JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[BilalK]

AESA with less than a thousand T/R modules might is the greatest market rip off there is. Just becaused it's "AESA", doesn't mean you will get substantial improvement in performance over conventional array.

Bottom line, AESA is overhyped.

Aren't AESA radars cheaper/easier to maintain & operate than PD?

 

[swerve]

Aren't AESA radars cheaper/easier to maintain & operate than PD?

Selex et al are trying to sell the CAESAR to Eurofighter customers partly on the grounds that its lower maintenance cost makes it cheaper, despite a higher purchase price. The difference in operating cost must be significant for that to be true - and nobody has disputed it.

 

[DragonKing786]

AESA with less than a thousand T/R modules might is the greatest market rip off there is. Just becaused it's "AESA", doesn't mean you will get substantial improvement in performance over conventional array.

Bottom line, AESA is overhyped.

Thankx for explaining guyes, I'm learning alot even though Aviation isn't my strong point.

But I have one question to Pathfinder-X or anytone who can answer this:

Just becaused it's "AESA", doesn't mean you will get substantial improvement in performance over conventional array.

Bottom line, AESA is overhyped.

I thought that AESA was top of the line and basically a dead end in radar technology, and I always thought you will get better performance than a conventional radar, and why would you say it's over hyped, can a convential equiped plane take on a AESA equiped?

 

[swerve]

...
I thought that AESA was top of the line and basically a dead end in radar technology, and I always thought you will get better performance than a conventional radar, and why would you say it's over hyped, can a convential equiped plane take on a AESA equiped?

Depends on the radars. Compare PicoSAR with Captor. One is AESA - but small, cheap, low-power - intended for tactical UAVs. The other is mechanically-scanned - but high-power, high-performance.

That's extreme, of course, but you get the point. A good AESA radar can be better than the best mechanically-scanned radar, but that doesn't mean all AESA radars are better.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Thankx for explaining guyes, I'm learning alot even though Aviation isn't my strong point.

But I have one question to Pathfinder-X or anytone who can answer this:



I thought that AESA was top of the line and basically a dead end in radar technology, and I always thought you will get better performance than a conventional radar, and why would you say it's over hyped, can a convential equiped plane take on a AESA equiped?

Yes, but AESA also require a certain number of T/R modules to be effective. Each of these modules can be considered a mini radar, transmitting and receiving signals. Being AESA does not automatically mean it will be superior in performance to advanced mechanical arrays. Most capable AESAs have over 1,000 T/R units, requiring significant space in the aircraft nose. That is why I consider putting AESA on JF-17 to be nothing more than a "feel good" hype.

Of course, my knowledge about radar is pretty shitty. You should probably confirm this with gf0012-aust.

 

[crobato]

It's too expensive for a quality radar. I have been keeping tabs on PLAAFs quest for Russian AESA and can infer that their own program must not be going well if they are.

Really? I have never heard of any interest for the PLAAF to acquire any AESA from the Russians, other than an upgrade for the proposed Su-33 purchase. But that is a Russian radar on a Russian platform, which is a Russian area of responsbility to upgrade. On fitting Russian radars on any domestic platform it has been zero, and all studies on Russian phase arrays made early this decade has effectively been dropped after 2005. This includes the Kopyo-F phase array that was proposed early for the FC-1 for the PLAAF version. At one time the Russians were displaying a model of this radar next to the FC-1/JF-17 booths.

Yes, but AESA also require a certain number of T/R modules to be effective. Each of these modules can be considered a mini radar, transmitting and receiving signals. Being AESA does not automatically mean it will be superior in performance to advanced mechanical arrays. Most capable AESAs have over 1,000 T/R units, requiring significant space in the aircraft nose. That is why I consider putting AESA on JF-17 to be nothing more than a "feel good" hype.

This is not true. AESA has also been considered for missile seekers and ECM pods, and will require far less T/R modules than this.

However this statement,

Being AESA does not automatically mean it will be superior in performance to advanced mechanical arrays.

Is true.

 

[crobato]

The problem isn't really trying to justify if the plane can use/fit/afford AESA.

The problem should be viewed from the other direction. From the manufacturer's point of view.

If I am fabbing about 100,000 T/R modules, my price isn't going to be as good as I am fabbing 1,000,000 T/R modules.

But who is going to absorb my 1 million T/R modules?

So a fighter plane contract makes 100 planes with a radar using 1000 modules each. That accounts for 100,000. Who can absorb the other 900,000?

So you try to get the contracts for Fighter B and Fighter C. Beyond that, you're trying to go beyond fighter contracts and get contracts for missile seekers, AWACS, early warning radar, ship radars, and so on. You have to put your product in just about every imaginable product you can think of.

The funny thing is, you have to impose progress---phased obsolescence---regardless if the solution is or not cost effective or MSAs currently offer the better bang for the buck.

So the real question isn't whether the FC-1 is worth fitting an AESA or not. Its whether one fab will find the market to put its modules in. The guys making the radars will eventually stop making MSAs one way or another, leaving you no choice but to buy AESA, andd your choice is only going which AESA is going to be it.

 

[swerve]

...
This is not true. AESA has also been considered for missile seekers and ECM pods, and will require far less T/R modules than this.
...

Indeed.

AESA radars for maritime patrol aircraft & helicopters are being built with far fewer than 1000 T/R modules. Orders have been placed, deliveries begun (the US coastguards Seasprays are undergoing operational evaluation now), & so far the customers seem perfectly happy with performance.

The PicoSAR AESA radar from Selex is very small, & obviously has a small number of T/R modules. But it works well enough to have been selected for integration on the Falco tactical UAV. i.e. exactly the market it's aimed at.

And dead right about the fabs, as well. Marginal cost of T/R modules is quite small once you have a high volume plant set up - but you have to get back the large capital cost of that plant.

 

[crobato]

Fabs usually pay themselves from commercial applications. The same with Gallenium refineries. GaAs and GaN are also used not just in commercial MMICs, but things like CCDs for cameras, LCD screens for TV and computers, even LEDs for flashlights. The price has gone down a lot due to overcapacity and an overenthusiastic gold rush. A reason being China itself; China is one of the biggest producers of both GaAs and GaN---one of the biggest suppliers to the US---and has a lot of fabs.

So you have a lot of this overcapacity looking for an excuse. It will get to a point where the price of an AESA will be competitive with MSAs. GaN promises considerable reductions in power usage and heat generation---the current bain of AESA right now---over GaAs. When it comes to AESAs, I would wait for this next generation using GaN. The current generation imposes penalties with high power requirements and cooling, all of whom add considerable weight on a plane, especially when you add bigger power generators and transformers.

 

[hassanharl]

folish talking

what you are taking about ha. a aircraft which is not yet completed from last 30 years how it can be completed in future .its pakistan which started its project 10 years ago and now pakistan is looking jf-17 as major and frontline aircraft.you are threaded by pakistan achivement.

 

[pshamim]

what you are taking about ha. a aircraft which is not yet completed from last 30 years how it can be completed in future .its pakistan which started its project 10 years ago and now pakistan is looking jf-17 as major and frontline aircraft.you are threaded by pakistan achivement.

Hassanhari,
Your post does not make sense. Who are you replying to? I do not see anything wrong with Crobato's post.
One other thing-do not get into whose is bigger type of postings. Your post reflects the kind of thinking this forum does not appreciate.

 

[SABRE]

Azerbaijan to buy JF-17 multirole fighters from Pakistan
​

Azerbaijan Defense Minister Safar Abiyev and Defense Industry Minister Yavar Jamalov are scheduled to make an official visit to Pakistan.

The meetings during the visit are to cover cooperation between Azerbaijani and Pakistan in defense industry, APA reports.

While attending the IDEAS international defence & military exhibition in Pakistan, Azerbaijan showed interest to JF-17 multirole fighters as well as tanks and small arms made in Pakistan.

JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft is result of joint effort between Pakistan and Chinese aerospace industries. The production of JF-17 is set to start in 2008 with two aircraft already delivered to Pakistan air force in March, 2007, Pakistan is expected to receive total of 150 to 200 aircrafts.

Azerbaijani Embassy in Pakistan and Foreign Ministries of the two countries are preparing for the visit.

Safar Abiyev and Yavar Jamalov are said to hold several official meetings in the Pakistani Defense Ministry. Defense Industry Minister Jamalov will talk with the Secretary of Pakistan Defense Ministry Shaig Siddig Termidi on cooperation prospects.

SOURCE: DT NEWS
LINK:

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/pub...multirole_fighters_from_Pakistan100011472.php

Small arms deal is certain one. The Azerbijanis had also shown interested in tanks (they inspected both Al-Zarar & Al-Khalid) along with the JF-17 Thunder fighters.

 

[WAR]

Small arms deal is certain one. The Azerbijanis had also shown interested in tanks (they inspected both Al-Zarar & Al-Khalid) along with the JF-17 Thunder fighters.

Well there seems to be a distant possibility for export of JF-17 in near future. However, they may sign an MOU for the procurement of Thunder, may be scheduled for delivery by 2013 or so.

I agree with SABRE that small arms deal may well materialise soon.

 

[pshamim]

News in Russian Press should end the speculation Whether Russia will allow the RD-93 reexport to Pakistan. Guess this matter is settled now per this report.

Chinese Fighter Jets to Reach Pakistan



Russia has officially sanctioned China to re-export aircraft engines to Pakistan. The permit revives the chance of supplying 150 China’s JF-17 fighter jets to Pakistan and the $238-million contract for delivering aircraft engines from Russia with the optional extension to $3.75 billion. In president’s administration, they don’t think deliveries will cloud military and engineering cooperation of Russia and India, which budget is estimated at $1.5 billion a year.




It was a source with Russia’s government that leaked information about Russia’s-Chinese agreement for joint assembly of JF-17 fighter jets with RD-93 engines of Klimov works’ design (made by Chernyshev works) and for selling the aircraft to third countries – Pakistan and a few states of South-East Asia and Africa. “The standing of China is traditionally very strong” there, the source said.

President Vladimir Putin personally supervised the deal and inked sanctioning documents, representatives of president’s administration specified. The deal was backed up by all parties concerned – Defense Ministry, Federal Industry Agency and Rosoboronexport, which is the state exporter of weapons.

But the sanction doesn’t mean adding Pakistan to the list of states of direct military and technical cooperation with Russia. It is rather the matter of a single contract.

Under the contract with China, Pakistan will get 150 JF-17 Thunder (FC-1) fighter jets worth $2.3 billion overall. In 2005, Rosoboronexport made a $238-million contract with China to deliver for FC-1s a hundred RD-93 engines, spares to them and to provide maintenance. Beijing is ready to buy up to 1,000 engines, should they be upgraded for thrust augmentation. In this case, the aggregate budget of contract will step up to $3.75 billion.

www.kommersant

http://www.kommersant.com/p762182/deal_fighter_jets_Pakistan/

 

[pshamim]

After the recent go ahead given by Russians for RD-93 export to Pakistan, as expected, articles by some who are unfriendly and chronically biased towards China and Pakistan have started to trash the JF-17. What is not very clear as to why attempts were being made to block the engines for such a supposedly inferior aircraft.

However, good news keeps coming out suggesting a very positive picture of PAF and its new additions in the coming days.

The latest June issue of the Air Force Monthly Magazine, carries an interview with PAF Chief. The article is at least 6-7 pages long and discusses the following:

1. PAF will be raising the number of JF-17 to 250
2. First 50 will be equipped with Chinese made avionics which Pakistan helped develop.
3. PAF will equip the 2nd batch with AESA. Negotiations in progress with Thales or Gaileo '
4. 16th and 26th squadrons will be the first to get the Thunder;
5. Chinese KLJ-7 radar turned out to be more advanced and capable than the APG-66 on F-16A/B. APG-66 is being replaced by APG-68(v)9 through the MLU;
6.JF-17 to be armed with French, US, and Chinese BVRs. (Wonder what the US position is)
7. Not only the Chinese but the Russians were very cooperative in the development of JF-17.
8. A brand new Air Force base is being built for F-16s

Other points in the article:

1. A minimum strength of 400 combat aircrafts will be maintained. More may be in plans.
2. Middle of 2007, IL-76 will be converted for house and drouge refueling for JF-17
3. F-16 will be equipped with boon refuelling planes for F-16
4. C-130s are being upgraded
5. Erieyes will be joined by Chinese AWACS by 2009.

All the above will be completed by 2012.


http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/current_issue/current_issue.html

 

[BilalK]

pshamim

Didn't the article also mention that the PAF will equip the JF-17s with Western avionics if Thales and Galileo Avionica come up with a good offer? In any case I am pleased to see that AESA radars are being planned for the 2nd batch and on wards. I imagine production of the next JF-17 order will start sometime after 2010?

Regarding the new air base, I heard about this the first time during the recent summer. I was told that construction was originally planned in the late 1980s for anticipation of the Peace Gate IV and another 4th Generation fighter. Apparently it would be the largest PAF air base, new standard of maintenance facillities and a new type of command facillity? Apparently it will set the standards for all other PAF bases. Besides that, I also heard that Sargodha's F-16 fleet will be expanded and an air base in near the coast will also host only F-16s.

 

[swerve]

...2. Middle of 2007, IL-76 will be converted for house and drouge refueling for JF-17
3. F-16 will be equipped with boon refuelling planes for F-16
...
http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/current_issue/current_issue.html

Hmm. Why not fit the Il-76 with a boom as well as hose & drogue, like A330MRTT for Australia, B767 for Italy, & some USAF KC-10s & KC-135s?

This would greatly simplify the management of AAR for the PAF. Any tanker could then refuel any fighter. Operationally, it would have huge advantages.

Alternatively, the F-16s could be fitted with the Sargent Fletcher F-16 370-Gallon Aerial Refueling Tank/System (ART/S®), to allow them to refuel from hose & drogue equipped tankers. See - http://www.sargentfletcher.com/ars.htm

 

[tphuang]

this seems a little fishy

1. PAF will be raising the number of JF-17 to 250
2. First 50 will be equipped with Chinese made avionics which Pakistan helped develop.

I find 2 surprising since Pakistan was so surprised to see the prototype 4 JF-17's avionics change

3. PAF will equip the 2nd batch with AESA. Negotiations in progress with Thales or Gaileo '

which is weird, since neither have a working version and Galileo is much further away.

4. 16th and 26th squadrons will be the first to get the Thunder;
5. Chinese KLJ-7 radar turned out to be more advanced and capable than the APG-66 on F-16A/B. APG-66 is being replaced by APG-68(v)9 through the MLU;

again, weird since we were informed in other interviews that the radar is not by NRIET by a competition between NRIET and lab 607. As for better than the original APG-66, well, that's not comparing to much, is it.

6.JF-17 to be armed with French, US, and Chinese BVRs. (Wonder what the US position is)

not the first 50, that's for sure.

7. Not only the Chinese but the Russians were very cooperative in the development of JF-17.

maybe in the early stages, but the Russians certainly didn't do much recently.

 

[BilalK]

I thought Galileo Avionica was working with Selex (aren't they under one firm now?) on the Vixen AESA series?

 

[tphuang]

I thought Galileo Avionica was working with Selex (aren't they under one firm now?) on the Vixen AESA series?

doesn't seem like it
http://www.selex-sas.com/datasheets/Vixen500E.pdf
if you read that page, it doesn't seem like the much talked about Vixen 500E is really that impressive in terms of tracking range or detecting range.