Future USN surface fleet

sidishus

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Good Stuff All Galrahn...

Unfortunately, until a radical change in bureaucracy occurs that was of the same order magnitude that the establishment of the CNO position was early in the last century, then the USN will continue to bump along in the disjointed way it has for the last 15 years.


A swing back in the direction of a General Board of the Navy concept is in order.
 

B.Smitty

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It focuses way too much of the shipbuilding funding on traditional firepower, lacks true innovation, accepts and disregards new concepts without evaluation, and restricts funding for future innovation. It ignores the war of today in an excuse to plan for the war of tomorrow, making assumptions with very little historical precedence.
Interesting post Galrahn.

So what should the major focus of the USN be right now?

Is it overcoming the anti-access/access denial threat?

Is it preserving the national shipbuilding base?

Is it the GWOT?

Is it improving strike capabilities?

Is it improving Marine expeditionary capabilities?

Is it doing more with less dollars?
 

Big-E

Banned Member
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  • #24
Good Stuff All Galrahn...

Unfortunately, until a radical change in bureaucracy occurs that was of the same order magnitude that the establishment of the CNO position was early in the last century, then the USN will continue to bump along in the disjointed way it has for the last 15 years.


A swing back in the direction of a General Board of the Navy concept is in order.
None of that is as important as who is SECNAV depending on their character. If you have a hands on SECNAV they will shape the fleet as they see fit. If you have a SECNAV that lets their CNO role over him then he has more power. Unfortunately politics plays an even bigger role in the future of the fleet.
 

Galrahn

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So what should the major focus of the USN be right now?
These are my opinions, and I am open to discussion/debate and am not rigid in all of my suggestions, although for some I am.

Is it improving strike capabilities?
This should not be a Navy priority until the replacement for the CGs is needed around 2024. That means over the next 17+ years, the Navy needs to be able to develop a class of ships that replaces both the role and capability of the current CGs.

Why 2024? When the US Navy deploys the last of the DDG-51s around 2012, the US Navy main battle line will consist of 22 CGs and 62 DDGs. If you add up the total VLS cells and Harpoon missiles, and combine them with SSN and SSGN VLS cells it represents over 10,000 precision munitions aim points the US Navy can bring to bear against any enemy. That number of 10,000 represents more than the total of the next 17 largest Navies in the world.

Between today and 2024, 372 VLS cells will be retired from the fleet. All of them will be the VLS cells on the 688 submarines. It is unreasonable to assume that any country, even China and its substantial growth, will be able to match the firepower of the US Navy by 2024, so building a class of ships designed for strike warfare would be a misappropriation of funding in my opinion.

Is it overcoming the anti-access/access denial threat?
The question isn't a matter of simply overcoming a future A2/AD threat; it is defining what would constitute the elements of one, and developing reliable strategies that are deployable under those conditions. That isn't a call for more equipment of the battle line, nor is it a call for an expansion of simulation; rather it is a call for more realistic systems for validation of theory. The only way to know for certain how stealthy a 14,000 ship could be is to build one and find out. That doesn't mean you build 7 and hope for the best.

Is it preserving the national shipbuilding base?
Build strategies should do exactly that, at least when possible. The LHD and CVN are good examples, a certain number are needed and the hulls have so many reliable years, so divide by requirement and presto. These ships have continuously represented the best bang for your buck in airpower carriers, and but their funding models don’t necessarily apply to the rest of the fleet. However, building 1 LPD-17 9 years in a row, skipping a year, then building a 10th after a one or two year break represents the polar opposite, which would be an unreliable strategy for construction.

During Rumsfeld's career as SECDEF, this year was the first year the Navy went with the previous years predicted shipbuilding plan. In other years, for the last 6 years the Navy has predicted it would build X ships of Y type the next year, and always changed the plan. With reliability like that, or rather the complete absence of reliability like that, is there really any wonder why shipbuilding has been in such an obvious state of price turmoil? As an American, I certainly hope the Navy can plan a battle better than they can plan a fleet.

Is it the GWOT?
In a word, yes. The GWOT is generational, and will define the current era of the Navy. There is no blue water fleet out there, not even on the mid term horizon, that is anywhere near a head to head challenger for the US Navy, much less a group of challengers to the US and its primary strategic allies at sea. It is a reasonable expectation the GWOT will last at least the next few decades, so building a ship with a 25-35 year hull life to address the unique needs of the conflict isn't a waste of money, rather it is an allocation of funds to a present day priority.

The Navy cannot afford to sit this conflict out. The fights are in littorals, in rivers, at delta's, and in strategic choke points. The American way of war is to have the right equipment, more than enough of it, with motivated, well trained sailors and puts them in a position to deliver the most firepower the furthest, faster than the opponent.

Based on what I can tell, the Navy can't even get focused enough on the GWOT to deploy a River Squadron yet, despite having almost 2 years to do so. A 3000 ton frigate may or may not be effective in the GWOT, but if it can't sail up the Niger River to help the Nigerian Navy kick some tail when called upon, the Navy isn't focused to fight this war.

Is it doing more with less dollars?
No, it is about being smart with the dollars available, and rebuilding platforms that are in need of replacement instead of spending money to build more of what isn't needed. Aircraft have been heavily deployed in the Middle East, many airframes expected to last the next couple decades have already been stressed beyond their limit, and retired. Resetting the Naval air elements, resetting the submarine fleet, and resetting the logistical arm of the US Navy would be the prudent, wise thing to do. The Navy has instead chosen to wait until funding is required to reset retiring surface vessels and SSBNs to also reset the stuff that needs to be reset today, and use the funds today to build more surface vessels that are not intended to replace what is out there today.

Is it improving Marine expeditionary capabilities?
This is very much an issue, for this war, the next war, and non war situations. The Navy is operating in an era where there are fewer forward bases to cover a larger, more disperse area of operations, fighting lightly armed but well funded groups that do not function as traditional militaries. The primary methods of counter strategy include rapid deployment of military and non military assets to troubled regions as required by conditions. This may represent a MEU deployment to Southeastern Asian islands or a humanitarian mission to Pakistan, but regardless of mission, the best platform for response is the L class ships and its unique capability.

I am very encouraged by the concept, the proposed idea, and particularly the limited description but large scope in the Global Fleet Station concept. I see it as potentially a very wise adaptation of the Sea Basing idea that I have been a strong critic of over the last few years.

The requirements of a Global Fleet Station could vary from the need to put brigades of troops into combat from an offshore position, securing oil platforms and other territories at sea, neutralizing island locations that offer adversaries freedom of deployment of SSMs in strategic choke points, humanitarian missions to natural or manmade disasters, offshore support capability in a NBC environment, or most importantly, a new way to preempt war by providing a series of systems designed to enable local authorities with regional partners with both political and military options in areas of potential crisis before the crisis occurs.

Regardless of the requirement though, no platform in the US Navy is better suited for such a variety of roles than a platform that can support both ships and aircraft, from well decks and flight decks respectfully.

The US Navy should build up its Marine Expeditionary capability to the minimum 2.5 MEBs, and see what it can do to get to 3 or beyond. One of the things that has been missing in the whole Sea Base concept is a real debate, discussion, and evaluation of options. If you were putting together "Macarthur's Navy" today, what would it look like and why? Would it be Joint Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine like Macarthur's Navy was? Would it bring its aviation capabilities with it like Macarthur's Navy did? Would it have the logistics train for any contingency like Macarthur's Navy had? The Sea Base concept has none of that, not even scaled down to the 1 MEB the 15 proposed ships would support.

Again, just one more example how the large lead enjoyed by the US Navy today is best utilized developing important new strategies, and building realistic technology demonstrators, that are relevant to both today's war, and tomorrows.

Again, sorry so long. I'm in a ranting mood this week.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
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The Groton yard has built USS Hawai 2 million man ours ahead of schedule. I don't know how much labor cost that is but it has to be alot. If we can get productvity like this out of our yards we might just be able to afford more than 30 Virginias.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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The Groton yard has built USS Hawai 2 million man ours ahead of schedule. I don't know how much labor cost that is but it has to be alot. If we can get productvity like this out of our yards we might just be able to afford more than 30 Virginias.
I was lucky enough to go to a presentation on the Virginias in Hawai'i in late 2003. The presentation was chaired by CINCPAC and staged by EB and NG staff.

The stuff detailed about advances in new construction methods was absolutely amazing - they were literally getting perfect fitments on all modules every time without having to go back and accomodate alighnment shifts. This is on a boat that is the very first to be completely designed by computer. The head of the design team literally cleared out all the draughting boards so as to ensure that everyone was using the software tools properly.

A couple of the NAVSEA blokes had some inside shots of an Akula - and when you compared it to the available Seawolf shots it was like looking at a Ford Victoria compared to a current S Series Mercedes. chalk and cheese.

I came out of that session wishing that Collins was a little bigger, and with a nuke engine so that we could run more sympathetic gear.... :D

(actually I came out surprised at how much component gear in the Collins is also found in latter US nukes.. )
 

Big-E

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So is this new technology going to mean that all the yards will get this type of efficiency? Can we still split the orders and not worry about the two different yards having problems?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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So is this new technology going to mean that all the yards will get this type of efficiency?
Yes.


Can we still split the orders and not worry about the two different yards having problems?
If need be the yards could cross supply parts for each other and know that they would fit.

One of the requirements for Virginia was that the yards had to be able to assist and support each other if necessary. The design really is modular across all aspects at a component level.

One of the interesting things to come out of it was that when they reviewed the build process prior to commencing electronic design, they looked at worlds best practice manufacturers and "whole of concept shops" so as to realise new efficiencies and to approach it from a completely new level.

The successful model chosen was the process designed by Lexus (Toyota). The design software is French :D

One of the things that I admired about the way that the whole thing was reviewed was that parochialism was ignored, and there was a complete willingness to get best of breed, even if it wasn't american. Still, I've always found that USN people I've dealt with are eternal pragmatists when it comes to crunch time. ....
 

alexsa

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I do agree with giving LCS a multi-role but, can the LCS mount 1 AGS without increasing size or reducing capability? It takes alot to mount a 5 inch gun with an auto loader and 600 rd magazine. I doubt it would meet mission requirements if converted for that. The AGS would have to go on something larger..
Hmmm, forgive me if I ma wrong but are you talking about put the AGs on the LCS. Three issue here:

1. LSC is a lightwieht hull high speed built of alloy. Currently it is being built to take a 57mm. The 155mm is a whole differenet ball game in regards to the structure of the vessel and its longtitudinal CoG. the sutructure to support the gun system (including loader and magazine) as well as the need to wihtstand the recoil could be more than the lihgtweight hull could handle without a massive redesign (if at all).

2. The current mission payload of the LCS is only about 400 tonnes. One AGS and ammo and structure will eat this up and more.

3. This is not a hull designed to flog around the ocaen on deep sea escort work ... it is simply not built for it. the GD hull is based on a 127m high speed ferry built to the HSC code. the Lockheed desing is of a similar ilk. the have to be to get the speed.

I have attached a bit of a blurb on the HSC code for information.

http://www.imo.org/Safety/mainframe.asp?topic_id=352
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That's exactly what I said... it not so many words. ;)
Sorry I must have misunderstood you. I thought you were advocating putting the AGS on the LCS ......... the visual on that is not good.
 

B.Smitty

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
This should not be a Navy priority until the replacement for the CGs is needed around 2024. That means over the next 17+ years, the Navy needs to be able to develop a class of ships that replaces both the role and capability of the current CGs.

Why 2024? When the US Navy deploys the last of the DDG-51s around 2012, the US Navy main battle line will consist of 22 CGs and 62 DDGs. If you add up the total VLS cells and Harpoon missiles, and combine them with SSN and SSGN VLS cells it represents over 10,000 precision munitions aim points the US Navy can bring to bear against any enemy. That number of 10,000 represents more than the total of the next 17 largest Navies in the world.

Between today and 2024, 372 VLS cells will be retired from the fleet. All of them will be the VLS cells on the 688 submarines. It is unreasonable to assume that any country, even China and its substantial growth, will be able to match the firepower of the US Navy by 2024, so building a class of ships designed for strike warfare would be a misappropriation of funding in my opinion.
I think a lot can be done to reduce the total price per DMPI of strikes from the surface fleet. However I think the primary means of doing so uses neither VLS, TLAM nor warships.

If the Affordable Weapon can become a $100k-ish weapon that can be fired from containers on transport ships, and be suitable for 60-70% of likely targets, then it should make a significant dent in the strike supremacy of airpower. It may also render TLAMs to bit-player status.

The question isn't a matter of simply overcoming a future A2/AD threat; it is defining what would constitute the elements of one, and developing reliable strategies that are deployable under those conditions. That isn't a call for more equipment of the battle line, nor is it a call for an expansion of simulation; rather it is a call for more realistic systems for validation of theory. The only way to know for certain how stealthy a 14,000 ship could be is to build one and find out. That doesn't mean you build 7 and hope for the best.
Seems that there are reasonably good definitions for what constitutes an A2/AD threat out there - some combination of quiet diesel-electric subs, mines, small boat swarms, and land-based airpower/AShMs.

IMHO, the DD(X) isn't much of a counter A2/AD system. It seems to be a straightforward extension of cold-war thinking.


In a word, yes. The GWOT is generational, and will define the current era of the Navy. There is no blue water fleet out there, not even on the mid term horizon, that is anywhere near a head to head challenger for the US Navy, much less a group of challengers to the US and its primary strategic allies at sea. It is a reasonable expectation the GWOT will last at least the next few decades, so building a ship with a 25-35 year hull life to address the unique needs of the conflict isn't a waste of money, rather it is an allocation of funds to a present day priority.

The Navy cannot afford to sit this conflict out. The fights are in littorals, in rivers, at delta's, and in strategic choke points. The American way of war is to have the right equipment, more than enough of it, with motivated, well trained sailors and puts them in a position to deliver the most firepower the furthest, faster than the opponent.

Based on what I can tell, the Navy can't even get focused enough on the GWOT to deploy a River Squadron yet, despite having almost 2 years to do so. A 3000 ton frigate may or may not be effective in the GWOT, but if it can't sail up the Niger River to help the Nigerian Navy kick some tail when called upon, the Navy isn't focused to fight this war.
IMHO, GWOT may not be sexy enough for the USN.

It doesn't cater to large, high-tech, big ticket items.

From a naval perspective, GWOT really has more in common with law enforcement activities than warfighting.

Personally, I feel this aspect can be better handled by an expansion of the USCG and its Deepwater program. The LCS might be valuable for countering A2/AD threats, but the Deepwater cutters are far more appropriate for "fighting" the GWOT.

RAND recently provided estimates for what they thought the USCG would need to meet it's traditional roles and emerging responsibilities.

National Security Cutter (NSC)
Original Deepwater Plan - 8
Total RAND/CNA estimated requirement - 44

Offshore Patrol Cutter (OPC)
Original Deepwater Plan - 25
Total RAND/CNA estimated requirement - 46

Fast Response Cutter (FRC)
Original Deepwater Plan - 58
Total RAND/CNA estimated requirement - 90

Perhaps this is more pressing need than funding a small number of DD(X)s and a large number of LCSs for a potential major conflict that may never occur.


This is very much an issue, for this war, the next war, and non war situations. The Navy is operating in an era where there are fewer forward bases to cover a larger, more disperse area of operations, fighting lightly armed but well funded groups that do not function as traditional militaries. The primary methods of counter strategy include rapid deployment of military and non military assets to troubled regions as required by conditions. This may represent a MEU deployment to Southeastern Asian islands or a humanitarian mission to Pakistan, but regardless of mission, the best platform for response is the L class ships and its unique capability.
I wonder if this is really the case.

Seems like we can get a lot more large hulls for the money by expanding the idea of using cheap MPF(E)s as SPECFOR bases.

We're paying a whopping $145 million to buy and convert the Tarago into an MPF(E). That's a far cry from the cost of building any L-series ship.

For anything short of actual warfighting, this may be a more cost-effective way to go.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
I was in San Diego about a week ago and noticed at the Sub base there that a Ohio class was docked there, any ideas if this could be a SSGN, I thought it was odd as generally the boomers aren't in San Diego to my knowledge, also got a couple of happy snaps of the Gotland SSK, lol it looks so small compared to the SSN's
 

contedicavour

New Member
Just out of curiosity, does somebody know how much the USN pays for the lease of the Gotland SSK for littoral ASW training ?

cheers
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Thompson Files: Stick with the DDG-51

By LOREN B. THOMPSON

Published: June 10, 2008 at 12:09 PM

If you think having three surface warfare officers in a row at the helm of the U.S. Navy has created a bias in favor of surface combatants, then you must not be paying attention to news about naval shipbuilding.

While a reasonably coherent road map has emerged for replacing Cold War aircraft carriers and submarines, plans for a family of future surface combatants are in disarray. That's a problem, because surface combatants -- frigates, destroyers, cruisers -- are the most common types of warship in the modern Navy. A growing chorus of critics is complaining that the failure of service leaders to provide a convincing rationale for next-generation surface combatants is putting the entire fleet modernization plan in jeopardy.

The latest salvo in this ongoing battle was fired June 2 by Christopher P. Cavas of Defense News, arguably the most capable journalist currently covering the U.S. Navy.

Reporting on the service's limp efforts to explain to Congress why a bloated next-generation destroyer designated DDG-1000 needs to be built, Cavas noted that after 10 years of development the Navy still hasn't come up with a convincing rationale for the warship, and "many officers remain confused about the destroyer's abilities and intended use." He went on to cite a veteran officer opining that the failure of Navy leaders to strongly support the destroyer is gradually killing the program.

That certainly seems to be the case. DDG-1000 grew out of an earlier program called DD-21 that was superseded in 2001 by a proposed family of future surface combatants. In addition to the new destroyer, there would be a missile-defense cruiser designated CG(X) and a frigate replacement designed for shallow-water operations called the Littoral Combat Ship.

The Littoral Combat Ship has made good progress, although Navy Secretary Donald Winter recently picked a fight with both of the industry teams developing the vessel, objecting to cost growth that arose mainly out of the service's unrealistic cost estimates when the effort first began. Winter will depart government service soon, and the littoral ship program can then get back on track.

But DDG-1000 and the companion missile-defense cruiser are another matter. At first, the U.S. Navy said it wanted 32 next-generation destroyers. Then it said 24. Then it said 12. Now it says it wants seven, and congressional critics such as Rep. Gene Taylor, D-Miss., are saying two should be enough.

The problem with DDG-1000 isn't the technology, which is cutting-edge and eventually can be applied across the whole fleet. The problem is that the basic concept of the warship was misconceived. It displaces 14,500 tons of water, making it about 50 percent bigger than current DDG-51 destroyers, because it is built around two rapid-firing 155mm guns that are supposed to lob highly accurate shells 100 miles inland in support of forces ashore.

Imagine floating off the coast of China or Iran and firing shells ashore. How long would such a ship survive? The whole idea is improbable. Which is why Congress needs to listen to Taylor and others who say the best course of action is to end the DDG-1000 effort and continue buying the existing DDG-51 destroyer.

DDG-51 costs half as much to build as DDG-1000, and internal naval studies show it still has plenty of margin for growth in missions such as missile defense, anti-submarine warfare and land attack. It is already the most capable surface combatant operating anywhere in the world, and transitioning its Aegis combat system to a continuously improving open architecture would enable it to stay that way for decades to come, with sizable reductions in crew size. So why would we stop building a winner like DDG-51 when its planned replacement is clearly such a loser?
I too am a bit disturbed on the "basic concept" of the DDG-1000. At 14,500 tons displacement (sure to grow) and twice the size of a DDG-51 (imagine the draft increase) it will also be shut out of many ports world wide.

I never quite understood the rational of no follow-on to the FFG-7 class which gave wide access to the USN around the world (sorry the LCS doesn't count).

The USN should build more DDG-51's. I feel we have a winner in the DDG-51 in terms of capability, growth potential, and cost for decades to come.

Link to original
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I too am a bit disturbed on the "basic concept" of the DDG-1000. At 14,500 tons displacement (sure to grow) and twice the size of a DDG-51 (imagine the draft increase) it will also be shut out of many ports world wide.

I never quite understood the rational of no follow-on to the FFG-7 class which gave wide access to the USN around the world (sorry the LCS doesn't count).

The USN should build more DDG-51's. I feel we have a winner in the DDG-51 in terms of capability, growth potential, and cost for decades to come.

Link to original
The US Navy has never considered frigates front line warships. The OHPerrys were built for a Cold War standard of providing ocean escorts. The Cold War is over, and there aren't any nations threatening a submarine blockade of NATO ports across the North Atlantic any more. On the other hand many more nations have a small number of submarines lurking about. Thus, the US Navy is attempting with the LCS to replace old cold warriors with a multi-role vessel useful for mine hunting, ASW ocean patrols, and littorial missions. Using plug-in container operating centers to bring a common ship up to the tasks of either of these missions.

Frankly, the US designed frigates since WWII have not impressed many. The Europeans have had much better luck with designing proper frigates. But each of the European nations consider frigates warships of the first caliber, the US Navy doesn't.

While the European nations scramble to build a few destroyers each, the US has been able to afford at least 62 Burkes, with Congress buying more in the future over new more expensive designs.

Furthermore, the reason why the US has built so many destroyers instead of frigates deal with the fact most of the crisis areas have been overseas, a long way from the US. Thus the larger destroyers to carry more fuel, along with more weaponry.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
But each of the European nations consider frigates warships of the first caliber, the US Navy doesn't.
Not true for at least the RN and MN.

And other nations such as Germany, Italy or Greece used to operate DDGs (C.F.Adams and comparable, such as the Impavidos) as their "first caliber" - but replaced them with ships with the more politically opportune designation "frigate".

The split came pretty much in the 70s, with the US pretty much going for "cruiser-sized" destroyers at that point (the Sprucans), and Europe continuing to build 4000- to 5000-ton DDGs (and often calling them "frigates" at that point already) - such as the Dutch Tromp FFG or the Italian Audace DDG. The French, interestingly, took a middle road at that point with the considerably bigger F67 DDGs.

Frigates as DEs per se were built in addition to these DDGs in most navies.
 
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