And the Taiwanese are going to be so obliging as to give them hours to dandy around transferring soldiers? And you seem to disregard the rather horrid sea conditions that persists in the Taiwan Straits for much of the year. It would be interesting to see them do something like a troop transfer at sea under these conditions!
Moderated taiwan invasion war game
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
Oh. You're right. Forgot about that.
Assuming a beyond horizon distance of, say 30 nm, from the coast and 4 Type 68 servicing each vessel, that's a 6 hour round trip or 100 troops unloaded per hour. With 2400 troops on board, it will be a target for 24 hours. One mine. One or two shore or ship based anti ship missiles. One or two Mavericks...
To increase rate of disembarkation - move closer to the coast.
everyone just assumes that these transport will be engaged.
But with what? According to Taiwan after the first wave of missile and precision air strikes Taiwan has only 50% remaining airpower that only gets spread thin doing CAP and don't forget the PLAN surface fleet that needs to be engaged.
I'd be surprised if Taiwan has any platform left aside from attack helicopters. Which is exactly what Taiwanese DoD was suggesting.
But with what? According to Taiwan after the first wave of missile and precision air strikes Taiwan has only 50% remaining airpower that only gets spread thin doing CAP and don't forget the PLAN surface fleet that needs to be engaged.
I'd be surprised if Taiwan has any platform left aside from attack helicopters. Which is exactly what Taiwanese DoD was suggesting.
Thanks Hallo!
Only 500? Do you count all the new and older types? Mig-19s might not have a large payload, but they do have two very nasty 30mm cannon.
Once again; why is it impossible for the Merchant Marine to serve a useful function? Are you thinking of the Atlantic Conveyor?
Taiwan does not have enough missles to take out all of the ships and aircarft in China, not by a LONG shot!
Since the WW2 US Navy thought that an invasion of Formosa was possible, with the equipment of the day, I am not about to let a few waves stop me!
But what about the Achilles Heel of the whole operation; Control. Can the PRC General Staff manage it, or will they look for some help duiring the lead-up?
Only 500? Do you count all the new and older types? Mig-19s might not have a large payload, but they do have two very nasty 30mm cannon.
Once again; why is it impossible for the Merchant Marine to serve a useful function? Are you thinking of the Atlantic Conveyor?
Taiwan does not have enough missles to take out all of the ships and aircarft in China, not by a LONG shot!
Since the WW2 US Navy thought that an invasion of Formosa was possible, with the equipment of the day, I am not about to let a few waves stop me!
But what about the Achilles Heel of the whole operation; Control. Can the PRC General Staff manage it, or will they look for some help duiring the lead-up?
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Of course. They're fat, juicy targets with a big signature and full of troops that must not get ashore. They have little signature management and other defensive measures. Predictable positions. Lesser on damage control measures. Ineffective disembarkation methods.
That's some of the differences in design from a "secret" assault ship and a purposebuilt.
- Easy to detect
- Easy to kill
- Big impact
- Inferior capability
Say, if Taiwan fires 50-60 antiship missiles and one in three or four gets through - then PLAN's down 15-20 big, fat transports. And tens of thousands of troops in the first wave. Before getting shot up on the way to the beach and gridded away by MRLS in the coastal zone...
I'll agree that the ROCAF fighters will be busy with CAP. Wonder why they want to buy more Mavs...
Why? OK if they present themselves as easy targets - but otherwise, leave them be.
You overestimate how much firepower PRC can project and underestimate how much is left of the Taiwanese forces. Anyhow, one AH-1W Cobra with 8 Hellfires - that's 8 destroyed Type 68 with 1200 PRC assault troops on board. And ROCAF got 63 of those with 1000 Hellfire rounds...
Those helos represent easily displacable firepower that shuts down such an assault ruthlessly.
Do you have a source for that? It lacks context. Also for the ONI quote, btw.
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
Nope. Only the suitable (modern) ones. By that I mean that they can actually achieve something without getting shot down. But if you want to throw in cannon fodder with little impact. How many are operational btw?
Allright. Interlocking and complex. In few words. Design as per above post. Either you're amphib assault or you're not. Just as important is the crew. Needs to be trained in procedures, command, doctrine. Just as training with the actual troops on actual exercises.
Pulling a semi-purpose crew and a semi-purpose ship out of civilian duty, and pushing it into a warzone expecting it to do unfamiliar clockwork operations in an unfamiliar environment, with troops and a battlegroup it has not trained with before...?
But hey!
Taiwan doesn't need to. Take out the key PRC ships and attrit the PRC air forces. Anything that gets ashore - contain and use superior firepower to blast it away. Anything that gets airlifted/airdropped - shot down aircraft, run leftovers over with mech reaction forces.
[edit] 1000 Hawk, 200 PAC-2, Stingers, AMRAAM's, TK I/II, SK I/II, MICA's. There seems to be enough missiles to bleed PLANAF/PLAAF seriously.
Times and technology have changed since then.
You're right. Joint or triservice operations seems to be the focus. It is by no means there yet, at least in terms of technology, but it most likely will. And as long as it is not - then there is little coordination wrt all the concepts proposed here.
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1) Taiwan does not have the platform to engage these targets.
Most shore based missile battery and shore artillary are based in Pung Hu, Jing Ma Islands not in the main island of Taiwan. These outposts bould be the first to be showered by PLA counter battery and long range MLRS. They are so close to mainland china that PLAAF is not necessary.
2) if Taiwan fires 50-60 antiship missiles(shore based? Do they even deploy such a high number?) what's to say that the transport fleet wasn't escorted by PLAN surface fleet? Now then you have to pick and choose your targets which isn't so easy. Decoys (very probable) could be another problem that would further degrade accuracy.
What is the preposed engagement range of these antiship missiles? 50km off shore or even closer? how far can shore based radar detect/aquire targets and how many at once? PLA currently stresses high EW conditions in all exercises and how will this affect command structure? PLA posses Anti radiation missiles and can potentially take out radars at long stand off ranges.
There are too many unknowns to be confident in shore based defence.
I doubt it. It is much more probable that the Sovremenny would end up as escort while providing heavy shore bombarment with the AK130
I guess I do under estimate Taiwan forces but that is because they have not demonstrated the level of professionalism I would have like to see from a modern force. ie the high failure rate of their arsenal and inability of current command structure, and the fact that Taiwan hasn't seen combat in over 60 years. FYI in the last public military exercise in Taiwan, a missile landed within some hundred feet of the viewing deck where their president was situated. Talk about close call. Another example is that when ROCAF was tasked with sinking a capsized commercial chemical tanker in Taiwanese territorial waters, they failed miserably. It literally took two F-16 sorties with 4-2000lb LGB, 2 AH-1W sorties with 8 hellfires and still they could not sink it.
You can find it quite easily in any taiwanese official media sources. It was their justification for looking into purchasing the apache helicopter and reported to the Taiwanese legislative yuan.Do you have a source for that? It lacks context. Also for the ONI quote, btw.
But I must admit I forgot Where I read the ONI report. I wasn't avaliable on the internet though.
1) Taiwan does not have the platform to engage these targets.
Most shore based missile battery and shore artillary are based in Pung Hu, Jing Ma Islands not in the main island of Taiwan. These outposts bould be the first to be showered by PLA counter battery and long range MLRS. They are so close to mainland china that PLAAF is not necessary.
2) if Taiwan fires 50-60 antiship missiles(shore based? Do they even deploy such a high number?) what's to say that the transport fleet wasn't escorted by PLAN surface fleet? Now then you have to pick and choose your targets which isn't so easy. Decoys (very probable) could be another problem that would further degrade accuracy.
What is the preposed engagement range of these antiship missiles? 50km off shore or even closer? how far can shore based radar detect/aquire targets and how many at once? PLA currently stresses high EW conditions in all exercises and how will this affect command structure? PLA posses Anti radiation missiles and can potentially take out radars at long stand off ranges.
There are too many unknowns to be confident in shore based defence.
I doubt it. It is much more probable that the Sovremenny would end up as escort while providing heavy shore bombarment with the AK130
I guess I do under estimate Taiwan forces but that is because they have not demonstrated the level of professionalism I would have like to see from a modern force. ie the high failure rate of their arsenal and inability of current command structure, exercises that are more in tune with pleasing the public eye instead of demonstrating any capability, and the fact that Taiwan hasn't seen combat in over 60 years. FYI in the last public military exercise in Taiwan, a missile landed within some hundred feet of the viewing deck where their president was situated. Talk about close call. Another example is that when ROCAF was tasked with sinking a capsized commercial chemical tanker in Taiwanese territorial waters, they failed miserably. It literally took two F-16 2 sorties with 4-2000lb LGB, 2 AH-1W sorties with 8 hellfires and still they could not sink it.
You can find it quite easily in any taiwanese official media sources. It was their justification for looking into purchasing the apache helicopter and reported to the Taiwanese legislative yuan.Do you have a source for that? It lacks context. Also for the ONI quote, btw.
But I must admit I forgot Where I read the ONI report. I wasn't avaliable on the internet though.
Maj. Gen. Ke Hsi-hsiung said if the Taiwan was to take measures such as hardening of airfields and purchase of rapid repair kits for run way.
It by no means guarentee that only 30% would be lost and Taiwan has yet to harden any airfields to attack though it has made the purchase of some run way repair kits.
I'd be interested to see the credible source for this comment.
I'm more than interested to see who is making "runway repair kits"
Runways aren't like bicycle tubes....
abramsteve
New Member
At least you wouldnt have to pump them fall of water to see where the hole is!!
What, other than the obvious, is included in a 'runway repair kit'?
What, other than the obvious, is included in a 'runway repair kit'?
well, I guess you go to the local taiwanese walmart and buy your runway repair kit consisting of:
1 x BDA expert to do a quote
"nn" metres of reinforcing rods
"nn" cubic metres of asphalt
"nn" cubic metres of sand
tip trucks
water truck
heavy rollers
vibrator rollers
2 dozen council workers
4 "lollipop men" to keep out the onlookers
2 x toyota hi-aces doubling as mini buses
all at the bargain basement price of "nn" taiwanese dollars for each hole...
nfloorl:The Taiwanese will deploy layers of defense, like an onion being peeled, with the end result being combat ineffective Chinese units will be stranded and isolated, very possibly cut off from re-supply.
We had a similar strategy in NATO during the Cold War. We called it "forward defense".
Cobras have been mentioned and are a case in point. They would be deployed ruthlessly against Chinese armor, maybe even against landing craft. The Chinese may very well be able to secure local control of a piece of Taiwan's real estate but will they be able to consolidate and expand it? Especially against Taiwan's forward defense in depth?
In other words the Chinese gaining of a beach would not be an end all of the game. They might plant the flag on a beach or two and still end up regretting doing so. In fact one can almost assume it at this point in time.
Taiwan has difficult terrain for an enemy force to maneuver in. Lots of rivers, bridges, mountain passes, swampy rice fields, narrow beaches, and a whole lot of city death traps for invading forces. Such terrain would be a nightmare for an invading force and a huge aid for a indigenous defensive force who knows it intimately. And at the very least Taiwan would have access to Americas Intel machine.
But take a good look at Taiwan's terrain sometime. It isn't exactly a Euro-Fulda gap for armor brigades to go charging thru.
We had a similar strategy in NATO during the Cold War. We called it "forward defense".
Cobras have been mentioned and are a case in point. They would be deployed ruthlessly against Chinese armor, maybe even against landing craft. The Chinese may very well be able to secure local control of a piece of Taiwan's real estate but will they be able to consolidate and expand it? Especially against Taiwan's forward defense in depth?
In other words the Chinese gaining of a beach would not be an end all of the game. They might plant the flag on a beach or two and still end up regretting doing so. In fact one can almost assume it at this point in time.
Taiwan has difficult terrain for an enemy force to maneuver in. Lots of rivers, bridges, mountain passes, swampy rice fields, narrow beaches, and a whole lot of city death traps for invading forces. Such terrain would be a nightmare for an invading force and a huge aid for a indigenous defensive force who knows it intimately. And at the very least Taiwan would have access to Americas Intel machine.
But take a good look at Taiwan's terrain sometime. It isn't exactly a Euro-Fulda gap for armor brigades to go charging thru.
abramsteve
New Member
Ahh I see, thats pretty high tech, military specific stuff... That would require specialised industry as well, like hardware stores....well, I guess you go to the local taiwanese walmart and buy your runway repair kit consisting of:
1 x BDA expert to do a quote
"nn" metres of reinforcing rods
"nn" cubic metres of asphalt
"nn" cubic metres of sand
tip trucks
water truck
heavy rollers
vibrator rollers
2 dozen council workers
4 "lollipop men" to keep out the onlookers
2 x toyota hi-aces doubling as mini buses
all at the bargain basement price of "nn" taiwanese dollars for each hole...
Last time when I was in Taiwan there were reports in the press about the air force about how they train to use the highways as secondary airstrips.
We did the same during cold war. With some prepositioned equipment you get a bunch of reserve airstrips with such a method.
We did the same during cold war. With some prepositioned equipment you get a bunch of reserve airstrips with such a method.
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
There cant be that many 4000ft dead streight and flat paved roads around can there? How many did you guys plan to use?
I have no idea how many of these provisional highway airstrips Taiwan has. And I think this is not public info. But I think they should get 2 to 4 additional airstrips out of their highway network.
http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/countries_map/map-picture/taiwan.jpg
We had enough. But don't ask me for numbers.
Our Autobahn network is the third largest of the world behind the US and China.
http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/countries_map/map-picture/taiwan.jpg
We had enough. But don't ask me for numbers.
Our Autobahn network is the third largest of the world behind the US and China.
LOL maybe people just wasn't paying attention...well, I guess you go to the local taiwanese walmart and buy your runway repair kit consisting of:
1 x BDA expert to do a quote
"nn" metres of reinforcing rods
"nn" cubic metres of asphalt
"nn" cubic metres of sand
tip trucks
water truck
heavy rollers
vibrator rollers
2 dozen council workers
4 "lollipop men" to keep out the onlookers
2 x toyota hi-aces doubling as mini buses
all at the bargain basement price of "nn" taiwanese dollars for each hole...
Rapid Mat U.S. LLC/Starflite Inc. was awarded a $43,050,924 to provide for the Rapid Runway Repair (RRR) System for Taiwan in 2002
I can't post any URL still...
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