Moderated taiwan invasion war game
- Thread starter long live usa
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LMR doesn't have to dominate the battlespace. Their purpose is solely for recon and to shut down command and control. They don't hold ground or attack any fighting formation, but only HQ in depth. Btw it is impossible to dispersed Brigade HQ. Without Brigade HQ you cut out command echelon from battalion to divison HQ. Forcing battalion to fight independent battles with main force.what lunatic is going to undertake a migrating assault with heavy elements first? the chinese only have to look at the last 1000 years of military history to see how thats a flawed process.
amphibious or airborne assault 101. a first year cadet should know that.
it doesn't matter whether they just have backpacks or whether they are geared up like the master chief in Halo3, they still have to insert into hostile battlespace, they still have to manage the battlespace, they still have to compress the battlespace, they still have to dominate the battlespace, they still have to decapitate command and control (which is dispersed), they still have to dislocate entrenched cohesion and committed troops. they still have to demonstrate persistence, and projection and have their logistics train uncompromised to maintain tempo and rythm.
they have to undertake all of this with lateral flair? I don't think so.
all the enthusiasm in the world does not alter basic concepts that have to be attended to before any paratrooper or marine boards their military taxi to cross the straits.
The only trouble is ensuring limited air superiority to ensure heli insertion.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Actually found out Taiwan has at least 400 of the antishipping version of the AGM-114M Hellfire 2. It features a 12.7 Kg blast/fragmentation warhead for use against landing craft and small warships.
Ehe two AH-1W alone will stop the 16 Type 68 on their own.
That Taiwan has at least 400 of this version of the Hellfire and are heavy on MLRS would indicate that above scenario is about right.
The classic Normandy style amphib assault is an anachronism.
Ehe two AH-1W alone will stop the 16 Type 68 on their own.
That Taiwan has at least 400 of this version of the Hellfire and are heavy on MLRS would indicate that above scenario is about right.
The classic Normandy style amphib assault is an anachronism.
Actually Type 68 does not have to be the first wave assult. PLAM des have a large number of amphib assult tanks and IFV that can ferry itself 10-20km from shore. And whats to guarentee the AH-1W won't be engaged by MANPADS? Plus Where will the two AH-1W deploy from and how long does it take to get to the target? PLA will also attempt shore bombarment with MLRS.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
The PLA or PLAM does not have these ships in great numbers. They will be known well in advance to deploy the helos. It's a matter of employment of the helos. MANPADs going to fire at helos up to 9 km away? Who only reveal themselves to fire? That's pretty well guaranteed.
Anyway. It brings in the shorebased ASM batteries. Another layer.
There are no Taiwanese troops on the shore - the PLAN can fire away all they wish. They're inland blocking possible inland incursions.
You have to know where the MRLS are hidden. Say 15-20 km inland? Any surviving observation party in a wide radius will be able to direct the fire.
The hellfires far outreach any MANPAD and they have a good line of sight due to them attacking sea targets.
And the Cobras are also good against an assault with amphibious tanks. As the hellfires are also working against tanks.
They are able to operate from every small flat area which makes surpression by hitting their bases not very practicable and with such a huge helo fleet I suppose that some are available to counter possible landings.
Do the chinese MLRS duds self destruct? If not a clearing of the landing area with MLRS also causes problems for any landing force.
Remember that coalition troops during ODS had problems with passing through areas which have been targeted by MLRS before.
And the Cobras are also good against an assault with amphibious tanks. As the hellfires are also working against tanks.
They are able to operate from every small flat area which makes surpression by hitting their bases not very practicable and with such a huge helo fleet I suppose that some are available to counter possible landings.
Do the chinese MLRS duds self destruct? If not a clearing of the landing area with MLRS also causes problems for any landing force.
Remember that coalition troops during ODS had problems with passing through areas which have been targeted by MLRS before.
Of course they do :nutkick do you have a penchant for killing your own people needlessly?
an amphib or airborne assault is not a recce exercise. the recce exercise happens well before you commit warm and verticals.
its laughable that you think that heli insertion is going to happen under these circumstances. you immediately ignore differences of tempo for all involved assets.
this is not a computer game for a playstation or an xbox. its different in real life.
unless you decaptitate every element of taiwanese command and control, you are going to have to contend with local mobile forces that have substantial advantages over an inserting force. even then, modern militaries encourage independance of mobility in case "plan a" fails when the fog sets in. and fog will set in.
you need to study amphibious/airborne/marine warfare a bit more - esp when you think you are going to do this over a 90k MZ and where you can guarantee military molestation.
any defender is going to be quite happy to see waves of incoming bobbing and chugging transports at point "x" - because at point "x" the enemy is committed and must have saturation follow up to maintain momentum.
that last 12-3 km is going to be hell on earth.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
I think mine (and also gf's) posts were generic enough to cover your posts 184 and 188.
Grand Dan; Your scenarios, unlike the one I posited, takes no account of anything going wrong for your side.
Chinese Air activity; Zero
Placement of Taiwanese defenses; Perfect
PLAN response to the threat; Die in Place
Who is being unrealistic here?
Gun-armed Destroyers and Frigates, which are not in short supply, can dart in very close to shore at the critical time. Rapid-fire cannon of 3 to 5 inches in calibur can wreack havoc with helecopters and infantry alike.
The Hellfires are interesting. With 400, they could take care of a small percentage of of China's tanks, or a lot of the smaller landing ships, or a few of both.
Howerver, splitting the laod between Frag. and Armor piercing rounds will limit their effectivness. If they arrive too late, they can only use AP rounds to kill the tanks. Arrive too early, and they have to fire the Frag.s and then scoot, or risk interception by fighters... if the fighters were not there in the first place (why would they not be covering the all-important landings anyway?)
If they could operate as described, all the better for Taiwan, but due to the split load and the fast that even Hellfires miss on occasion, I would have to subtract 25% from an otherwise elegant and fascinating equation.
Yes, the last few Kilometers will be hell, but don't forget one thing; the Chinese generaly shoot back!
Chinese Air activity; Zero
Placement of Taiwanese defenses; Perfect
PLAN response to the threat; Die in Place
Who is being unrealistic here?
Gun-armed Destroyers and Frigates, which are not in short supply, can dart in very close to shore at the critical time. Rapid-fire cannon of 3 to 5 inches in calibur can wreack havoc with helecopters and infantry alike.
The Hellfires are interesting. With 400, they could take care of a small percentage of of China's tanks, or a lot of the smaller landing ships, or a few of both.
Howerver, splitting the laod between Frag. and Armor piercing rounds will limit their effectivness. If they arrive too late, they can only use AP rounds to kill the tanks. Arrive too early, and they have to fire the Frag.s and then scoot, or risk interception by fighters... if the fighters were not there in the first place (why would they not be covering the all-important landings anyway?)
If they could operate as described, all the better for Taiwan, but due to the split load and the fast that even Hellfires miss on occasion, I would have to subtract 25% from an otherwise elegant and fascinating equation.
Yes, the last few Kilometers will be hell, but don't forget one thing; the Chinese generaly shoot back!
Grand Danois
Entertainer
The thing is - PRC won't have air superiority. PLA will die in place, that's the whole problem with this invasion. And my example is representative - not perfect. The Taiwanese will know when and where the assault occurs. They can commit as they please.
600 HEAT/frag + 400 blast/frag for a total of a 1000. Possibly more.
As gf said. If PLA commit more forces in one point, the Taiwanese commit more (helos). Say 8 Cobras and 4 Kiowas. That's 80 rounds with a fifty-fifty split. You want more? 12 Cobras and 8 Kiowas with 128 rounds. More?
What about the MLRS? They'll stop it on their own.
Dang... one MORE thing!
The landings I envisage woulld happen at sunset, after a full 12-hour day of all-out Air attacks. Not planning on 100% availabilty, or even 90%, but "The world's Largest Air Force" would have to make a serious impact on everything on the Island.
Infrastucture would be my first target. Being PC would not be my highest priority if I was invading a country!!!nfloorl: the PLA never struck me as being the touchey-feely type of organization!
Once again, my biggest worry becomes C3I. Can Air-traffic controlers handle the stress, if every Airfield within range of Taiwan is operating at quadruple capacity?
The landings I envisage woulld happen at sunset, after a full 12-hour day of all-out Air attacks. Not planning on 100% availabilty, or even 90%, but "The world's Largest Air Force" would have to make a serious impact on everything on the Island.
Infrastucture would be my first target. Being PC would not be my highest priority if I was invading a country!!!
nfloorl: the PLA never struck me as being the touchey-feely type of organization!Once again, my biggest worry becomes C3I. Can Air-traffic controlers handle the stress, if every Airfield within range of Taiwan is operating at quadruple capacity?
I'd suggest that you are - you're ignoring the basic fundamentals that an entrenched defender on a large island is better positioned to respond with flexible force... An invading force is committed unless they have absolute dominance. I don't see anything in the public domain data (let alone the less publicly available data) that gives the mainland chinese sufficient advantage.
how? a 90km stretch of (relatively) shallow water? and where the hell are naval guns going to engage infantry? the taiwanese (as has been said ad-nauseum) don't have to commit infantry in exposed areas. where the hell are these "destroyers" going to get up to date co-ordinates of highly mobile but situationally hidden assets?
AP or frag will result in a mobility kill. any idea how much damage a frag round will do to the comms on top of a citadel?
please provide some reference and credible material on how you come to this loss factor.
they can shoot back as much as they like - it doesn't change the basics.
taxis don't have sophisticated FCS or response systems - and that means escorts are necessary.
mobility kill the escorts and wait for the taxis to close in to the 12km limit.
I'd much rather be the taiwanese than the mainland chinese attempting this - by a loooooooooong shot.
I have to say again, some of the stuff you come up with completely defies prev exp and history of how these things work in real life.
you have yet to demonstrate with any credibility how they can even form up - let alone engage in a co-ordinated cross strait event in a contested and violent environment.
The MRLS is a wonderful system... unless you are shooting at a moving target. Ships and tanks can generaly move when they need to. For fighting a Human wave assault, they are awesome. However, I dont see the PLA first wave going that route.
China has helecopter gunships too, and soon will have many more!
What if the PLAN use an indirect approach, or change course at the last minute? The Taiwanese cannot be everywhere at once, nor would it be a good idea for them to try.
China has helecopter gunships too, and soon will have many more!
What if the PLAN use an indirect approach, or change course at the last minute? The Taiwanese cannot be everywhere at once, nor would it be a good idea for them to try.
you haven't even remotely demonstrated that they can insert light forces in sufficient stregth - and to counter and hold against superior ground forces (already provided with and blessed with redundant logistics) - and yet you are talking about heavy metal which needs to be inserted (again) in volume.
Grand Danois
Entertainer
The LZ is a "static target". The PLA won't cross the shoreface fast enough. It's a kill zone - not a kill line. Whatever is lucky enough to get ashore is squeezed in between the shoreline and the blocking taiwanese troops. That's also pretty static. Every PLA unit that isn't close enough to Taiwanese forces are goners.
Change course? That gives plenty of time. The troops won't have to follow and the helos deploy when the point of no return is crossed.
The MLRS are plentiful and have the range. And are temporally the last to be needed - gives time to redeploy.
gf; one last time; WORLD'S LARGEST AIR FORCE.
Not a single post has even addressed this. Why?
Command of the air has been proven to be the decisive issue in every Amphibious assault since 1940. Why not here?
25% subtraction; 1) Helecopters can be shot down 2) Previously stated handicap when you are carrying a mixed load 3) even hellfires can miss, or hit a wave, or missfire... as i am sure the competition pointed out when Taiwan considered bying them in the first place.
As for my credentials, I want to send them in to Webmaster, but he has yet to get back to me with a Fax Number or a PO box.
Not a single post has even addressed this. Why?
Command of the air has been proven to be the decisive issue in every Amphibious assault since 1940. Why not here?
25% subtraction; 1) Helecopters can be shot down 2) Previously stated handicap when you are carrying a mixed load 3) even hellfires can miss, or hit a wave, or missfire... as i am sure the competition pointed out when Taiwan considered bying them in the first place.
As for my credentials, I want to send them in to Webmaster, but he has yet to get back to me with a Fax Number or a PO box.
what do you think GMLRS is?
Ever seen how fast a transport can turn? Again, how are you going to land specialised heavy metal onto a beach head or port when every defending planner will have already done the sums on where the PLA/PLAN can land.
Air won't give you sufficient volume or mass. A look at military history will demonstrate how hard it is. Look at the last time a massed airborne insertion was done. Funnily enough, then note how modern militaries have changed their structure since then.
again, how do you get helos across 90km of contested battlespace?
what? are you serious? how fast can a defender move against an opponent who is coming by sea - or airborne? the movement and opportunities to insert in favourable land are limited.
the taiwanese can be in as many places as necessary - as the necessary favourable places are limited.
the TAC planner should already know this.
I'm having serious doubts as to your background as your responses are very much like some of the nationalistic and enthusiastic kids who sometimes come in here.
you need to demonstrate some coherent structured thought
So what? they still have to demonstrate the basics - and thats hasn't been demonstrated by you by a long shot.
and thats some good motivation for any defender - thanks for reminding the taiwanese what they need to deal with. but once again, killing infrastructure is the dumbest socio-political thing that an army can do, it means the population becomes protective and hostile, and it incurs a rebuilding component against the attacker. Thats why modern militaries are surgical as much as possible. Or are you suggesting that China wants to defy the Hague and Vienna conventions by turning infrastructire into rubble for no other purpose than intimidating the local population. That kind of victor mentality died in the 19th century. The last major modern example of how it doesn't work is Versaille.Infrastucture would be my first target. Being PC would not be my highest priority if I was invading a country!!!
comms is also mobile - and the taiwanese can actually manage the comms battlespace from the other side of the island - or scattered throughout the island. in fact they can have multiple 400k overlapping arcs of view that are way outside PLAAF reach.
Military air traffic controllers regularly do. Besides, they have C4I, not C3I.
In addition, the battlespace is managed redundantly. so where is the problem at a C4I level?
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