed wing airlift transports promptly killed it.

Of course the C-27 programme itself was not without some flaws and issues, since whilst not as expensive per flight as the C-130, it was still not a low cost aircraft to operate. In the end, I believe that the USAF decided that the (apart from the political machinations) slightly lower aircraft flight cost was outweighed by the increased costs associated with operating a second type of aircraft. This was even after commonality in avionics and mechanical systems between the C-27 and C-130J was achieved.

Getting back to the ADF generally and the RAAF specifically, aside from questions regarding the size, weight and type of payload being lifted (pallets, outsized cargo, personnel, etc.) I would focus my questions more on areas where the ADF wants and needs to operate fixed wing airlift from, and whether or not there is a real difference in the number of fields suitable for the C-27 vs. the C-130.

If the situation is that any field the RAAF would use a C-27 from could also use a C-130 then trying to sustain to different fleets might not make sense. OTOH if there are fields which could take a C-27 but not a C-130, I would be interested to know just how many of these there are, and how often they are used or needed.

As I mentioned before, based off public data available for the C-27 and DHC-4 Caribou, there are likely quite a few fields that the Caribou used to be operated from, but are too small and/or the field surface is too soft to take the much heavier C-27. I seem to recall someone here on DT who was ex-Army, mentioning that during an exercise a group of troops was used to manually lift, turn and reposition a Caribou that had landed in the Far North somewhere so that it could take off again. It would likely be quite difficult for a unit of troops to even try and do something similar with a C-27.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As I mentioned before, based off public data available for the C-27 and DHC-4 Caribou, there are likely quite a few fields that the Caribou used to be operated from, but are too small and/or the field surface is too soft to take the much heavier C-27. I seem to recall someone here on DT who was ex-Army, mentioning that during an exercise a group of troops was used to manually lift, turn and reposition a Caribou that had landed in the Far North somewhere so that it could take off again. It would likely be quite difficult for a unit of troops to even try and do something similar with a C-27.
That must have been some “troop” given a Caribou weighed 18,260 odd pounds, empty…
 

Tbone

Active Member
Would it be worth setting up a pacific air wing in Fiji or PNG and gift the C-27 so these nations could develop an airlift capability themselves with help from Australia? I believe PNG have enquired about help setting up an air wing and if pacific nations could come together this would be a great step forward in a collective pacific force.
 

Tbone

Active Member

I do somehow feel a small Cessna type aircraft would be a great choice. Able to deploy a section of troops, or small cargo.IRS and strike capabilities. Has a long range and cheap as chips. Could be easily used across the pacific by pacific nations under Australian control. Did I mention they are cheap.
 
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