Argentine mirage 2000 purchase

atkins3570

New Member
I've been reading this site for a while about the possible purchase of Mirage 2000-5 by Argentina. What about military offers from Russia? Does anyone have any details on that? Would'nt the SU-30 be a better choice for Argentina since it is a maritime country?
Any thoughts?

Cheers
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
I've been reading this site for a while about the possible purchase of Mirage 2000-5 by Argentina. What about military offers from Russia? Does anyone have any details on that? Would'nt the SU-30 be a better choice for Argentina since it is a maritime country?
Any thoughts?

Cheers

While not being an expert in this area, I'll make a few comments.

I guess on the face of it having an aircraft like the SU30 in service would provide some real benefits to the Argentinean Air Force, range, performance, etc.

However everything I read says that the Argentinean Air Force is a professional air arm and will have to know what it wants, and how it wants to achieve it with the resources available.

Bearing this in mind, lets not forget that the while the SU30 has a good reputation while in the air there are also lots of evidence to suggest that the effort to keep it operation is much more than is required with the equivalent western aircraft.

Also the report on the M2000s is for second hand aircraft, which will always be cheaper than new. Also the Argentineans have a history with Mirage.

So bearing those two points in mind (and if the purchase of the M2000s is true), the Air Force will be getting a reliable aircraft from a reliable supplier that will cost less to run than SU30s, which will be very important in an Air Force where funding is tight.

Some thoughts.

Having said that I am sure that the news tomorrow carry the story of the SU30 going to Argintina:)
 

contedicavour

New Member
While not being an expert in this area, I'll make a few comments.

I guess on the face of it having an aircraft like the SU30 in service would provide some real benefits to the Argentinean Air Force, range, performance, etc.

However everything I read says that the Argentinean Air Force is a professional air arm and will have to know what it wants, and how it wants to achieve it with the resources available.

Bearing this in mind, lets not forget that the while the SU30 has a good reputation while in the air there are also lots of evidence to suggest that the effort to keep it operation is much more than is required with the equivalent western aircraft.

Also the report on the M2000s is for second hand aircraft, which will always be cheaper than new. Also the Argentineans have a history with Mirage.

So bearing those two points in mind (and if the purchase of the M2000s is true), the Air Force will be getting a reliable aircraft from a reliable supplier that will cost less to run than SU30s, which will be very important in an Air Force where funding is tight.

Some thoughts.

Having said that I am sure that the news tomorrow carry the story of the SU30 going to Argintina:)
Politically Argentina is getting every year closer to Chavez' Venezuela, which is helping Argentina even financially (by buying its bonds for example or by shipping underpriced oil). Could this mean that Venezuela could partly finance a batch of SU30s for Argentina after receiving its own ?

cheers
 
Politically Argentina is getting every year closer to Chavez' Venezuela, which is helping Argentina even financially (by buying its bonds for example or by shipping underpriced oil). Could this mean that Venezuela could partly finance a batch of SU30s for Argentina after receiving its own ?

cheers
I don't think Chavez own military will take it well that he is dishing out cash for other countries military. There is a lot of poor people in the rural parts of Venezuela where the excess petro dollars can be better spend.
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
Politically Argentina is getting every year closer to Chavez' Venezuela, which is helping Argentina even financially (by buying its bonds for example or by shipping underpriced oil). Could this mean that Venezuela could partly finance a batch of SU30s for Argentina after receiving its own ?

cheers

I guess, it is possible for Argentina to purchase an aircraft in conjunction with another country to leverage and cut the costs of operating them. Chile is the country in the region that has upgraded its military substantially, buying second hand and new to give itself a real boost in capability.

As mentioned above The SU-30 would involve a massive effort to get into service as opposed to buying aircraft from a known supplier with the infrastructure set up already from this supplier.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I guess, it is possible for Argentina to purchase an aircraft in conjunction with another country to leverage and cut the costs of operating them. Chile is the country in the region that has upgraded its military substantially, buying second hand and new to give itself a real boost in capability....
Argentina & Chile train to defend - or attack across - their mutual border. Their current generals all remember being mobilised ready to fight each other, when they were junior officers.
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
Argentina & Chile train to defend - or attack across - their mutual border. Their current generals all remember being mobilised ready to fight each other, when they were junior officers.
Sorry, my meaning was probably lost re-reading.

I think that Chile is a good model with the way it has re-equipped its forces with a mix of the Second hand and new.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I guess, it is possible for Argentina to purchase an aircraft in conjunction with another country to leverage and cut the costs of operating them. Chile is the country in the region that has upgraded its military substantially, buying second hand and new to give itself a real boost in capability.

As mentioned above The SU-30 would involve a massive effort to get into service as opposed to buying aircraft from a known supplier with the infrastructure set up already from this supplier.
With all the money Chavez has he could create a regional infrastructure centre for maintenance of Sukhois in Venezuela. Peru and Mexico (if its navy confirms the SU30 purchase) could profit from that centre. Argentina would just have to join.
Argentina would probably feel a lot of unease if it were to rely on Chilean or US help for maintenance and upgrades of its aircrafts. Given their government's recent anti-American positions I doubt the US will help out again as they did with the A4s.

cheers
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
With all the money Chavez has he could create a regional infrastructure centre for maintenance of Sukhois in Venezuela. Peru and Mexico (if its navy confirms the SU30 purchase) could profit from that centre. Argentina would just have to join.
Argentina would probably feel a lot of unease if it were to rely on Chilean or US help for maintenance and upgrades of its aircrafts. Given their government's recent anti-American positions I doubt the US will help out again as they did with the A4s.

cheers
the SU27 deals dead

http://www.semar.gob.mx/boletin/2007/bol_015_07.htm

LA SECRETARÍA DE MARINA-ARMADA DE MÉXICO NO CONTEMPLA LA ADQUISICIÓN DE AVIONES RUSOS SUKHOI-27

Mexican navy does not contemplate the purchase of russian built su-27 aircraft anymore.

Contempla otras alternativas igualmente efectivas, que generen los mismos resultados, pero a más bajo costo.
México, D. F.- La Secretaría de Marina-Armada de México no contempla en su proyecto actual de seguridad para las costas y mares nacionales la adquisición de aviones Sukhoi-27 de fabricación rusa para la seguridad de las instalaciones petroleras en el mar, como se ha difundido recientemente en medios de comunicación, e informa, que si bien tenía como proyecto la adquisición de los citados aviones, en la actualidad han sido declinadas todas las ofertas de compra.

Esta institución, consciente de la importancia de la seguridad de las instalaciones vitales de nuestro país y en particular las petroleras, realiza lo necesario para garantizarla con los medios actualmente disponibles, y estudia otras opciones con las que se puedan lograr los mismos resultados y a más bajo costo, por lo que reitera que definitivamente no será con aviones interceptores Sukhoi-27.

Cabe señalar que actualmente la Armada de México realiza la vigilancia del espacio aéreo marítimo mexicano con unidades aeronavales de ala fija y móvil (aviones y helicópteros) de diversos tipos, que cumplen con sus misiones de forma puntual, garantizando la seguridad de las áreas de jurisdicción encomendadas; ante la necesidad de incrementar su cobertura se contempla la posibilidad de adquirir nuevas unidades aeronavales de patrulla marítima, por lo que es necesario el incremento de recursos, bajo proyectos de inversión que se presentarán en su oportunidad al Ejecutivo Federal, con lo que se buscará ser más eficientes en los resultados de vigilancia y seguridad en los mares y costas nacionales
Reply With Quote
 

atkins3570

New Member
What about the Mirage 2000 for Argentina? I read an article that may be they will buy second hand Mirages 2000-c refurbished to -5 standard in Argentina. Economically, I think it makes better sense over the SU-30. However, if intentions are other....like maintaining air superiority over the Falklands, then the SU-30 will make more sense (if they can afford it).
Any thoughts?
 

contedicavour

New Member
the SU27 deals dead

http://www.semar.gob.mx/boletin/2007/bol_015_07.htm

LA SECRETARÍA DE MARINA-ARMADA DE MÉXICO NO CONTEMPLA LA ADQUISICIÓN DE AVIONES RUSOS SUKHOI-27

Mexican navy does not contemplate the purchase of russian built su-27 aircraft anymore.

Contempla otras alternativas igualmente efectivas, que generen los mismos resultados, pero a más bajo costo.
México, D. F.- La Secretaría de Marina-Armada de México no contempla en su proyecto actual de seguridad para las costas y mares nacionales la adquisición de aviones Sukhoi-27 de fabricación rusa para la seguridad de las instalaciones petroleras en el mar, como se ha difundido recientemente en medios de comunicación, e informa, que si bien tenía como proyecto la adquisición de los citados aviones, en la actualidad han sido declinadas todas las ofertas de compra.

Esta institución, consciente de la importancia de la seguridad de las instalaciones vitales de nuestro país y en particular las petroleras, realiza lo necesario para garantizarla con los medios actualmente disponibles, y estudia otras opciones con las que se puedan lograr los mismos resultados y a más bajo costo, por lo que reitera que definitivamente no será con aviones interceptores Sukhoi-27.

Cabe señalar que actualmente la Armada de México realiza la vigilancia del espacio aéreo marítimo mexicano con unidades aeronavales de ala fija y móvil (aviones y helicópteros) de diversos tipos, que cumplen con sus misiones de forma puntual, garantizando la seguridad de las áreas de jurisdicción encomendadas; ante la necesidad de incrementar su cobertura se contempla la posibilidad de adquirir nuevas unidades aeronavales de patrulla marítima, por lo que es necesario el incremento de recursos, bajo proyectos de inversión que se presentarán en su oportunidad al Ejecutivo Federal, con lo que se buscará ser más eficientes en los resultados de vigilancia y seguridad en los mares y costas nacionales
Reply With Quote
Ok thanks that's clear enough. Besides I agree that a long range maritime patroller such as a P3C would be much more useful to cover the oil installations than a SU27...
If Venezuela remains the only country with SU30 than I guess chances for Argentina buying them diminuish (also because politically too sensitive)

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
What about the Mirage 2000 for Argentina? I read an article that may be they will buy second hand Mirages 2000-c refurbished to -5 standard in Argentina. Economically, I think it makes better sense over the SU-30. However, if intentions are other....like maintaining air superiority over the Falklands, then the SU-30 will make more sense (if they can afford it).
Any thoughts?
I am very doubtful about the feasibility of the upgrade to -5 standard in Argentina itself. Dassault will want to keep it for itself and the French government will only provide second hand jets for cut down prices if its industry gets contracts in exchange (at least an upgrade if not an outright buy)

cheers
 

Ducat

New Member
What about the Mirage 2000 for Argentina? I read an article that may be they will buy second hand Mirages 2000-c refurbished to -5 standard in Argentina. Economically, I think it makes better sense over the SU-30. However, if intentions are other....like maintaining air superiority over the Falklands, then the SU-30 will make more sense (if they can afford it).
Any thoughts?
Well now, hi to all here... I've heard somwhere in the Punta Alta Naval Base that Argentina maybe whants to buy some JF-17 (around 40) and a couple of J-10 wings (about 10 planes). This makes some sense despite the fact that China owns the biggest iron mines complex in South America, located in Sierra Grande (41°36′41″ S 65°21′27″ W)... The J-10 as a delta fighter has some resemblance to flight conditions to the Mirage, and like an IAI Lavi development (aka F-16), it will more likely to outrun the 'new' Chilean planes...

Thinking in the Malvinas/Falkland issue, both J-10 and JF-17 have BVR capabilities, the J-10 is in-flight refuelling ready, but will be more reliable to buy JF-17 and JH-7 (this last can carry up to 4 YJ-82K antiship missiles, wich is quite similar ;) to the French Exocet used by the Argentinian Navy in their AMD Super Etendard). Even with JF-17 and JH-7 having almost the same range than the Mirage (it also has not in-flight refuelling), they could be modiffied to give it that capacity...


The officials I heard say "vamos a tener aviones 'made in China'..." ("We'll have "made in China" planes") like a personal joke ;)
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Slightly off topic!

Both the current and shadow Government’s in the UK are maintaining the decision on the future of the Islands will be determined by the Islanders themselves, not the UN, not Argentina, not Britain.

William Hague, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, warned Argentina that any future British government would have the patience to defend the Falkland Islands and he said Britain should not be "goaded" by increased rhetoric from Buenos Aires.

The Argentineans themselves have admitted the war was a disaster and that they would NOT seek a military solution in the future. This could change of course should another military junta take power.

The Islanders continued prosperity (fishing licenses, possible oil) will eventually result in them being able to fund the current UK garrison, and according to recent reports, it’s there intention to do just that to ensure a continued military presence.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I'd add that the Argentine defence budget has been pitifully low for over a decade now. Some top brass might try to leverage the current government's more nationalistic streak to obtain budget increases. Since no neighbour today is hostile, there's nothing better than bringing back the good old Falklands/Malvinas argument to top up the budgets.
Otherwise I don't see how they could justify an acquisition such as updated Mirage 2000s potentially even with Mica AAMs (comparable to Amraams)

cheers
 

aprasadi

New Member
Though the mirage manufacturing lines have been closed there are number of countries(India, argentina,qatar,pakistan) lined up to buy these old 2nd hand aircrafts. But whts the use of these aircrafts as within 5 yrs they will face eurofighter,rafael, f-22, su-30 mki.
these mirage planes will be sitting ducks for all these new generation planes. Instead argentina should go for new generation planes though in few numbers.

The best will be su-30 as it will come in same price of 2nd hand mirage
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Though the mirage manufacturing lines have been closed there are number of countries(India, argentina,qatar,pakistan) lined up to buy these old 2nd hand aircrafts. But whts the use of these aircrafts as within 5 yrs they will face eurofighter,rafael, f-22, su-30 mki.
these mirage planes will be sitting ducks for all these new generation planes. Instead argentina should go for new generation planes though in few numbers.

The best will be su-30 as it will come in same price of 2nd hand mirage
The Mirage 2000s can potentially be quite useful. After all, of the countries that are looking to purchase them, how many would be willing to go up against a European or North American power? Not many. Instead, the aircraft that the Mirage 2000s would be fighting most likely would be aircraft or designs that pre-date the Mirage. For example, with the Argentinian purchase, the most likely opponents (assuming the Falkland Islands row isn't started again...) would be the neighboring countries of Chile, Paraguay, Uruguay, Bolivia and Brazil. None of these countries are fielding any of the advanced fighters that are just entering service either. Keep in mind the local/regional context of a military purchase, because that is what drives it.

-Cheers
 

Big-E

Banned Member
If the Argies can take out RAF Mt. Pleasant they would be sitting pretty from an air superiority standpoint if they upgrade their fighter fleet. The only support the UK could bring would have to be naval based. If they sit around and wait for the CVF and her JSFs they won't ever stand a chance of a military solution. Argentina only needs to get something that can carry BVR and dart out of an AMRAAM ranged engagement... speed would be of the essence. It wouldn't take much to blast past RAF Mt. Pleasant's 4 Tornadoes in a suprise raid. It wouldn't take much to actually overpower the garrison either. If they do make a military attempt it would have to be soon. The RN has never been as weak as it is today.
 
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