UK sailors captured at gunpoint

[jaffo4011]

Fifteen British Navy personnel have been captured at gunpoint by Iranian forces, the Ministry of Defence says.

The men were seized at 1030 local time when they boarded a boat in the Gulf, off the coast of Iraq, which they suspected was smuggling cars.

The Royal Navy said the men, who were on a routine patrol in Iraqi waters, were understood to be unharmed.

The Foreign Office has demanded the immediate and safe return of the men, who are based on HMS Cornwall.

The frigate's commander, Commodore Nick Lambert, said he was hoping there had been a "simple mistake" over territorial waters.

"There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they [British personnel] were in Iraqi territorial waters. Equally, the Iranians may claim they were in Iranian territorial waters.

"We may well find that this is a simple misunderstanding at the tactical level."

Helicopters had reported seeing two British boats being moved along the Shatt al-Arab waterway to Iranian bases and there had been no evidence of fighting, he added.

dont like the look of this.....................

 

[merocaine]

It would make a great musical! It has all the ingredients, evil mullahs, brave brits, navies, savy spokesmen, glamous location, the staging would be a bitch though.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

It would make a great musical! It has all the ingredients, evil mullahs, brave brits, navies, savy spokesmen, glamous location, the staging would be a bitch though.

Thanks for making light of a serious situation, merocaine. Or maybe the thought of being paraded on Iranian State TV blindfolded and being made to apologise for something you never did is ok to you? That's what happened last time.

 

[merocaine]

no they werent forced to apologise for anything, but they were shown blind fold on TV, the horror. After contacts between Jack Straw and the Iranians they were released.

They'll be released tomorrow or the next, no harm done. I'll eat humble pie if they arent.

edit - they were forced to apologise my mistake

 

[Rich]

It would make a great musical! It has all the ingredients, evil mullahs, brave brits, navies, savy spokesmen, glamous location, the staging would be a bitch though.

I bet blowing up their entire navy would would put an end to this type of horse manure.

 

[Lucasnz]

I bet blowing up their entire navy would would put an end to this type of horse manure.

No; The UK is far more devious in solving problems like this, though pity help Iran if any thing happens to those service personnel.

 

[merocaine]

this lifted from yahoo news

In June 2004, six British marines and two sailors were seized by Iran in the Shatt al-Arab. They were presented blindfolded on Iranian television and admitted entering Iranian waters illegally, then released unharmed after three days.

Vali Nasr, a senior fellow for Middle East Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, suggested that the latest detentions may be Iranian retaliation for the arrest of five Iranians in a U.S.-led raid in northern Iraq in January. The U.S. said the five included a Revolutionary Guards general.

"I think Iran sees this as retaliation for the arrest of their own personnel. They have repeatedly said that they want their personnel released," Nasr said. "So they are either signalling that they can do the same thing or they are trying to bring attention to it."

I bet blowing up their entire navy would would put an end to this type of horse manure.

well that would be the curtain raiser on a much wider conflict, if you'll forgive the pun.

its hard to know if this is planned or just some elements acting without express orders.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

edit - they were forced to apologise my mistake

That's one pie you have to eat already.

 

[merocaine]

That's one pie you have to eat already.

...yummy...

 

[Galrahn]

Couple things here:

This is a great example how littoral warfare is so dangerous. These 15 sailors were from a Type 22 if I'm not mistaken. Imagine if this was a US LCS, 15 people of 85 max would have been around 18% of the total crew.

It is time to review the Rules of Engagement. Whether they worked out in this case or not has not been determined, but something clearly stopped the sailors from protecting themselves in time and allowed them to get captured.

This isn't the first such incident with UK sailors. One question is why this doesn't happen with US Sailors, are the ROE different or is there some other factor that holds back the Iranians from messing with the US sailors? What makes this a repeat action against RN sailors? It is something that should be seriously considered, after all, the 21st century represents the first century in several centuries that a nation would even attempt to mess around with Royal Navy sailors and expect no consequences.

And mark my words, it is unlikely there will be any consequences, because Iran already got their photo and parade, the humiliation of the RN has already been achieved. While I think it is very fair to say that had the sailors defended themselves this would be a major international incident, which may or may not have made the RN look good politically, it is also equally fair to say that had they defended themselves it would likely be the last time RN sailors are taken hostage by the Iranians and humiliated on state sponsored public TV.

Is it just me, or do events like this remind anyone of the USS Chesapeake - HMS Leopard Affair? The US public response to that incident ran every British warship out of every American port within days, nearly prematurely starting the War of 1812, and in the end resulted in a terrible political response by the US that hurt the US more than it did the British who at the time had committed the abduction of sailors.

Will history repeat itself?

Somehow, even with the improvement in communication through technology, I get a feeling the British response will be much more timid by comparison, and by the end of the month the whole thing will be all but forgotten by the politicians who don't want to deal with it. After all, the British government is very keen on history, and if they learned from the mistakes of Thomas Jefferson, and were to try to find a diplomatic and economic solution to a military problem, they know the results would simply end in failure.

I'm not advocating war between Iran and the UK, but I would certainly "adjust" the rules of engagement to insure no more hostages and make it crystal clear the adjustment has taken place. Then the Iranians can start picking on the Italians, French, Australians, and other nations who secure the sea for Iranian oil.

Finally, I admit I am being more than a bit cynical in this post, intentionally, and I hope no one is offended too much by it. The Royal Navy is too important an institution to the safety of the sea for all nations to be pushed around so openly and publicly while their nations leadership does nothing, but alas, I feel exactly that is what is happening.

 

[merocaine]

I was wondering what the rules of engagement were? does anyone know?

There is also the possiblity that the British were in Iranian territory, those things happen, maybe they knew that and thats why they did'ent defend themselves, the fair cop gov theory.

I think we all know why it doesent happen with the Americans.....

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

There is also the possiblity that the British were in Iranian territory, those things happen, maybe they knew that and thats why they did'ent defend themselves, the fair cop gov theory.

If that was the case the British government, Royal Navy and MoD wouldn't be protesting so much that they were in Iraqi waters - they didn't last time as it was a lot more uncertain.

I think we all know why it doesent happen with the Americans.....

That's because the Yanks routinely shoot first and ask questions later - the Iranians know better than to try it on with them.

 

[radiosilence]

I think the British servicemen will be release soon. They were taken from Shatt-al-Arab, a 120-mile stretch of salt marsh disputed between Iraq and Iran. The Situation is so tense in Gulf between Iran and Coalition forces, a simple misunderstanding could lead to a wide-scale conflict.

 

[Rich]

If that was the case the British government, Royal Navy and MoD wouldn't be protesting so much that they were in Iraqi waters - they didn't last time as it was a lot more uncertain.

That's because the Yanks routinely shoot first and ask questions later - the Iranians know better than to try it on with them.

I think the Iranians know that Bush is laying for them to screw up good. Not that it matters, the Brits are our allies and the Iranians need to be taught a lesson. This isnt the first time they have pulled this crap, believe me I for one haven't forgotten. They'd have a real problem pulling this stunt on Yanks.

Bush admires Ronald Reagan. Remember how Reagan responded to Qaddafi's antics? He sent a bunch of F-111s after him to murder him in his tent. Then we blew up a bunch of gunboats, MIGs, and made him eventually eat crow.

What this is about is that we are holding some Iranians for smuggling arms into the hands of Iraqi terrorists. Thats what this is about. And the Iranians know Blair is soft on using force against Iran.

I say we target something bright and shiney that cost them about $40 million and blow the thing to hell.

We'll never learn will we?

 

[overlander]

this incident shows that now britain is no longer a superpower, because of heavy cuts in the past 30 years the Royal Navy has been reduced to an important navy but nothing more, why as somedy wrote before they never captured american or even french sailors because they know that the consequences would be terrible but with a decadent royal navy they will have any problem and as we can see now the reductions in the r.n. will follow, mothballing of ships, no order for new carriers, possible cut in the escort force etc etc, so i think that it,s not possible to mantain a global presence for a r.n. wich has not enough capabililities nor the political support of the british government to be a strong force to follow being deployed in so many places without adequate cover, they have to be pendant of american or french help, for example they are no longer able to mount any operation similar to falklands simply because they have not air cover with the withdrawal of sea harriers, the invincible is mothballed in reserve, they place ark royal as an LPH and the only operational carrier is illustrious with 16 harriers gr9, inadequate for air defence only for ground attack, if british government doesn,t want to spend money in defence they have to withdraw commitments
everywhere and send all forces to U.K. in a mere defence role that is what the british forces are being reduced to, otherwise the life of british soldiers, sailors, etc will be in risk.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

this incident shows that now britain is no longer a superpower....

First of all there is only one superpower in the world - the US. No one has ever believed that the UK was still one.

Second this isn't down to downsizing of the navy - it's down to poor co-ordination and strategy. There was no reason that I know of why HMS Cornwall could not have been in proximity to the operation, nor why the helicopter providing support could not spot the Iranians/and or drive them off (it would have been bloody obvious what they were going to do, given the 2004 stunt).

The idea that only the Royal Navy is a target is ridiculous. With the assets available the situation could have been avoided by a more thoughtful approach. Unless the captain of the Cornwall has a very good explanation as to why a frigate and its helicopter couldn't see the Iranians coming/protect his men, he may find his promotion prospects seriously limited.

overlander, I notice that you spend all your time on these forums down-talking the Royal Navy - is your mission to make it seem worse than it really is? The idea that the RN is in a singular position of contempt around the world has no credibility. Or would you have prefered Cornwall to blow up those patrol boats as soon as they appeared, giving the Iranians an excuse to cause general mayhem in the region and kick off a war Mahmoud Ahmadinejad may secretly long for?

 

[contedicavour]

The Iranian Pasdaran captured the British sailors because they think it makes good bargaining power vs the UN Security Council who is supposed to come up now with a beefed up resolution with some serious sanctions.
It could also be an answer to the US order to capture or shoot any Iranian agent caught supporting guerrillas and terrorists inside Iraq.
Last but not least it could also be another attack on Blair so that the UK accelerates its retreat from Iraq, thus leaving the US virtually alone...

What astonishes me most is that the sailors weren't armed or in a position to defend themselves, especially from Pasdaran elements who are more a militia than regular armed forces and could almost be assimilated with Iraqi Shi'ite guerrillas...

I'm wondering if somebody in Teheran really controls what the Pasdarans do on the Iraqi border !!

 

[merocaine]

Just read this article

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1530527.ece

London times, if this is true those sailors might have been taken as a way of putting pressure on the Americans, or it could be rubbish.

 

[radiosilence]

The Iranian Pasdaran captured the British sailors because they think it makes good bargaining power vs the UN Security Council who is supposed to come up now with a beefed up resolution with some serious sanctions. It could also be an answer to the US order to capture or shoot any Iranian agent caught supporting guerrillas and terrorists inside Iraq.

If this is really the Iranian intentions, they are seriously mistaken. Incidents like this is turning world opinion against them and emboldening the hawks who are beating the war drums.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

The Iranian Pasdaran captured the British sailors because they think it makes good bargaining power vs the UN Security Council who is supposed to come up now with a beefed up resolution with some serious sanctions.

An Iranian professor interviewed by the BBC suggested that was nonsense - I agree, it could only stiffen UN resolve.

Last but not least it could also be another attack on Blair so that the UK accelerates its retreat from Iraq, thus leaving the US virtually alone...

Then the Iranians are very stupid - we don't back down in the face of bullying.

What astonishes me most is that the sailors weren't armed or in a position to defend themselves, especially from Pasdaran elements who are more a militia than regular armed forces and could almost be assimilated with Iraqi Shi'ite guerrillas...

They were armed, but only for searching suspect ships. They use small boats that can be brought on board their base-frigate - the Iranians use larg patrol boats that have heavy-duty cannons. If the sailors and marines had tried to fight back they would have been massacred.

I'm wondering if somebody in Teheran really controls what the Pasdarans do on the Iraqi border !!

Of course it does - they were taken directly to Tehran for "questioning". It was probably organised by the central government.