Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Simon9]

It fires from standard weapons, I've seen it in both 5.56 and 9mm. As Waylander said it's used for CQB and fight-through lanes.

Three years in China, that's a long time! Did you go on one of those English-teaching programs or what?

Anyway, good luck with the recovery, and hurry back, we need ya. Plenty of spaces to fill now.

 

[rickshaw]

I guess when they changed from the SLR to the F-88, they was going to be problems with conversion to a bullpup design. IIRC there were some ARA members not F-88 quallified in 94-95. It is commom for change in the millitary not to go smoothly. Old habits and old training methods do take time to change. I remember here alot of "in my day we didn't do this or that" and I guess it would continue today. I'm sure I will say it to when I strap on the boots again.
Most of the time when I had double feeds, it was with blank ammo. My thoughts on that is when you are using ball ammo, the empty case is shorter than when you are using blank. With the blank round, when it was fired the tip of the round would bust open and not cleanly. This might be why the rounds sometimes failed the eject smoothly. It might not had enough gas pressure to do the job.
A question to Old Faithful. How were the plastic 7.62mm blanks with the SLR? Any problems with double feeds? Cook offs? Maybe this might be a idea to look at with the F-88. Change the blank ammo, make the casings out of a different material. Just a thought

Double-feeds are caused by insufficient gas being diverted from the barrel to the piston (and in the F-88 thence to the operating rod) to force the working parts rearward sufficienty to allow the round to clear the ejection port. It is not a problem caused by deformation of the round. I've known all weapons to suffer from doublefeeds, be they firing blank or ball ammunition. It is invariably casued by a combination of fouling and as I mentioned insufficient gas generation.

 

[rickshaw]

Yeah double feeds happen a lot with blanks. Even more now because they reduced the charge in the blanks some years ago (around 2000 I think) after some guys were injured when 'shot' with blanks. The blanks just don't always have the power to recock the weapon fully, especially once you get a bit of dirt or lack of oil.

But they almost never happen with live rounds. I don't mind the double feeds because it gives the soldiers a heck of a lot of practice at their stoppage drills.

One illustration of this is the video on youtube found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUnaHXok2TM

At approximately the 1:00 mark you can see a stoppage cleared with commendable speed.

While at the 1:30 mark you'll note that the firer puts several rounds into "dead" bodies. While commendable tactics, its rather foolish to show it occuring when it might well be considered to constitute a war crime. I also found they weren't using sufficient grenades nor firing through walls - although both would be difficult to simular through the use of lasers. :lol:

 

[Tasman]

Originally Posted by Simon9
Yeah double feeds happen a lot with blanks. Even more now because they reduced the charge in the blanks some years ago (around 2000 I think) after some guys were injured when 'shot' with blanks. The blanks just don't always have the power to recock the weapon fully, especially once you get a bit of dirt or lack of oil.

But they almost never happen with live rounds. I don't mind the double feeds because it gives the soldiers a heck of a lot of practice at their stoppage drills.

One illustration of this is the video on youtube found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUnaHXok2TM

At approximately the 1:00 mark you can see a stoppage cleared with commendable speed.

Thanks for the link Simon. Good point about stoppages caused by blanks providing practice at their stoppage drills. In this case carrying out the drill in a pressure situation would be a useful experience at clearing a jammed weapon when there is little time to stop and think about it.

Cheers

 

[Tasman]

While at the 1:30 mark you'll note that the firer puts several rounds into "dead" bodies. While commendable tactics, its rather foolish to show it occuring when it might well be considered to constitute a war crime.

Good point rickshaw. Whilst it is probably realistic training, the media is always ready to seize on this sort of thing to show soldiers in a poor light. IMO they should train for it but leave the 'nasty' bits out of PR films.

Cheers

 

[rickshaw]

Solution...paintball rounds. This would keep your bounds shorter and your arse down. Different colours for the opfor...see who really did shoot they mate in the arse. A bit of pain for sloppy training before you get tapped for real.

I'd like to see how you make a gas-operated service rifle work with a paintball round. I have an alternative solution. Why not mix 1 ball round in a hundred blanks a'la Heinlein's "Starship Trooper". It would make for very high degrees of realism, if that is what you want.

 

[rickshaw]

Good point rickshaw. Whilst it is probably realistic training, the media is always ready to seize on this sort of thing to show soldiers in a poor light. IMO they should train for it but leave the 'nasty' bits out of PR films.

Cheers

If the media had heard what I learnt when a digger, they'd have fits. I used to have a platoon sergeant who had two tours in Vietnam. He carried a meathook attached to 20 metres of rope, on his webbing and commended all of us to do likewise. He used to explain how useful it was after an ambush for turning over bodies of "suspected" dead enemy. An SASR trooper was courtmartialed a few years ago for apparently turning the body of an ambushed Taleban fighter over with his toe. Imagine what would happen if we start using meathooks again?

I would if they still call them "killing teams" as part of the post-ambush clearing drill?

 

[sunderer]

I'd like to see how you make a gas-operated service rifle work with a paintball round. I have an alternative solution. Why not mix 1 ball round in a hundred blanks a'la Heinlein's "Starship Trooper". It would make for very high degrees of realism, if that is what you want.

When i was a recruit we were not allowed to use blanks for a while because someone had done just that,mixed live with blank.

 

[rickshaw]

When i was a recruit we were not allowed to use blanks for a while because someone had done just that,mixed live with blank.

I was on one exercise when we discovered a couple of boxes of ball mixed in with several pallets of blank. You should have seen the signals fly over that one. All issues Oz wide were halted while they sorted it out. :lol:

 

[Simon9]

I would if they still call them "killing teams" as part of the post-ambush clearing drill?

No, they are called 'Searchers.' Also, an ambush no longer has a Killing Ground. It has an Engagement Area.

As for the double-tapping, well, that's still standard practice. It seems odd that it might be fine to shoot them while they are alive... but heaven forbid if you shoot them when they are dead.

 

[Aussie Digger]

No, they are called 'Searchers.' Also, an ambush no longer has a Killing Ground. It has an Engagement Area.

As for the double-tapping, well, that's still standard practice. It seems odd that it might be fine to shoot them while they are alive... but heaven forbid if you shoot them when they are dead.

And with all those meatheads who will "flood" future deployments, "getting away" with it might be a bit difficult too...

 

[Mick73]

Double-feeds are caused by insufficient gas being diverted from the barrel to the piston (and in the F-88 thence to the operating rod) to force the working parts rearward sufficienty to allow the round to clear the ejection port. It is not a problem caused by deformation of the round. I've known all weapons to suffer from doublefeeds, be they firing blank or ball ammunition. It is invariably casued by a combination of fouling and as I mentioned insufficient gas generation.

When I was knocking around with some other AUG's, I did notice that the operating rods were a lot more firmer (they didn't bend as much as the F-88's), this also could be a factor to the double feed. Apart from the double feeds and the safty catch becoming rather loose with age. I like the F-88. Now the Browning 9mm, that another story...

 

[kotay]

In the youtube video, I noticed a AN/PEQ-2 like device attached to the right side of the scope/carrying handle.

2 questions ... Is that what I think it is? Is it standard issue (in the ADF) for all missions or only for MOUT?

I don't remember seeing it for most other piccies I've seen of Aussie troops.

 

[Simon9]

Yes, it is what you think it is. It's called a NAD (Night Aiming Device) and it's the Australian equivalent of the AN/PEQ-2.

And yes, it's standard issue. Australian soldiers SHOULD have them fitted (or at least have the mounting bracket fitted) in most operational photos you see. If you take the bracket off it needs to be re-zeroed which is a pain to do.

 

[Aussie Digger]

In the youtube video, I noticed a AN/PEQ-2 like device attached to the right side of the scope/carrying handle.

2 questions ... Is that what I think it is? Is it standard issue (in the ADF) for all missions or only for MOUT?

I don't remember seeing it for most other piccies I've seen of Aussie troops.

The "NAD's" began to be issued to Australian Soldiers prior to Timor in 99. It rather impressed the Indonesian's in Timor when their Commanders saw the aim points on their troops, or so I'm reliably informed... :

 

[kotay]

Thanks for the response guys. One more question ... how would the NAD be mounted on the Steyr A2/A3? Or is it a case of not issued to troops with A2/A3?

It rather impressed the Indonesian's in Timor when their Commanders saw the aim points on their troops, or so I'm reliably informed... :

Similar experience here, we found that the red dots had a certain intimidation factor ... more effective than simply pointing the weapon and shouting a warning or so I've been informed too

 

[Simon9]

Thanks for the response guys. One more question ... how would the NAD be mounted on the Steyr A2/A3? Or is it a case of not issued to troops with A2/A3?

There is a different mount for the A2, or F88S as we call it. In true army fashion, this mount requires a different sized Allen key from the standard mount!

 

[rickshaw]

And with all those meatheads who will "flood" future deployments, "getting away" with it might be a bit difficult too...

All it means is that the fine old digger tradition of obeying the 11 Commandment - "Thou shall not get caught!" Will be raised to a much higher level. :lol:

Always remember its not what you do necessarily that is important, it is what you are seen doing, which is important or so my RSM OLWO impressed upon me upon more than one occasion.

 

[Mick73]

Like carrying a note book/ folder and pen. If you look like you are busy, the chance of some other poor sod getting a random "Emu Bob" job for fun.
The NAD was a good replacement for the "Comms Rock" at night. It also helped reduce "Blue on blue" situations from becoming a "Who the F***'s that" and keeping ya finger off the trigger. I remember one night, got zapped by a wandering patrol and a few careful taps on the pressure switch, sorted out the run in. We had an in house SOP on it. Funny thing was it was the recon patrol who were of track...but to their credit that saw us first...numbnuts!
The Ninox/NAD combo was also a fun way to sneak up on the locals doing a bit of black market trading in the darker hours. Most of the time they would run like hell after a little "Ahem", those boys could really move quick when they had the crap scared out of them.

 

[old faithful]

No, they are called 'Searchers.' Also, an ambush no longer has a Killing Ground. It has an Engagement Area.

As for the double-tapping, well, that's still standard practice. It seems odd that it might be fine to shoot them while they are alive... but heaven forbid if you shoot them when they are dead.

How does the mission statement read these days?
"2 section is to conduct a (fighting patrol) "area denial" patrol and (kill) surpress all enemy encountered. Something along those lines? nfloorl:

The engagment ares sounds like something from the wedding planner!