German Navy: Third Combat Support Ship instead of F125-Frigates?

[Waylander]

I agree this could be a good solution but I would stay with 8 rather than 12 subs for us. Should be enough.
The saved money can be used to make a true multirole FFG with good ASW capabilties out of the F125 and give the U212A a good and versatile land attack capability.

 

[contedicavour]

It is my undestanding that only 5 K130 have been ordered/financed ?
On U212A, my count was 6 so far.
On F125, 4 ships planned to replace 8 F122.
Option on 4th F124 not taken up.

=> It is true that the German economy has been performing very well recently, but is it enough to give any hope of budget reinforcements to allow for (for example) land attack missiles such as SCALP or new amphib ships ?

cheers

 

[Waylander]

Your numbers are right.

And you are also right when stating that our economy runs good now.
But in Germany the Bundeswehr is the last one to get any money if we have a plus in our budget.

There are rumours about that we stop financing our oversea missions with the normal Bundeswehr budget and do it with an additional budget. If this would happen (I am doubtfull about this as always when it comes to money for the Bundeswehr) it would give the Bundeswehr some air to breath because just now it is nearly bancrupt.

This is the biggest problem in Germany. Every western army (even the US to some extent) has financing problems but unlike in the UK for example our troops get more and more missions while shrinking of the budget goes on.

 

[contedicavour]

Your numbers are right.

And you are also right when stating that our economy runs good now.
But in Germany the Bundeswehr is the last one to get any money if we have a plus in our budget.

There are rumours about that we stop financing our oversea missions with the normal Bundeswehr budget and do it with an additional budget. If this would happen (I am doubtfull about this as always when it comes to money for the Bundeswehr) it would give the Bundeswehr some air to breath because just now it is nearly bancrupt.

This is the biggest problem in Germany. Every western army (even the US to some extent) has financing problems but unlike in the UK for example our troops get more and more missions while shrinking of the budget goes on.

Yep same situation in Italy => most left wing parties consider missions financing as integral to our defence budget, as if the military were asking to go get shot at in Iraq, Afghanistan or Lebanon. So the more missions we get the least equipped we shall be. Wondeful :lul
Luckily the cooler heads in the government have at least found several tools to fund off budget a number of procurement deals (such as R&D Ministry of Industry funds). There's still some hope behind creative accounting

cheers

 

[Waylander]

Jup, some of those special procurements (Like for Dingo vehicles) are also done here in Germany.

The problem is not only that the government wants the Bundeswehr to do every new mission with the same budget but for them the best would be these missions would be like red cross missions with camo uniforms.
That if you might need to do what an army is for (fighting) if you participate in operations like in A-stan is not in their mind till now.

The recent talsk here about our Recce Tornados for A-stan is a good example.
There are many politicians which call for us not letting other nations use our Tornado recon informations for attacking enemy positions.

 

[Galrahn]

It is an interesting point both of you indirectly raised. It appears that western countries are realizing this century is going to require extensive military involvement, and not even necessarily for war, to stay ahead politically.

Yet at the same time there is a political mindset being enforced to reject the funding for preparing for this reality. In other words, despite recognition, despite political executives engaging in these military enterprises, the government bodies outside the executive in virtually every country is finding other items for the available funding.

I find it a quark in history that by spending on social programs, western nations are enslaving themselves to commitments that can be disrupted and lead to political disaster by economic loss. As an example, I sortof wonder if in 20 years if the US continues to increase its overburdening commitments to social programs, would the US survive a 9/11 military strike that makes a 9/11 type economic event in our country.

Given the complete inability of most western governments to roll back any type of social program implimented, I fail to see western nations leading the world in military power by the end of the century unless some major political change occurs in western politics.

 

[Waylander]

In case of the US I don't see this problems. There I more see the problem that it turns into another extreme position.

The defense sector is round about 64% of the total US budget which is extremely huge. Too huge in my eyes with the social situation in the US for parts of the population being not very good.

A nice middle way between the US and us would be good.

 

[contedicavour]

The recent talsk here about our Recce Tornados for A-stan is a good example.
There are many politicians which call for us not letting other nations use our Tornado recon informations for attacking enemy positions.

Yes this is completely crazy... in Lebanon and previously in Iraq politicians didn't want us to deploy anything heavier than slightly armoured trucks, out of fear that Italian public opinion could consider this a war mission.
It's only after we lost 18 soldiers and MPs in a terrorist attack and after several attacks on convoys that we got the green light to send MBTs and wheeled tank destroyers to provide heavy escort to convoys and key fixed posts. Even then, sending attack helos Mangusta was considered out of the question...
To summarize, equipment sent over is not on the base on real needs, it's based on the political spin that is created around the operation. Polls are more important than soldiers' lives. :lul

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

To go back to topic, ie the building of amphibious support ships for the German Navy, which German divisions are considered deployable for international missions ? Since there is no dedicated Marine force, are there Army divisions/regiments that have a Marine-like training ?

cheers

 

[Waylander]

This is another problem.

We have no dedicated marine infantry. We have our light naval guard infantry which has increased its capability to support our naval assets on oversea harbors and doing boarding action but nothing else.
So we would use our normal light infantry for this. If we would mainly use helicopters we would especially have one airmobile regiment and two airborn brigades which could do this but none of them has the ability to do traditional amphibious operations.
So without creating a marine regiment for example we would not really be able to use such an amphibious ship with all its benefits.

 

[contedicavour]

This is another problem.

We have no dedicated marine infantry. We have our light naval guard infantry which has increased its capability to support our naval assets on oversea harbors and doing boarding action but nothing else.
So we would use our normal light infantry for this. If we would mainly use helicopters we would especially have one airmobile regiment and two airborn brigades which could do this but none of them has the ability to do traditional amphibious operations.
So without creating a marine regiment for example we would not really be able to use such an amphibious ship with all its benefits.

Interesting. And another reason to give priority to F125 numbers over any potential new amphibious ship. For pure overseas deployment of a regiment, you can just loan ro-ro ships and liners. Building a pure amphibious ship designed to land (by LCAC for example) troops under fire you need trained marine regiments. Germany can leave that to other allied countries and keep on helping NATO with its powerful armoured army regiments.

cheers

 

[Waylander]

That's it.
Maby another EGV with increased helicopter capability would be something to think about but a real amphibious ship should not have a priority. This would give our airmobile/airborn infantry a platform for evac ops to some level without the need for an expensive amphibious ship which we couldn't even really use.

BTW, you as a naval fan should be jealous about what I found today on my way to university.

[img=http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2122/cimg2855si0.th.jpg]

 

[contedicavour]

That's it.
Maby another EGV with increased helicopter capability would be something to think about but a real amphibious ship should not have a priority. This would give our airmobile/airborn infantry a platform for evac ops to some level without the need for an expensive amphibious ship which we couldn't even really use.

BTW, you as a naval fan should be jealous about what I found today on my way to university.

[img=http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/2122/cimg2855si0.th.jpg]

Oh ho the 3rd U212A of the German Navy ) it sure is pleasant to walk to work and seeing that on your way ! Btw what does a Leo2 tank chief do in Navyland (Kiel) ?

cheers

 

[Waylander]

Studying after I left the Bundeswehr.
And Kiel is one of the best german universities for international business.

BTW, my former tank bn wasn't stationed far away from Kiel.

 

[swerve]

...
BTW, my former tank bn wasn't stationed far away from Kiel.

Ready to repel the invading Danes

 

[Waylander]

We did it in the 1860s and we will do it again!

 

[Grand Danois]

We did it in the 1860s and we will do it again!

Hrmpf! But we took the first round 1848-1851. And Prussia and Austria was the outside meddler. Else it would have been a civil war.

 

[Waylander]

Ok, you get a point.

In the end we had a danish sister tank btl and I like the Tarnfleck version you wear. :denmark :germany :cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

Ok, you get a point.

In the end we had a danish sister tank btl and I like the Tarnfleck version you wear. :denmark :germany :cheers

Well, the only reason to invade today is obviously the beer. So beware.

Anyway, nothing was lost. The wars were a convulsion of the transition from a feudal state to a nation state. Unfortunate circumstances, stubborness on the Danish side and opportunism from Bismarck.

 

[contedicavour]

Studying after I left the Bundeswehr.
And Kiel is one of the best german universities for international business.

BTW, my former tank bn wasn't stationed far away from Kiel.

Kiel's IFW ? Very good university indeed ! I studied international economics at Bocconi in Milan and we had (though it was quite a lot of time ago ) visiting professors from IFW.

Back to topic : how many Type 206 are still operational as we speak ?

cheers