New Indian Air Force Fighter competition
- Thread starter jaffo4011
- Start date
I cannot let you get away with the “just too high” comment.
If the UK goes ahead with the current plans to purchase Trauche 3 aircraft they will have enough aircraft to equip 7 operational squadrons of 16 aircraft. Remember that the Typhoon is not just replacing the Tornado F2, but the Jaguar and taking on some of the tasks currently under taken by the Harrier and Tornado GR4 aircraft (not to mention the Canberra that when out of service last year).
The UK has already given up two Tranche 1 slots to support the Austrian order and will give up 24 Tranche 2 slots out of the 36 slots available over the next two years, to support the Saudi deal.
Under these arrangements the UK is committed to purchase the full number of aircraft ordered and as you have said will acquire replacement in latter slots.
However the UK is beginning to run out of options. The last Jaguars were scheduled to be withdrawn from service latter this year and to reform with the aircraft that will now be allocated to the RSAAF. The obvious option to delay the retirement of the Jaguar may not be practical, because most of these aircraft are reaching the end of their life, an extension of a few months might just be possible, but not beyond the middle of next year.
Although it has not been officially announced it is common knowledge that the Tornado F2 will remain in service about two years longer than originally planned. Note that these aircraft have not received the same structural modifications as the Tornado GR4 aircraft, so that the remaining few aircraft (the rest have already been retired) will all be out of hours by the beginning of 2010.
So I do not think that there is any further room for the UK to give up production slots for a possible Indian order.
However, EADS will lead the EF team for this prospect and I think they maybe Germany will be able to do a deal on trading slots. Most of their Typhoon aircraft are going to be used to replace Tornado IDS aircraft, so they would prefer to get latter block aircraft. At present the German Air Force is operating about 170 Tornado IDS & ECR aircraft and in the future this will be reduced to 80 aircraft that are undergoing a MLU. The reminder will be retired. Slightly delaying this process could give Germany the chance to offer production slots for 20 – 30 aircraft.
One advantage for both the UK & Germany air forces is that the more deals that are done of this nature the better the chances are of Trauche 3 going ahead.
Apart form the obvious advantages to India in getting aircraft early, the Trauche 2 aircraft will be capable of being updated to the full Trauche 3 standard.
With regards to offsets some manufacturing could be carried out in India, but also could include free of charge (FOC) support for the developing Indian defence industry.
My feeling is that India will not go for Russian aircraft as it does not want to put all its eggs in one basket.
India has and does operate French and British aircraft and indeed some Indian aircraft based on designs from these countries. Although the Rafale is more nature than the Typhoon I think that the Typhoon in the longer term will both be more potent and more development potential.
A key feature of this requirement is time. The old Mig-21 series aircraft have to be replaced quickly before they all drop out of the sky, apart from the tragic loss of pilots; it does no good to the moral of the air force and damages the credibility of the air force and of India.
Gentlemen, please place your bets.
Chris
Yeah, replacing some early EF slots with later ones would also take some pressure of our budget.
But the EF is not mainly a replacement for the Luftwaffe Tornados but for the F-4F PhantomIIs and MiG-29s. All of them get retired (Or have been already) and it is this A2A capability for which we need a replacement fast.
Many Tornados are phased out and some squadrons willbe replaced with EFs but in the end it is not the main replacement.
And more customers for the EF and so a more possible Tranche 3 is always favorable and the EF nations should do nearly everything reasonable to make this happen.
But the EF is not mainly a replacement for the Luftwaffe Tornados but for the F-4F PhantomIIs and MiG-29s. All of them get retired (Or have been already) and it is this A2A capability for which we need a replacement fast.
Many Tornados are phased out and some squadrons willbe replaced with EFs but in the end it is not the main replacement.
And more customers for the EF and so a more possible Tranche 3 is always favorable and the EF nations should do nearly everything reasonable to make this happen.
The 1971 India-Pakistan war - the USA sent a carrier battle group to the Bay of Bengal, encouraged Pakistan to try to hold on in East Pakistan (which led to a perception in both India & Pakistan that what was meant was "hold on until we can come to your aid - e.g. with that CBG") & (officially due to a bureaucratic error, but try to persuade Indians of that) delivered weapons to Pakistan after a US-backed arms embargo on both countries had come into force.
The history of the USA, India & Pakistan is such that many Indians don't trust the USA not to embargo them & support Pakistan (e.g. by supplying secret details of US weapons operated by India) if there's ever another conflict between India & Pakistan, even if started by Pakistan. And in the circumstances, even if you disagree with them, it's easy to understand why they think that way.
Who would have thought in 1971 that one day we would be supplying advanced fighters to eastern bloc nations? And that they would also be a part of NATO?
The 1971 Indo-Pak war did not happen in a vacuum. The Soviet Union backed their guy and we backed ours, and this was a reality in almost every conflict during the Cold War period.
The world has moved on.
What you say is very true Rich but I also agree with the points made by swerve. The world has moved on but mutual trust can take many decades to establish.
Cheers
Schumacher
New Member
http://www.*************.com/reports/2871
A smallish Su-30 deal so close to the big 120-plane deal. Looks to me like a consolation to the Russian, meaning the 120 deal will most likely go to F-18.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Source: http://www.*************.com/reports/2871
Air Force to Acquire 40 Russian-build Su 30 MKI Fighter Jets
Dated 9/2/2007
India will purchase 40 Russian-made Sukhoi-30 fighter jets, an air force spokesman said Thursday. "The government has cleared the proposal to buy the Sukhoi planes and we'll be getting them shortly," Wing Commander Mahesh Upasani said.
He had no details about the cost of the planes or an exact date for their arrival.
India had previously said it was shopping for 126 fighter jets for its air force, but Upasani said the Sukhoi-30 purchase wasn't part of that.
On Wednesday, Defense Minister A.K. Anthony said the country would soon invite bids from combat aircraft makers for the 126 jets. That deal is estimated to be worth between US$6.5 billion and US$10 billion (euro5.4 billion and euro8.3 billion). Anthony's comments were made at the opening of an air show in the southern technology hub of Bangalore.
India also is considering buying nearly 200 army reconnaissance and observation helicopters, Anthony said.
Aviation companies from around the world have flocked to the air show, hoping for a piece of the billions of dollars in defense contracts the South Asian country plans to spend in modernizing its military.
The five-day event at the Yelahanka air base has drawn 500 companies, including 275 foreign companies, more than ever before, Defense Production Secretary K.P. Singh told reporters.
Forty-five foreign delegations and 28 air force chiefs are also attending the biennial show, which comes as India is emerging as one of the biggest buyers of military hardware in the global market.
Copyright © 2007 India Defence. All Rights Reserved.
A smallish Su-30 deal so close to the big 120-plane deal. Looks to me like a consolation to the Russian, meaning the 120 deal will most likely go to F-18.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Source: http://www.*************.com/reports/2871
Air Force to Acquire 40 Russian-build Su 30 MKI Fighter Jets
Dated 9/2/2007
India will purchase 40 Russian-made Sukhoi-30 fighter jets, an air force spokesman said Thursday. "The government has cleared the proposal to buy the Sukhoi planes and we'll be getting them shortly," Wing Commander Mahesh Upasani said.
He had no details about the cost of the planes or an exact date for their arrival.
India had previously said it was shopping for 126 fighter jets for its air force, but Upasani said the Sukhoi-30 purchase wasn't part of that.
On Wednesday, Defense Minister A.K. Anthony said the country would soon invite bids from combat aircraft makers for the 126 jets. That deal is estimated to be worth between US$6.5 billion and US$10 billion (euro5.4 billion and euro8.3 billion). Anthony's comments were made at the opening of an air show in the southern technology hub of Bangalore.
India also is considering buying nearly 200 army reconnaissance and observation helicopters, Anthony said.
Aviation companies from around the world have flocked to the air show, hoping for a piece of the billions of dollars in defense contracts the South Asian country plans to spend in modernizing its military.
The five-day event at the Yelahanka air base has drawn 500 companies, including 275 foreign companies, more than ever before, Defense Production Secretary K.P. Singh told reporters.
Forty-five foreign delegations and 28 air force chiefs are also attending the biennial show, which comes as India is emerging as one of the biggest buyers of military hardware in the global market.
Copyright © 2007 India Defence. All Rights Reserved.
Try to see it from an Indian perspective.
Indians have never seen India-Pakistan issues as having anything to do with the Cold War, or themselves as ever having been part of the Soviet bloc. They find references to India as "the Soviet Unions guy" insulting: they consider themselves to have always been their own guys, & are either baffled or infuriated by US backing for Pakistan against them. They see it as pro-dictatorship, pro-Islamic extremist, anti-freedom, anti-democracy. Sometimes they see it as imperialist, intended to make India subservient.
The USA gives military aid to Pakistan, right now. When Pakistan launched a cross-border attack in 1999, US diplomacy was quite effective in keeping the war limited - but from an Indian point of view, the USA leant towards Pakistan, which was clearly in the wrong (it did attack . . . ), & put pressure on India to prevent the Pakistani army from being punished as it should have been.
As far as I can see, Indians in general are pretty pro-American - but they don't trust US governments, or understand why the USA backs (& that's how they see it) the backward, terrorist-supporting Pakistani dictatorship. As long as the USA appears to Indians to favour Pakistan over India (& I don't see any prospect of that changing in the near future), India will view US governments with deep suspicion.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #30
shumi,as stated earlier in this thread,india is looking for a latest generation air superiority/interdiction aircraft and whilst the super hornet is vast improvement it is still,fundementally, an upgraded last generation aircraft thats reaching the end of its ability to upgrade a great deal:nutkick further...unlike the rafale and typhoon which are at the beginning of their development.also and as per the above,the iaf are unlikely to go with a us option.its just too insecure an order to contemplate.
Well, some here think Pakistani F-16 are a big minus. I think the opposite is correct. If the Indian order really gets expandet to 180, then they will operate nearly 3 times as much as the PAF. Guess who gets support in event of an "armed conflict" 
. And having some DACT aircraft is a nice sideeffect.
Add to this the possibility of using Israeli stuff, just as Singapore does. Further more, I think they already operate Pythons on their Russian and French jets. If I remember correctly, they even tried Archers on M2K.
I think they will go either for the low end (MiG-29) or decide for the F-18.
AESA, assembly contract offered, carriercapble and a vast weaponsrange.
Rafale maybe as third option, as the M2K is very well liked bei the IAF.
. And having some DACT aircraft is a nice sideeffect.Add to this the possibility of using Israeli stuff, just as Singapore does. Further more, I think they already operate Pythons on their Russian and French jets. If I remember correctly, they even tried Archers on M2K.
I think they will go either for the low end (MiG-29) or decide for the F-18.
AESA, assembly contract offered, carriercapble and a vast weaponsrange.
Rafale maybe as third option, as the M2K is very well liked bei the IAF.
i disagree, there will be no low end buying for the MRCA program, the mig 35 is a very capable developement of the Mig 29M2 airframe. The horents will be super E/F types, and the F-16 block 50/52's. Obviosuly both the typhoon and the rafale are both highly capable. India will be buying one of there most capable platforms when they buy the MRCA..
Schumacher
New Member
Just my opinion, IAF will really be sticking their neck out if they go Rafale being the only nation outside France to use it, let alone a hugh 100+ plane deal like this. I'd think EF is much more expensive than F-18 right ? And can they even meet the schedule of IAF ? I think IAF will have to wait behind the Europeans & Saudi. They even had problem meeting the schedule of the small order by S'pore.
But the point abt the political implications of a US order is valid though. However , India, US is much closer these days.
BTW, does anyone know the reason why F-18 & not F-15 are being offered ?
But the point abt the political implications of a US order is valid though. However , India, US is much closer these days.
BTW, does anyone know the reason why F-18 & not F-15 are being offered ?
weasel1962
New Member
Re:
Deleted
Deleted
Last edited:
The F-15 is too large (and pricey) for what they are looking for and one could argue redunent in relation too there Flankers. Also, the F-15 production is about to end, again, i doubt an american platform will be picked. I agree both hornet and eagle are too exspensive. The F-15 does not represent a the best mutirole role plane, since the E varient in heavily weighted towards strike, whereas the super hornet and others have a better balance. The rafale option does have an advantage, its in operational service, its state of the art, and its in eariler, but full production.
No, it isn't. Well, the RFP isn't out yet, but if they were looking for a low cost Mig 21 replacement it would be a totally different matter and you can bet that most contenders wouldn't be in the competition from the start. No, this time they are searching for a high end complement. See earlier posts here.
The F-16 doesn't make any sense at all. Why buy the same plane your main adversary already has? And even if you say they will buy a more sophisticated version and more of it, they still can have a more capable fighter, so why buy F-16s?
And still the F-16 is at it's end. It's further growth potential is very doubtful.
And one point has completely fallen out of sight for many guys here.
The F-35 was designed mainly as a F-16 replacement. When it was started, the main goals were low operating costs and stealth while it was not designed to be more powerful than the Falcon in the first place. You can read it anywhere!
What has become of it is a network centric, stealthy fighter mainly built for ground attack and sure with superb sensor suite and situational awareness.
BUT: It is not as stealthy, agile, sophisticated, powerful as the F-22. So please don't make it a wonder fighter. It isn't.
In fact, outside Australia and the US nobody understands why Australia goes for it.
Typhoon isn't much more expensive than F-18E block II, which is what we're talking about here. Australia is talking about paying $129mn US each, full contract price, for 24 F-18E/II. That's about the same unit price as Austria is paying for 18 Typhoon, including financing costs. The aircraft price, as far as we can untangle it from the contract price & differing national definitions, doesn't seem to be greatly dissimilar.
Delivery schedule - well, since India hasn't even issued a formal RFP yet, I don't see an order being placed soon. There's scope to increase EF production, given sufficient lead time, & there should be enough lead time. Also, Germany might be willing to delay delivery of some aircraft, after there are enough in service to meet urgent air defence needs, & delay retirement of some Tornados. Maybe also Italy. Singapore was a different matter: Singapore wanted particular capabilities, on a particular schedule, which the Typhoon development schedule wouldn't meet on time. Not a production problem.
Dassault definitely has scope to ramp up Rafale production. BTW, if you're going to be the only non-French buyer (& there's still plenty of time for more sales), better to be a big customer than a small one. The other operators of Jaguar are probably mightily relieved that India still has a lot, now it's going out of service in the UK & France has retired it, since the large Indian fleet guarantees continuing supplies of spares & support. Manufacturers don't orphan big customers, only small ones.
F-18 is being offered. Wouldn't make sense to offer F-15 as well.
Since the UAE paid for F-16E/F development, they have some rights. They get royalties on sales, & I suspect they have a say in who can buy it. A complicating factor to consider.
imo, the order for the mrca would not be placed till 2010.....reports from aero india said tht the rfp would be issued by june-july this year with 6 mnths for the contenders to respond. the airforce and MOD will then take atleast a year i.e. by 2008to suggest the possible winners to the government. however india has elections taking place in mid 2008 (as far i as know) and no goverment would risk taking such a political hot potato decision so near election time...especially if the winner is a US company. after elections, if the present congress govt continues then fine if not, then u hv a new govt who will again review the whole process and take its own time to make a decision...so unfortunately we may hv to wait till 2010 n i hv not even taken into account the bureacratic inefficieny of the mod.....