SSN-27 "Sizzler"

rabs

New Member
I was wondering if any of you had some more information on this missile, i tried wikipedia and didn't get anything. I'm curious because of a sniper i saw on another message board whose facts seem to line up.

The U.S. Navy, after nearly six years of warnings from Pentagon testers, still lacks a plan for defending aircraft carriers against a supersonic Russian-built missile, according to current and former officials and Defense Department documents.
The missile, known in the West as the ``Sizzler,'' has been deployed by China and may be purchased by Iran. Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England has given the Navy until April 29 to explain how it will counter the missile, according to a Pentagon budget document.
The Defense Department's weapons-testing office judges the threat so serious that its director, Charles McQueary, warned the Pentagon's chief weapons-buyer in a memo that he would move to stall production of multibillion-dollar ship and missile programs until the issue was addressed.

On final approach, the missile ``has the potential to perform very high defensive maneuvers,'' including sharp-angled dodges.
This is a very low-flying, fast missile.
Is this missile truly a threat to the USN and do no countermeasures exist against it?
 

JBodnar39

New Member
I don't see the big hoopla over this missle. I doubt if the guidance system si any better (or even as good as) that on the Harpoon Blk2. Its range is attributed to its larger size. Sure it is probably a good missle, but nothing "super advanced" like these littel news releases always try to make them out to be
 

Chrom

New Member
I don't see the big hoopla over this missle. I doubt if the guidance system si any better (or even as good as) that on the Harpoon Blk2. Its range is attributed to its larger size. Sure it is probably a good missle, but nothing "super advanced" like these littel news releases always try to make them out to be
Hmm, so "super advanced" in your understanding is restricted exactly ONLY to "super advanced guidance unit"? A bit shortsighted IMO. Besides, you dont even know - guidance unit may be INDEED super advanced %) After all, even 25 years ago USSR managed to field cooperative target recognition guidance for "Granit" and "Basalt" missiles. These attack in "wolf pack" when one missile could take the "guide" high-flying role detecting and distributing targets to low-flying missiles. If this "guide" is destroyed, another missile is delegated to that role. This is just example of what could be achieved. Dont underestimate russians.
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
Dont underestimate russians.
Neither overestimate them. Guidance system of the SS-N-27 may or may not be super advanced. A reliable statement can only be made with live testing.
Sure it is a good missile because of its multi-platform and multi-payload capability, but concerning the guidance system, we haven't enough information yet. (or give good sources plz!:cool:)

And concerning the wolf pack capability of the Granit, from a algorithmic and logical way, it remains simple. That is not the case for advanced ECCM/discrimination/target recognition algorithms.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
according to Kanwa back when PLAN was purchasing klub, it only demonstrated successful hits on 15 out of 20 attempts. And they also had some problem going from subsonic to supersonic. Anyway, guidance is definitely not the greatest out there.
 

JBodnar39

New Member
I guess the point I was trying to make, is that we see a lot of these press releases from producing countries on things like the SS-N-27 and the Brhamos, stating that they are the end all to anti-ship missles, and we just don't know. I have little doubt that they are effective systems. The Russians have always produced some great weapons systems and India's defense industry is coming along. However, Russia - historically - has not produced weapons systems that are as advanced as those made by the west.

I must admit that I am certainly no expert on the defense industry, however it seems to me that a country's ability to make sophisticated weapons sytems on a large production scale is going to be related to the country's industrial base, experience in the defense industry, and economic structure.

Harpoon works. To my knowledge a harpoon has never missed its target (albiet in low intensity situations) with one exception and that was against an Iranian missle boat that had sunk so far that what was left of it above the water did not give the missle a target. We do not know it the Russian ASMs work, because they have not be used in combat.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Styx ASMs have been used by Egyptian missile boats and sank a Israeli destroyer (Or was it a frigate?) in the past.
 

Rich

Member
I guess the point I was trying to make, is that we see a lot of these press releases from producing countries on things like the SS-N-27 and the Brhamos, stating that they are the end all to anti-ship missles, and we just don't know. I have little doubt that they are effective systems. The Russians have always produced some great weapons systems and India's defense industry is coming along. However, Russia - historically - has not produced weapons systems that are as advanced as those made by the west.
Ive been around defense since the '70s. It always been hard to gauge the effectiveness of Russian systems because "they" over-sell them", and we "over-sell" them, in order to get taxpayer money for the new gee-whizes of our industry. Add to that the Industrial/Military/Govt. feeling that the end justifies the means which means they also will downgrade a threat. Feeling as they do that they dont want to alarm the public, or even worse, put in danger the systems they have attached their careers to.

In other words there's a lot of horse manure flung around in this industry. We see many shades of grey and its hard to get a true picture.

I must admit that I am certainly no expert on the defense industry, however it seems to me that a country's ability to make sophisticated weapons systems on a large production scale is going to be related to the country's industrial base, experience in the defense industry, and economic structure.
Yes and no. Much depends on what systems they are applying their available resources to. The Russians have always been pretty good at stealing technology, making do with what they have and improvising, and absolutely applying their largest resources on systems they have identified as top priority to their defense. Ashm's have always been high on that list, as have launch platforms. In fact, you could call these missiles and their platforms THE Doctrine of their conventional naval forces.

Harpoon works. To my knowledge a harpoon has never missed its target (albiet in low intensity situations) with one exception and that was against an Iranian missle boat that had sunk so far that what was left of it above the water did not give the missle a target. We do not know it the Russian ASMs work, because they have not be used in combat.
Yes, Harpoon-ll is a very good missile. Best of all its far smaller then the Russian AshMs and we can both carry and shoot gobs of them on gobs of platforms. We have variations of Harpoon that have a much longer range, and, between all the variations they have about every guidance type system we own. In other words any country taking us on would be facing a arsenal of 6,000 Harpoons/Slam/Slam'ers that can be launched by almost every warship we own, by every carrier attack aircraft, and by B-52 versions.

The Harpoon-ll is so good we can tell it exactly where on the ship to hit. Its very good against ships in port or in littorals and since its RCS is far smaller then the big Russian missiles it can be a problem to spot. Best of all an enemy is going to get a few dozen heading their way. We could easily use hundreds against an enemy.

I know the Russians are making a version of this missile for their Kilo submarines but its far smaller with far less range. And the boat would still have the problem of penetrating a Carriers protective screen, with the whole shebang whizzing around at 25 knots, and getting within 30 or 40 clicks to fire it.

The longer range versions have the same problems other Russian missile platforms have always have. What good is a 300 KL range missile when a Yank submarine, super-Hornet, or surface ship is destroying your firing platform 500 KLs from the carrier? Besides, almost all the countries the Russians are selling these things to will never know where in hell the carriers are in the first place.

And a missile that only goes supersonic in its end game is going to have to get by protective assets while still in subsonic mode. And we aint stupid enough to put a super carrier into littoral waters so hazardous during war time. Thats why we have Bombers and Allies we can stage the USAF from.

So really this new gee-whiz missile is just a new chapter to an old game. We have been playing this game of chess a long time with the Russians and now with ESSM-SeaRam coming on line it will be their turn to move the pieces. Besides actually shooting down the AshM isn't the only way we have of defeating it. We have decoys, chaff clouds...ect Truth is we've been practicing against super-sonic missiles for awhiles.

And its not like a war with the USN would be a missile vs missile war. An enemy would have to take on the combined Intel/Targeting/Networkcentric/stealth/firepower assets of the entire US Military.

A threat? Yes! A reason to run around the table, screaming with your hair on fire, gulping Prozac? No!
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I think you are getting a little too excited here. Agree with most of your points, but.
I know the Russians are making a version of this missile for their Kilo submarines but its far smaller with far less range. And the boat would still have the problem of penetrating a Carriers protective screen, with the whole shebang whizzing around at 25 knots, and getting within 30 or 40 clicks to fire it.
This part is not true. The sub launched version is not any smaller or have less range.
And a missile that only goes supersonic in its end game is going to have to get by protective assets while still in subsonic mode. And we aint stupid enough to put a super carrier into littoral waters so hazardous during war time. Thats why we have Bombers and Allies we can stage the USAF from.
actually, it makes a lot more sense to go subsonic before the last 30nm. Going supersonic would just force it to go high altitude for most of the way, making it much easier to detect. I mean it can be intercepted in its cruise mode travelling low and subsonic, but just harder.
So really this new gee-whiz missile is just a new chapter to an old game. We have been playing this game of chess a long time with the Russians and now with ESSM-SeaRam coming on line it will be their turn to move the pieces. Besides actually shooting down the AshM isn't the only way we have of defeating it. We have decoys, chaff clouds...ect Truth is we've been practicing against super-sonic missiles for awhiles.
you still must treat this threat seriously. And remember, there is no reason it can only be used against a carrier. Any of the other escorts are also fair game.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
uhm.

The USN doesn't actually use the Harpoon II, the US exports the Harpoon II to allies but does not have an inventory itself. Look it up.

Otherwise the Harpoon II is considered one of the best anti-ship missiles in the world. There are good debates regarding supersonic vs subsonic, with strengths and weaknesses of both.

The US version of the Harpoon I is substancially upgraded and comes in various modes. In FY2006 the USN began R&D funding for the Harpoon III.

The Harpoon I has missed targets, in Operation Preying Mantis (1987) the Iranians fired a Harpoon at the USN cruiser Bainbridge at short range, the missile was averted by the Cruiser's use of Chaff. The Cruiser then sunk the attacking Iranian ship with 3-4 Standard missiles.

As for the SS-N-27 I personally think it is a good concept combining the best of supersonic and subsonic missile systems, but I have no information regarding the weapons systems electronic kit. No matter how fast or how massive the payload is of an anti-ship missile, the weapons effectiveness in modern naval combat today is almost always determined by its electronic kit, not speed or payload.
 

Rich

Member
This part is not true. The sub launched version is not any smaller or have less range.
Yes and no. They make two versions. One of which, the subsonic variant, has longer range. While the one that goes supersonic at the end has shorter range. While there are differences in the weight and size of the different types of the missile, overall I'd say you are right and I made a mistake.
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/navalmissile/3m54.asp
 

Chrom

New Member
Neither overestimate them. Guidance system of the SS-N-27 may or may not be super advanced. A reliable statement can only be made with live testing.
Sure it is a good missile because of its multi-platform and multi-payload capability, but concerning the guidance system, we haven't enough information yet. (or give good sources plz!:cool:)

And concerning the wolf pack capability of the Granit, from a algorithmic and logical way, it remains simple. That is not the case for advanced ECCM/discrimination/target recognition algorithms.
Huh, but by you own logic anything USA produces also cant be named "advanced" as we dont know yet and require proof bla-bla-bla. At least for SS-N-27 we have hard facts about them - they superior speed. About Granits we have facts about "wolf-pack" attack and on-board ECM suite (which other missile have that?).

What facts we have about Harpoon? Manufacturer claims what its guidance unit is "super-advanced" and "ECM-protected"? Claims about "ECCM/discrimination/target recognition algorithms" (what other missile DONT have that?)? How much advanced is "advanced"? See my point?

In these unsertain cases we should use common logic and past experience. Past experience with declassiffied stuff showed what USSR was able to match USA in guidance systems 40 years ago, 30 years ago, and 20 years ago. There is absolutly no reason why Russia will be behind now.
 
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Chrom

New Member
I However, Russia - historically - has not produced weapons systems that are as advanced as those made by the west.

I must admit that I am certainly no expert on the defense industry, however it seems to me that a country's ability to make sophisticated weapons sytems on a large production scale is going to be related to the country's industrial base, experience in the defense industry, and economic structure.
.
It is a very right phrase.
But, learn history better. In many cases Russia produced high-tech weapons what was decades ahead of West examples. Only few for you: HMS, off-boresight missiles, phased arrays radars on fighters, datalink on fighters, composite armor on tanks (lol chobham), APFSDS (huh), SAM's, ASM's (Yea!), gun-launched ATGM's, ERA, active IFV protection systems, etc, etc.

You are very wrong assuming what USSR industry was behind West, Its was certainly behind in civilian light industry sector, but not in military and heavy industry sector. Not in scientific sector. By the early 80x USSR GDP was about 60% of USA GDP - and much larger percernt was spend on scientific, military and heavy industry needs.
 

rabs

New Member
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If your trying to say that the USSR was ahead of the US in all those areas you are sadly sadly disillusioned.

The Russians have yet to build anything comparable to front line Abrams or Apaches. Even some Russian scientist agree that thier electronics are nearly a decade behind. Were is the AESA equipped Russian production fighter, that people have actually seen. Or a truly VLS warship.
 

Chrom

New Member
If your trying to say that the USSR was ahead of the US in all those areas you are sadly sadly disillusioned.

The Russians have yet to build anything comparable to front line Abrams or Apaches. Even some Russian scientist agree that thier electronics are nearly a decade behind. Were is the AESA equipped Russian production fighter, that people have actually seen. Or a truly VLS warship.
Yes USSR was ahead in fielding these technological achievments. However should you ask me if USSR was ahead of USA in general tank building - then no, generally not ahead. But not behind either. Sometimes russian tanks was much better than USA ones (later 60x,70x). Sometimes they was nearly equal (later 80,90) . Some things was better on russian tanks, other was better on american. T-80B and T-64B was undoublty both better armored and armed than base M1, T-80U was more than a match for M1A1. Hind is a class of its own in attack helos - i could safely also say what West dont have anything comparable. Again, SOME USA weapons was/is better than russian, SOME Russian weapons was/is better than american.
 

Rich

Member
You are very wrong assuming what USSR industry was behind West, Its was certainly behind in civilian light industry sector, but not in military and heavy industry sector. Not in scientific sector. By the early 80x USSR GDP was about 60% of USA GDP - and much larger percernt was spend on scientific, military and heavy industry needs.
Quoting Soviet GNP is like doing a magicians trick. The Russians in the Old Soviet Union had a saying, "they pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work". "Behind in the civilian industry sector"? Their entire industry sector was mismanaged and produced sub level products.

On the other hand they were quite brilliant at making do with what they had and improvisation. And for any defense industry manager avoiding the Gulag was a powerful incentive. They had a knack for designing fine simplicity and making the simplicity work.

They have generally been behind the west in aircraft, submarines, carriers, radars, targeting, software, communications, EL INTEL, and just about every other high tech area. In the 50's, 60's, and even into the 70's, that wasnt as much of a problem, nor was there as much disparity. But now? In the 21'st? Its a sure way to lose a modern war.
 

Chrom

New Member
Quoting Soviet GNP is like doing a magicians trick. The Russians in the Old Soviet Union had a saying, "they pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work". "Behind in the civilian industry sector"? Their entire industry sector was mismanaged and produced sub level products.
That is wrong. Most products was as good as any other West products. Of course, USSR lacked high-quality CIVILIAN goods becouse of they political system (no rich mans, little luxury) - but how many peoples in the West actually buys these high-quality goods? I'm sure 80% just buy usuall cheap stuff. But in the cases where quality DID matter USSR was perfectrly able to match and surpass West in quality. Space program is one example, aviation is another, SAM's, etc.
On the other hand they were quite brilliant at making do with what they had and improvisation. And for any defense industry manager avoiding the Gulag was a powerful incentive. They had a knack for designing fine simplicity and making the simplicity work.
You know, GULAG was closed after Stalins death, ya? More than 50 years ago? Besides, if russian enginiers was that good 30 years ago, why they should suddently become that much worse now?

They have generally been behind the west in aircraft, submarines, carriers, radars, targeting, software, communications, EL INTEL, and just about every other high tech area. In the 50's, 60's, and even into the 70's, that wasnt as much of a problem, nor was there as much disparity. But now? In the 21'st? Its a sure way to lose a modern war.
Define "generally". Russian civilian airlines was as good as West ones. They passenger flow was comparable with any developed country, 40% of ALL civilian aircrafts by year 1980 was produced in USSR or affillated countries. If it is not success when i dont know what is. Again, radar. Show me electronically scanned arrays radar on any USA fighter 25 years ago? 10 years ago? Hum? Yes, after 20-years development USA finally was able to field something better than old soviet PESA. Really ahead, ya! Again, datalinks, HMS, etc - all these are PURE ELECTRONIC AND AVIONICS. USA was DECADES behind USSR in fielding these technologies. So, dont be fooled by common BBC & Fox News propaganda.
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
What facts we have about Harpoon? Manufacturer claims what its guidance unit is "super-advanced" and "ECM-protected"?
Hey, I did not say that! I never claimed that Harpoon was so advanced. But look, if I were a destroyer designer, and that I have to choose between two ASuW missiles, the Harpoon II and the SSN 27...
The Harpoon made its proof during multiple real engagments, not the SSN 27, so I'm not going to run a risk by installing SSN 27 on my Destroyer, I will choose Harpoon (which is lighter moreover)! But the fact is I am French, so instead I will choose Exocet MM40 Block 3 for political reasons and standardisation. But perhaps its a mistake, because even if MBDA is claiming its Exocet as being a very advanced missile, it has not been war proven yet!

what USSR was able to match USA in guidance systems 40 years ago, 30 years ago, and 20 years ago.
I don't really understand that point when F-15 with Amraam active missiles (wich are fire-and-forget) were fielded besides Su-27 that only operate the Alamo series of semi-active guided missile.

But I do agree that the R-73 combined with the Helmet targeting capability was great.
 
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