New Indian Air Force Fighter competition

[vedang]

Think thr is already a thread bout the MIRC discussion, request mods to club both the threads together..

 

[aaaditya]

Just my opinion, IAF will really be sticking their neck out if they go Rafale being the only nation outside France to use it, let alone a hugh 100+ plane deal like this. I'd think EF is much more expensive than F-18 right ? And can they even meet the schedule of IAF ? I think IAF will have to wait behind the Europeans & Saudi. They even had problem meeting the schedule of the small order by S'pore.
But the point abt the political implications of a US order is valid though. However , India, US is much closer these days.
BTW, does anyone know the reason why F-18 & not F-15 are being offered ?

well ,indian have ,the habit of sticking their necks.

1) indians were amongst the first customers of the anglo-french sepecat jaguars.

2)one of the earliest customers of the sea harriers and the french mirage 2000's.

3)were the launch customers of the russian mig29's,mig29k's and the su30 mki's.

and all these aircrafts have seved their users quite well(though there were some problems initially with the russian mig29's,these have been mostly rectified).

 

[aaaditya]

The F18 is in the comp, but definitely out of sync with Indian requirements.

the requirements have changed,the initial plans were to acquire 120 mirage2000's as a stop gap measure till the lca's arrived,however the requirements were later changed and now it is for a dedicated multi-role aircraft capable of nuclear strike.

The IAF is looking for a low cost Mig 21 replacement. Can't really see how 126 F15s or F18s would qualify as low cost.

imho, the bug has Zero chance of getting the deal. Further, officials have commented publicly on this as well.

The F16s make sense as it can act as a lead-in to the JSF. That would be the pitch if I was in the marketing dept. I'd mix purchase options for the E/F versions coupled with leasing for the remainder. The E/F would be superior to the Pak versions. Leasing will cut costs and allow for JSF purchases in future.

If I'm in the IAF, I'd buy more suks.

the requirements have changed,the earlier requirement was for 120 french mirage 2000's as a stop gap measure to replace the mig21's till the lca's arrived,but then the requiremets were changed to a strategic multirole aircraft with special emphasis on nuclear strike capabilities.

 

[Dr Phobus]

well the mig 35 is a new plane, not in production, and of course thry bought the 29k for there carrier. The name implies something in the more medium weight, if its an MRCA with a strategic ability. So, i would rule out gripen, F-16/52. Of course Rafale does have, or will have, a nuclear strike role in mind for the french... interesting aspect there.

 

[Waylander]

Is the Typhoon going to have a nuclear capability in the RAF?

 

[Dr Phobus]

Is the Typhoon going to have a nuclear capability in the RAF?

no, the RAF no longer operates any free fall or stand off nukes. WE177 -green parrot- was retired from RAF inventory.

Only the French with there ASMP (2) has a tactile nuke capability within the EU now, and these are/or will be operated from Rafale M/Mirage 2000D 9 and its rafale replacement

 

[Waylander]

Thanks for this fast answer.

 

[Daxar]

India will not subsidize Pakistan's F-16s

Hi All,

I think that India may not go with F-16 because Pakistan has them and are going to get more of them. The F-16 production lines are closing for the U.S. and European customers. Lockheed Martin is trying very hard to keep the production line going by getting new customers like India and continue with supply to Pakistan. In my opinion if India goes for the F-16s then it would in effect be subsidizing the Pakistani F-16s inadvertently so they will not do that. I doubt that LM would keep the production lines going for much longer for only customer like Pakistan because it's not cost effective for them or to the U.S. gov't; especially when the F-16 sales to Pakistan would be heavily subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer. If India buys American at all, it might be the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. But as some of you've said, it could go with Mig-35 or even EF or Rafale. Gripen is definately out because it does not meet most of the requirements such as range or twin engines for safety and heavy loads etc.

Thanks

 

[Schumacher]

Are EADS & Dassault in a position to offer local assembly of EF & Rafale ? If not, they'll be at a big disadvantage to F-18 & Mig/Su. Still think F-18 is very much the front runner. US will be very upset if they don't get this deal considering the effort they've put in to court India lately.

 

[jaffo4011]

well,i think the us had better be prepared to be upset then.the iaf wont be purchasing last generation fighter aircraft which will need replacing and updating at a much earlier stage than the next gen equipment on offer such as the typhoon,gripen and rafale.......what airforce general is going to want to face his opponants over the border with weapons comparable to theirs?...thay will be looking for superior aircraft with definite combat advantages in their favour.

in any case,dont forget that historically india has been permitted to construct the aircraft on their own production lines.witness the previous hal/sepecat jaguar and the current order for bae hawks,so i dont really see the basis for schumies arguement at all.

 

[Aussie Digger]

well,i think the us had better be prepared to be upset then.the iaf wont be purchasing last generation fighter aircraft which will need replacing and updating at a much earlier stage than the next gen equipment on offer such as the typhoon,gripen and rafale.......what airforce general is going to want to face his opponants over the border with weapons comparable to theirs?...thay will be looking for superior aircraft with definite combat advantages in their favour.

in any case,dont forget that historically india has been permitted to construct the aircraft on their own production lines.witness the previous hal/sepecat jaguar and the current order for bae hawks,so i dont really see the basis for schumies arguement at all.

Actually the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet has a MUCH newer design heritage than any of the Eurocanard fighters you mentioned above, with it's design work only commencing in the 90's. Those other fighters are all "80's style man"...

It is the only 1 of those 3 aircraft with an in-service AESA radar. It is the only fighter in the competition to feature any observable RCS reduction measures and comes with arguably the most advanced avionics, EW and EO/IR sensor suite out of any of the competitors and definitely THE most extensive weapons fit of those aircraft you mentioned above.

On a purely technical basis, it's going to be hard to beat in that competition, though these things are hardly decided on technical merit alone...

 

[Waylander]

I am not a pro when it comes to aviation themes and normally I let the wise guys here talk but some things you stated are not right.

The EF has RCS reduction measures and the tech used for it is not "80's style".

It is right that first development steps were taken in the '80's but development went on till now.

Or would you say that the F-22 is "80's style"? Because development of it also began in the 80's.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I am not a pro when it comes to aviation themes and normally I let the wise guys here talk but some things you stated are not right.

The EF has RCS reduction measures and the tech used for it is not "80's style".

It is right that first development steps were taken in the '80's but development went on till now.

Or would you say that the F-22 is "80's style"? Because development of it also began in the 80's.

I was unaware of the RCS reductions on the Typhoon, besides the claims of the manufacturers. Composites may indeed have a reduced RCS over metals, but that wasn't what I was referring to.

I meant the "saw toothed" panels, baffled air inlets etc. To the best of my knowledge Typhoon's do NOT have these type of RCS reducing features. I guess I would also have to say the F-22A is "80's tech" from the POV I meant above. I am not (I hope) a hypocrite?

Obviously ALL of these jets are still undergoing significant development work. The point I was making was the "newer" generation of the Super Hornet purely from when work commenced on the aircraft's design.

 

[Grand Danois]

I was unaware of the RCS reductions on the Typhoon, besides the claims of the manufacturers. Composites may indeed have a reduced RCS over metals, but that wasn't what I was referring to.

I meant the "saw toothed" panels, baffled air inlets etc. To the best of my knowledge Typhoon's do NOT have these type of RCS reducing features. I guess I would also have to say the F-22A is "80's tech" from the POV I meant above. I am not (I hope) a hypocrite?

Obviously ALL of these jets are still undergoing significant development work. The point I was making was the "newer" generation of the Super Hornet purely from when work commenced on the aircraft's design.

Re the EF RCS reduction. It is in the ballpark of the SH, with a S-curved intake and buried engine. Also use of shaping of airframe and inlets, RAM and bandpass materials. Nonetheless, IIRC according to GF and his sources (?) the SH RCS is slightly better than the EF. But he would need to comment on this for accuracy of my comment.

 

[jaffo4011]

Actually the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet has a MUCH newer design heritage than any of the Eurocanard fighters you mentioned above, with it's design work only commencing in the 90's. Those other fighters are all "80's style man"...

It is the only 1 of those 3 aircraft with an in-service AESA radar. It is the only fighter in the competition to feature any observable RCS reduction measures and comes with arguably the most advanced avionics, EW and EO/IR sensor suite out of any of the competitors and definitely THE most extensive weapons fit of those aircraft you mentioned above.

On a purely technical basis, it's going to be hard to beat in that competition, though these things are hardly decided on technical merit alone...

hm,i suppose if they had kept developing the phantom then that would have had the latest gizmos too but it would still have been originally designed in the fifties!.......in the same way,the latest f18 is principally an 70's design but.....'tuned up'!

seriously though if the usn and marines really thought that they could cope for the next 30 yrs with a 70's design then im sure they would have and wouldnt have bothered with the f35 and all the expense that goes with it.
the f18's a good aircraft but in reality its at the end of its development cycle and not the beginning as per the f22,typhoon,rafale etc.

 

[Dave H]

Doesnt the RCS of such types as the Typhoon and the Superhornet mean very little when you start to hang stuff under the wings and fuselage? I assume the radar tests are on clean airframes without pylons, bombs, fuel tanks etc?

 

[jaffo4011]

thats a very good point dave and lets not forget that the usaf now wants to hang ordanance off the wings of the f22 too,somewhat reducing its claim to ultimate stealthiness!

 

[Grand Danois]

Doesnt the RCS of such types as the Typhoon and the Superhornet mean very little when you start to hang stuff under the wings and fuselage? I assume the radar tests are on clean airframes without pylons, bombs, fuel tanks etc?

With small caveats, that's also how I understand it to be.

 

[Grand Danois]

thats a very good point dave and lets not forget that the usaf now wants to hang ordanance off the wings of the f22 too,somewhat reducing its claim to ultimate stealthiness!

Interesting. Got any links or something?

 

[MarcH]

Actually the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet has a MUCH newer design heritage than any of the Eurocanard fighters you mentioned above, with it's design work only commencing in the 90's. Those other fighters are all "80's style man"...

It is the only 1 of those 3 aircraft with an in-service AESA radar. It is the only fighter in the competition to feature any observable RCS reduction measures and comes with arguably the most advanced avionics, EW and EO/IR sensor suite out of any of the competitors and definitely THE most extensive weapons fit of those aircraft you mentioned above.

On a purely technical basis, it's going to be hard to beat in that competition, though these things are hardly decided on technical merit alone...

Actually, you should check your news sources. :lul
Typhoon and Rafale offer RCS reduction, at comparable levels. And considering EW suite, well, SPECTRA and DASS are not directly bad or old fashioned systems.
Does the Super Bug have a towed decoy ? What about electro optical sensors ? Direct voice input ? Supercruise ?
Sorry for beeing so rude, but I'm somewhat pissed off by the actual hyping of the Hornet by Australian officials. One claim was superior network capabilities compared to Typhoon and F-15. I guess the AN/USQ-140 terminal becomes better if placed into a Super Bug. The only aircraft that offers superior network capabilities in comparison to other western fighters is the Gripen, because it offers Link 16 and TILDS.
Well, the F-18 got its front end upgrade for its radar already, while the AESA antennas for RBE2 and Captor are only prototypes.
But the Bug got a pretty poor flight envelope. Especially at supersonic speeds, the Hornet performs very poor in comparison to Rafale/Typhoon.