New ship(s) for Irish Naval Service???

[Sea Toby]

I believe the forward part of the superstructure of the Rosin is to provide a lesser radar signature forward with a heading toward the opposition. But I agree, a lot of space is wasted.

There are a lot of 80 meter OPV designs to choose from. I suspect we'll known more about these new ships when we hear who will build them.

 

[contedicavour]

I believe the forward part of the superstructure of the Rosin is to provide a lesser radar signature forward with a heading toward the opposition. But I agree, a lot of space is wasted.

There are a lot of 80 meter OPV designs to choose from. I suspect we'll known more about these new ships when we hear who will build them.

I'd just hope (if I were Irish) that as the Eithne the new ships will at least carry helos... A109, AB139 or even NH90 which does fit on our 90-meter Comandanti.
A good helo with ASMs such as Marte Mk2 or Sea Skua or AS15TT could provide anti-shipping capability during overseas missions.

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

Hopefully the new OPVs will have a helicopter deck, I don't think they will get a hangar as their air corps doesn't have many naval helicopters. I agree, with the extended EEZ, with a deck they can at least send a helicopter out, land and refuel, so that they can return to base when needed.

The OPVs that do have a deck currently are the ones being replaced.

 

[Ths]

Regarding Absalon-class

From what I've seen of the hull of the Absalon and the "patrol" frigates:
It is build like a ferry/passenger steamer: Lots of with amidship and fluted prow and stern - this should mean that pitching is limited and rolling is controlled (probably in the same way the Thetis class does it), this leaves yaw - and I predict they won't love seas coming aft at 45 degress. Shouldn't be to serious for helicopter operation - and everybody is excused for being seasick in 10 meters of wawe-action.
The point of these ships is -apart from being build to civilian specifications - that they can vary their draught without to much fuss.

Regstrup: Your dad hasn't tried "Beskytteren" in 12 meters following sea?

But the Irish ships appear to follow the general trend: Patrollers grow bigger and they venture futher out.

 

[regstrup]

Regstrup: Your dad hasn't tried "Beskytteren" in 12 meters following sea?

He has sailed many years with the old Hvidbjørnen-class in Greenland and the Faroe Island, so he has very likely sailed in 12 meters following sea

 

[Ths]

The problem regstrup is that Beskytteren HATES following sea. Kununguak is the same hull, and according to a lady who travelled with the this pax-ship tried the following sea. It damned nearly tore the ship apart.

But I've always held the crews on the "inspection" ship in the north atlantic in the highest regard in the discipline of seamanship.

 

[Grand Danois]

Beskytteren decommissioned in 2000.

 

[Ths]

Grand Danois: She is sailing as the flagship of the Estonian Navy under the name Admiral Pribka. She should do well there.
The Thetis class builds on the experience of Beskytteren, which remained a one ship class (in naval service).

 

[regstrup]

The problem regstrup is that Beskytteren HATES following sea. Kununguak is the same hull, and according to a lady who travelled with the this pax-ship tried the following sea. It damned nearly tore the ship apart.

An senior officer once told my father (when he was still a young man):

There is nothing called bad weather, just bad seamanship

 

[Ths]

Regstrup:
1. Was that the character that bought waterskies to use the slopes that so conviniently appear in the North Atlanctic??
2. Try telling that to the chief trying to keep the steering engine from parting from its mounts!
3. Good seamanship is occationally staying in port! Which is not always an option. I've seen weather in Greenland so bad that even skippers from the Fairisles stayed in port.

 

[cscian]

do you now if the new irish ships can carry helicopters

 

[Sea Toby]

I suspect there will be at least a helicopter deck for the MRV, but I doubt whether it will have a hangar if they choose the MEKO. The OPVs may or may not have a helicopter deck. Their air force don't have a large number of helicopters, but they do have a couple of Daulphins, their navy service don't have any.

 

[contedicavour]

I remember reading on Jane's that the Irish naval service did operate a Dauphin from Eithne, but that recently the navy stopped helo operations for budget reasons. If it's true, it's quite a shame. The helo is a real force multiplier.

cheers

 

[Tasman]

I remember reading on Jane's that the Irish naval service did operate a Dauphin from Eithne, but that recently the navy stopped helo operations for budget reasons. If it's true, it's quite a shame. The helo is a real force multiplier.

cheers

Unfortunately I can't find the source but I'm certain I read somewhere recently that the fixed wing Casa CN235s have taken over the maritime role and that the Dauphin is no longer deployed at sea. This would support your comments about the Dauphin no longer operating from Eithne. Can any of our Irish members confirm this?

Even if this is presently the case it is hard to believe that the design of the new Irish MRV would not at least include a helo capability.

Cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

There are several pictures of the MEKO 200 MRV at this website:
http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?t=6905

As you can easily see a enlarged superstructure to house 150 soldiers, and a aft helicopter deck to park 200 lane meters of military vehicles, with a crane to offload the vehicles, no ramp or landing craft. This is the ship the naval service recommends.

However, the army appears to be wishing for a larger ship with more lane meters. The government has suggested a ship running up to 100 meters in length with possibly more lane meters of vehicle space. There are several pictures of other vessels at this link:
http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?t=6905

Their army and defence ministry did visit the NZ MRV at Rotterdam. HDW has offered a similar type of ship with about the same tonnage as the NZ MRV. Whether the army will state specifications and whether the defence ministry will buy what the army wants is undecided. Currently the ministry is setting the specifications of the multi-role vessel before asking for tenders.

I haven't a clue on which ship will win or how much each will cost. But it does appear the NZ MRV and the HDW 8000 MRV can be bought within the 100 million Euro budget. Plus, the Damen Schelde 8000 ton Enforcer design is still another option which came in second to Merwede's design for New Zealand.

Considering both nations are of equal size, New Zealand did very well choosing the NZ MRV designed by Merwede, a converted commerical ro-pax ferry.

 

[trpsarge]

The Irish Aircorps did operate SA 365fs from the L.E eithne but were forced to cease doing so due to operational reasons and unavailability of trained personel due to a drain of qualified personel both from the naval side and the AC side.The ship no longer has the facilities to operate a helo and the dauphins have been retired since late last year.

Bear in mind only two of the type were equiped for Naval ops....and one of the others waas lost in a crash..the high unserviceability record of the type was a contributory factor to the cessation of naval OPs.

The actual operations barely moved outside the training phase due to commitments above Naval training to include SAR work until this was privatised,and by this stage the serviceabilty of the aircraft was so low it was pointless to continue maritime ops.

 

[trpsarge]

I'd just hope (if I were Irish) that as the Eithne the new ships will at least carry helos... A109, AB139 or even NH90 which does fit on our 90-meter Comandanti.
A good helo with ASMs such as Marte Mk2 or Sea Skua or AS15TT could provide anti-shipping capability during overseas missions.

cheers

totally unsuitable for the type of operations and sea states the Irish naval service engage in...hardly need an anti submarime helo for fishery protection and ACTP roles.

 

[Tasman]

totally unsuitable for the type of operations and sea states the Irish naval service engage in...hardly need an anti submarime helo for fishery protection and ACTP roles.

I have to disagree with you about the need for a helo. A helo greatly extends the eyes of a vessel involved in patrol work and also enables it to respond quickly to situations that may arise unexpectedly. This could range from a rescue mission to inserting a boarding party. Incidentally, the helos were mentioned by contedicavour in relation to anti surface, not anti submarine operations. Having the ability to fire an anti ship missile is surely a handy capability even if it turns out that is never used. IMO, regardless of whether or not the anti ship missile capability is fitted, the embarkation of a helo would be a force multiplier.

Cheers

 

[Tasman]

The Irish Aircorps did operate SA 365fs from the L.E eithne but were forced to cease doing so due to operational reasons and unavailability of trained personel due to a drain of qualified personel both from the naval side and the AC side.The ship no longer has the facilities to operate a helo and the dauphins have been retired since late last year.

Bear in mind only two of the type were equiped for Naval ops....and one of the others waas lost in a crash..the high unserviceability record of the type was a contributory factor to the cessation of naval OPs.

The actual operations barely moved outside the training phase due to commitments above Naval training to include SAR work until this was privatised,and by this stage the serviceabilty of the aircraft was so low it was pointless to continue maritime ops.

That is a very depressing summary of Irish maritime aviation operations. The value of an embarked helo is recognised by most navies and coastguards as a valuable asset for patrol vessels. IMO, it would be great to see this capability restored but from what you have said there would need to be a strong commitment in terms of funding and training before it would be viable.

Cheers

 

[trpsarge]

I didn't say there was no requirement as I actually served aboard the LE Eithne for two years.
My point was that the type of helo mentioned was not suitable.

The ship itself is rather small and the pitch and role rate was very restrictive to helo ops off the west coast of Ireland.

Unless any helo was to be based permantly with any future ship the concept won't work as the Army have firts call on any helos in operation.

The actualy concept of operating a helo from a naval vessel was a pipe dream with the size of ship and type of helo with two seperate services both short on equipment and the conditions operate here.

To effectively operate a helo specifically for FP and even surveillnace would require a ship at least twice of Eithne witha dedicated naval machine...three to one ratio applies with helis...To have one operational at all time you need three...one in maintaince , one potentially out of service due to tech problems and one at sea.

Now given the very limited budgets available and thattheAC don't have a current maritime compatible machine...options are to qualify naval personel..but where are they going to get the funding for Naval Helos,,,given the budget is so stretch just aquiring new ships.

You got to live the experience to believe it.