New Dutch Helicoptor Carrier?

[PhillTaj]

I've been hearing alot recently that the Dutch have decided to build an LHD with replenishment capabilities- similiar to the Canadian Joint Support Ship but probably more along the lines of HMS Ocean or the Schelde Groups Enforcer 18000. Anyone heard anything about this program?

I'd be very interested in seeing what the ship may look like- the Rotterdam LPDs are fine vessels, lets hope they can continue the tradition.

 

[Sea Toby]

The Royal Schelde shipyard has at its website four different versions, from 16,000 tons to 22,000 tons. Yes, the Dutch government is interested in acquiring one, I believe its the largest one for their fleet.

See this link for all 12 versions of the Enforcer type LPDs/LHDs.

http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/enforcer/

You'll notice that New Zealand found a Tenix-Merwede designed ferry cheaper than the ADI-Schelde 8,000 ton Enforcer.

You'll also notice that the Dutch have built two different versions of the Enforcer type for their fleet, and are contemplating adding another version.

Royal Schelde is also offering a number of frigates to patrol ships of the Sigma type. The Dutch may sell two more of their Karel Doorman frigates to build two or more OPVs.

See this link for the Sigma type warships

http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/Sigma.htm

However, if the Dutch are interested in a multi-role helicopter carrier/replenishment ship the rigs would be on one side of the ship similar to what Portugal is interested in. Germany's HDW has offered a 8,000 ton LPD/AOE and a 10,000 ton LHD/AOE. They appear as either a LPD or in this case a mid-section LHD with the replenishment rigs to starboard. There were photos in the magazine Warship back in the May issue of 2005.

Of course, the Canadians have been more interested in a true 30,000 ton AOE, but with a vehicle deck for army sealift.

Denmark built a multi-role OPV/sealift ship which appears as an OPV, with a vehicle deck for army sealift.

Iceland is interested in something similar to Denmark's multi-role ship, a German Blohm & Voss design of 3,000 tons, half the size of the Danish ship.

Frankly, I find all of these multi-role ship designs interesting.

 

[Big-E]

Frankly, I find all of these multi-role ship designs interesting.

Especially when they get F-35Bs.

 

[PhillTaj]

Do you think they'll go for the 22,000 ton LHD or a smaller 8000-10,000 ton multi role vessel? The program is budgeted at aboit 191 million, roughly the same cost as HMS Ocean.

 

[contedicavour]

The accurate news on the Dutch Navy

I've read on the most recent issue of "Naval Forces" by Monch Publishing Group that the Dutch Navy has decided to sell 2 more Karel Doorman frigates in exchange for a 20,000 tonner LHD with some AOR capability and 4 large OPVs/corvettes 90-metre long.

They'll end up with 4 LCF, 2 M-class frigates, 4 OPVs, 2 big LPD and 1 very big LHD, besides the 4 Walrus SSK and a dozen minesweepers.
Frankly at this speed the Dutch Navy will become more a Marine-support unit than a blue-water Navy Great for the Marines, but bad news for all the other capabilities...

I still remember when they had 20 main surface units between Tromp, Van Heemsmerk (sorry for the spelling), Doorman, Kortenaer ...

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

The Netherlands, much like the British, have reduced their number of ASW frigates and are increasing their number of sealift assets. The Cold War is over, the peace dividend has been cashed, and now nations are rebuilding their forces to match today's problems, for many its sealift.


Since no European or American navy has over 100 submarines anymore, ASW has taken a back seat to sealift. Sealift and littorial warfare assets are the wave of the future, with frigates being useful abroad on peacekeeping missions and with OPVs being useful at home for EEZ patrol, fishery protection, SAR missions, and for showing the flag in foreign ports. OPVs also cost much less than a frigate, several times less.

Even a more powerful corvette of the same size of a OPV have the combat data systems and weapons systems of a frigate are half the price of a sea going more heavily armed frigate. Welcome to the 21st Century

Here is a link to the Armada magazine article which shows two pictures of HDW AOR/Sealift multi-role vessels offered to Portugal. The 8,000 tonner appears much like a small LPD, the 10,000 tonner appears more like a midships flat top, with the repenishment rigs to starboard on both.

www.armada.ch/05-5/complete_05-5.pdf

 

[contedicavour]

The Netherlands, much like the British, have reduced their number of ASW frigates and are increasing their number of sealift assets. The Cold War is over, the peace dividend has been cashed, and now nations are rebuilding their forces to match today's problems, for many its sealift.


Since no European or American navy has over 100 submarines anymore, ASW has taken a back seat to sealift. Sealift and littorial warfare assets are the wave of the future, with frigates being useful abroad on peacekeeping missions and with OPVs being useful at home for EEZ patrol, fishery protection, SAR missions, and for showing the flag in foreign ports. OPVs also cost much less than a frigate, several times less.

Even a more powerful corvette of the same size of a OPV have the combat data systems and weapons systems of a frigate are half the price of a sea going more heavily armed frigate. Welcome to the 21st Century

Here is a link to the Armada magazine article which shows two pictures of HDW AOR/Sealift multi-role vessels offered to Portugal. The 8,000 tonner appears much like a small LPD, the 10,000 tonner appears more like a midships flat top, with the repenishment rigs to starboard on both.

www.armada.ch/05-5/complete_05-5.pdf

All that you say makes a lot of sense However I beg to differ... most of the current missions are still classic escort of merchants around the world, "show the flag" missions in dangerous areas, and AAW, ASW and ASUW protection for your already existing LPDs when you need to deploy marines in some distant location.
If your navy ends up having 4 LPDs and 6 FFGs, there are chances that you wan't be capable to escort it appropriately and that you won't have enough FFGs to protect your shipping around the world anymore (against threats ranging from Iran going crazy in the Gulf to pirates in the Malacca Straits).

To conclude, great to reduce your SSK and FFG numbers to accomodate some LPDs, but beware if your navy doesn't have enough FFGs to escort your LPDs...

 

[Sea Toby]

As long as the LPDs steam together, the Dutch have enough escorting vessels. However, I will agree if the LPDs are steaming to two different locations, it appears the Dutch may have cut their escorting forces too much. With six suitable escorting vessels, the Dutch will probably only have 4 available in a pinch.

But if they are heading in the direction of other sealift ships in a multi-nation convoy along with a mix of multi-nation escorts, the combined forces could do the job. And in this world with no navy having hundreds of submarines, more than likely fewer escorts are needed.

 

[Big-E]

And in this world with no navy having hundreds of submarines, more than likely fewer escorts are needed.

With all the diesel/electrics running around I don't think this is a good idea.

 

[Sea Toby]

While many nations have 2-4 diesel electric submarines, only the major powers have more. As far as the Dutch are concerned, their Caribbean island territories are of the most threat, and any potential enemy submarines in the Caribbean can be targeted and watched well in a conflict. Don't forget that the best ASW asset is to have your own submarines in your task force.

 

[Whiskyjack]

While many nations have 2-4 diesel electric submarines, only the major powers have more. As far as the Dutch are concerned, their Caribbean island territories are of the most threat, and any potential enemy submarines in the Caribbean can be targeted and watched well in a conflict. Don't forget that the best ASW asset is to have your own submarines in your task force.

Have to disagree, any purchase will last 30+ years. Who will have subs, how many and where the Dutch may be operating is not going to be known.

Buying a platform for one area of operations may doom it in an area you had not even thought about!

The UK assumed they would not be conducting world wide operations in the early 1980s and made platform decisions on that basis. They then sailed 8000nm to fight in the Falklands!

 

[Big-E]

While many nations have 2-4 diesel electric submarines, only the major powers have more. As far as the Dutch are concerned, their Caribbean island territories are of the most threat, and any potential enemy submarines in the Caribbean can be targeted and watched well in a conflict. Don't forget that the best ASW asset is to have your own submarines in your task force.

I seriously doubt the Dutch have the capabilty to keep a sub tracking every potential enemy sub. Even if they followed they would lose them in the thermals at some point or another. I would much rather have a few frigates with 2 ASW choppers apiece, towed ,and bow mounted sonars pinging away than to rely on a few subs trying to track a target at range with passive sonar.

 

[contedicavour]

Rather than having a too small frigate force, I'd rather eliminate the SSK force as the Danes did. That would be a sign of the changing times... although very painful.

 

[submerged]

eleminating the SSK force in the light of a reduced ASW capability would seem even less smart if u ask me.. throwing away 100 years of operational submarine experience isn't a very smart move, RNLN didtake over the UK perisher courser for a reason Besides that, the building of new frigates would be a future thing because the current budget is way too strapped for that at this point (or the planned OPV's would have to be turned into down-scaled frigates wich is also not a good thing)

 

[Tasman]

eleminating the SSK force in the light of a reduced ASW capability would seem even less smart if u ask me.. throwing away 100 years of operational submarine experience isn't a very smart move, RNLN didtake over the UK perisher courser for a reason Besides that, the building of new frigates would be a future thing because the current budget is way too strapped for that at this point (or the planned OPV's would have to be turned into down-scaled frigates wich is also not a good thing)

It would certainly take a long time to re-establish the submarine arm if it is needed in the future. Australia found this out when it had to wait more than thirty years between the winding up of their submarine force in 1931 and buying their Oberon class boats in the late 1960s. Even in WW2, when submarines would have been invaluable against Japan, Australia had to depend on allied submarines operating out of Fremantle and Brisbane. Amongst these were a number of Dutch subs!

I also think that SSKs have a role to play in securing Dutch interests in the Caribbean.

Cheers

 

[contedicavour]

It would certainly take a long time to re-establish the submarine arm if it is needed in the future. Australia found this out when it had to wait more than thirty years between the winding up of their submarine force in 1931 and buying their Oberon class boats in the late 1960s. Even in WW2, when submarines would have been invaluable against Japan, Australia had to depend on allied submarines operating out of Fremantle and Brisbane. Amongst these were a number of Dutch subs!

I also think that SSKs have a role to play in securing Dutch interests in the Caribbean.

Cheers

With a SSK force down to 4, there is only 1 or 2 ready at any given time, so I'd forget the Caribbean...
Besides, choices are sadly necessary once you're down to 6 FFG and 4 SSK ... nobody would lightheartedly recommand to abandon the SSK experience, but here we're reaching the point where it should be considered.

cheers

 

[Tasman]

With a SSK force down to 4, there is only 1 or 2 ready at any given time, so I'd forget the Caribbean...
Besides, choices are sadly necessary once you're down to 6 FFG and 4 SSK ... nobody would lightheartedly recommand to abandon the SSK experience, but here we're reaching the point where it should be considered.

cheers

I hadn't realised quite how far the downsizing of the Dutch navy had gone. If it can be maintained at the present level of 6 FFGs and 4 SSKs it will still be a balanced force. If it has to be reduced further, however, I agree that a tough call will have to be made. Less than 4 SSKs (certainly 3 at minimum)would be inefficient to properly maintain and operate so I would agree that the force ought to be abandoned if it cannot be maintained at that level.

Hopefully the Caribbean would not be completely forgotten!

Cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

With Venezuela adding new corvettes and submarines to their fleet, the Dutch better have a sufficient sized navy to protect their interests in the Caribbean.

 

[contedicavour]

With Venezuela adding new corvettes and submarines to their fleet, the Dutch better have a sufficient sized navy to protect their interests in the Caribbean.

It will be interesting to see how they'll react. IIRC Shell is also getting kicked out of several fields in the Western bit of Venezuela. Shell if Anglo-Dutch, so may be the Netherlands will try to do something about it.
Though with both the RN and the KM being downsized, it will be hard to have a significant presence around Aruba and the Commonwealth Caribbean islands.

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

With Venezuela adding new corvettes and submarines to their fleet, the Dutch better have a sufficient sized navy to protect their interests in the Caribbean.

if the Caribbean is under threat i can't see the dutch being in a position to protect it with a coastal fleet.

it could only achevie it with a joint fleet, would the RN join

would it be feasible to have a OPV based in Aruba like in the Falklands