Venezuela seeking Tor M1 system
- Thread starter drg
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DragonKing786
New Member
Please Provide a link, so we can analyze and talk, etc.
Combined with the decision to acquire modern SSKs (see Venezuela is buying 9 SSKs ! in Naval Forces) and the purchase of 24 Su30s and 100,000 AK47s from Russia it seems to me that this deal will put even more strain on relations with the USA.
http://mosnews.com/money/2007/01/29/venezuelaams.shtml
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http://mosnews.com/money/2007/01/29/venezuelaams.shtml
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An AD umbrella by Tor-1's at least provides the necessary AD for countries buying medium SAMs as first time users other then fighters as AD. Bombers or Fighters would have to fly in high altitude to do mission outside Tor-1's working range. Makes things a whole lot harder for them. Which is good for the homeside.
contedicavour
New Member
IIRC Tor only has a 15km range, so not enough to stop ASMs or cruise missiles launched by USN jets a hundred or more km away 
Still it's a good start to build their air defence.
The day they get S300 we'll have to start worrying.
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Still it's a good start to build their air defence.
The day they get S300 we'll have to start worrying.
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IIRC Tor only has a 15km range, so not enough to stop ASMs or cruise missiles launched by USN jets a hundred or more km away
Still it's a good start to build their air defence.
The day they get S300 we'll have to start worrying.
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I fail to see the logic behind what you are saying.
Why should a 15 km range not be enough to stop cruise missiles? As long as the cruise missile enters the 15 km sphere around the Tor system, it can be shot down, no matter how many hundreds of km the ship that launched it is away.
Yes. I have the same doubt here. Few times I read this claim in Tor M1 threads. No offense, just want to clear my long doubt.
I fail to see the logic behind what you are saying.
Why should a 15 km range not be enough to stop cruise missiles? As long as the cruise missile enters the 15 km sphere around the Tor system, it can be shot down, no matter how many hundreds of km the ship that launched it is away.
And can anyone give a brief comment on this system?
contedicavour
New Member
Ok I probably wasn't clear in my post above.
What I meant is that the Tor/Gadfly SA-11 is a short range system (1-12km) that can't shoot down enemy jets launching standoff missiles.
A S300 would provide the concrete possibility of shooting down enemy jets before they launch standoff weapons.
Besides, the Tor's performance against modern cruise missiles is debatable. The builder claims it can attack targets moving up to 700m/s and can react within 10 seconds of detection on radar. However the system has been around for some 20 years (same generation as Crotale or Aspide) and by now the US have probably figured out a way of swamping it with several attacks from different directions. Heck even a few Harm anti-radiation missiles might take its radar out and make the system useless.
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What I meant is that the Tor/Gadfly SA-11 is a short range system (1-12km) that can't shoot down enemy jets launching standoff missiles.
A S300 would provide the concrete possibility of shooting down enemy jets before they launch standoff weapons.
Besides, the Tor's performance against modern cruise missiles is debatable. The builder claims it can attack targets moving up to 700m/s and can react within 10 seconds of detection on radar. However the system has been around for some 20 years (same generation as Crotale or Aspide) and by now the US have probably figured out a way of swamping it with several attacks from different directions. Heck even a few Harm anti-radiation missiles might take its radar out and make the system useless.
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Thanks for the clarification contedicavour. I was wondering the same thing as TrangleC and qwerty223. If the performance of the Tor against cruise missiles is questionable I can see the need to take out the carrier aircraft before release (preferred option anyway). What sort of additional costs would be involved to move to a system like the S300?
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thanks you.
Well, IMO, costs is not that critical for Venezuela. Political pressure is the main reason behind this decision.
contedicavour
New Member
Unfortunately it's the easiest way for Putin to make his point vs the US... A sort of lighter remake of the proxy conflicts in Africa and Asia in the '80s. I'm surprised that Cuba isn't rearming yet. Today's Russia wants to become again a respected superpower (no actually a feared superpower) and the easiest way is to sell at expensive price levels weapons systems to rogue countries who can't be supplied by Western defence firms. They get the money and they annoy the US...
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It is not that "dearly" if you are not going to engage them
The Tor is a very dangerous weapon. However as mentioned already, it can be minimized. "I can touch you, but you can't touch me." A lot of our strikes of targets can be, and are, done from 30-40 thousand feet. Once large SAMs and enemy airpower are down, this kind of stuff becomes easy. A stealth aircraft isn't really needed. Smaller battlefield SAMs, MANPADS, AAA, Trashfire, can't reach. Where if the target is fixed, JDAM usually hits inside of 4 meters. The newer gen laser pods for our laser guided bombs... SNIPER, LANTERN ( old but upgraded with more laser reach), LITENING, can use the laser from that high up. With the first combat use of an Air Force Reserve B-52 fitted with a LANTIRN II pod, It dropped a GBU-12 (500lb class ) laser guided bomb from 35,000ft.... about a 55 second fly time. I use the big fat B-52 as an example because the Tor unfortunately cant reach that far for slant range. When you add slant range for something like a JDAM attack or the devastating CBU-105 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser, with the BLU-108b sensor fused weapon (SFW) TOR is no threat.
I would give it credit for fast reaction and even being able to engage a munition on the way down, but how long can it keep that up? It emits so something like the latest Block of HARM with geo-locating would be helpful too. Going expensive, the JSOW-A is made for SEAD/DEAD and is low observable ( most likely design tuned against high freq weapons radar ). So against JSOW it will have less reaction time if it doesn't get a visual.
In my opinion, where TOR is dangerous is if it shows up somewhere on the battlefield and a flock of A-10s or Apaches or whatever think they are safe and find they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. For that, I think TOR is a killer. But it isn't going to be especially helpful in stopping the mail from getting through on a strategic strike. Legacys moving on to do battlefield interdiction dropping the weapons I mentioned will just orbit around at 35,000+ ft. and plink heavy equipment like AFVs, Artillery, anything with wheels or tracks, that looks like it contributes to the war or whatever. Unfortunately TOR for trying to stop that mission, is out matched.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K330_Tor
I would give it credit for fast reaction and even being able to engage a munition on the way down, but how long can it keep that up? It emits so something like the latest Block of HARM with geo-locating would be helpful too. Going expensive, the JSOW-A is made for SEAD/DEAD and is low observable ( most likely design tuned against high freq weapons radar ). So against JSOW it will have less reaction time if it doesn't get a visual.
In my opinion, where TOR is dangerous is if it shows up somewhere on the battlefield and a flock of A-10s or Apaches or whatever think they are safe and find they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. For that, I think TOR is a killer. But it isn't going to be especially helpful in stopping the mail from getting through on a strategic strike. Legacys moving on to do battlefield interdiction dropping the weapons I mentioned will just orbit around at 35,000+ ft. and plink heavy equipment like AFVs, Artillery, anything with wheels or tracks, that looks like it contributes to the war or whatever. Unfortunately TOR for trying to stop that mission, is out matched.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K330_Tor
contedicavour
New Member
Agree. Actually Tor is useful for Venezuela against its neighbors (for instance Colombia's air force) but no match against USAF/USN with their standoff capabilities. Venezuela can't hide their Tor since the moment they light up their radars a Harm missile will destroy them. Recent wars in the Middle East prove that modern shoulder launched SAMs provoke a lot more damage than Cold War era SAMs such as SA-11 Gadfly
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