Counter ISR weapons

[Ozzy Blizzard]

With situational awareness becoming the new high ground, and multi million/billion dollar assets involved, i was wondering what you guys thought about the emerging counter ISR weapons that seem to me to be a massive equaliser. Space based platforms, AWACS and AEW&C aircraft, unmaned platformes like global hawk are all becoming more vulnerable. These have been baned by treaty but orbital and sub orbital ISR weapons like the ASM 135 ASAT must still be around with continuing R&D. With long range air to air missiles like METEOR, R37, R172 and R77M1, the S-400 SAM system and emerging ground baced and airbourne HEL systems, hiding your airbourne assets such as JSTARS or AWACS/AEW&Cs behind a decent fighter escort just doesnt seem to cut it when AA systems can be launched from under (or just above) the Radar horizon. HEL and orbital/sub orbital systems are just not feasible for non superpower nations due to cost. Long range AAM's, especially russian, would seem to be a verry attractive investment for nations who cant afford sophisticated ISR assets of their own. What type of defencive tactics/systems can be used to counter these threats, especially for smaller nations like Australia that cant afford the exteem performance of the F22? Is this a major equaliser for 3rd/4th teir millitaries?

 

[gf0012-aust]

I actually don't see lomg range AAM as a problem for AWACs and their kin.

the platforms are optimised for cruise and air launched missile detection.

conservatively, they have a 300km detection advantage in their own right. That means that they have fight or flight time advantage, and they have a countering capability depending on the missile used.

A long range missile is going to broadcast its footprint - and that allows response time movement.

Personally, i think that its overhyped.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

300km head on missile detection, when the incoming is using a passive seeker in the initial phases? i have to say i'm skeptical. your in a position know a bit more than me gf so ill take your word for it. At 200NM launch range at mach 6 time between launch and impact is about 3 minets on a stationary target. Head on air speeds could be less. Not much time for coutermeasures. a single incident may not be too much of a problem but you have to admit systems such as the R172 if it becomes operational will give the force without ISR assets the ability to target AWACS from beyond their defences. Some of the seeker technology looks pretty impresive on some of these systems. Wacking a jamming pod under the wing of an E3 isnt going to really insulate from the adversay's new found ability to reach out and touch your AWACS.

 

[Grand Danois]

Have I read somewhere that the MP-RTIP can fry a missile at 180 km? Now that's effective selfdefence. And the range of AWACS is hopefully 350+ km.

 

[aaaditya]

I actually don't see lomg range AAM as a problem for AWACs and their kin.

the platforms are optimised for cruise and air launched missile detection.

conservatively, they have a 300km detection advantage in their own right. That means that they have fight or flight time advantage, and they have a countering capability depending on the missile used.

A long range missile is going to broadcast its footprint - and that allows response time movement.

Personally, i think that its overhyped.

i wonder ,how quickly can a 55-70 ton awacs having a max cruise speed of 0.85 mach escape from an barrage of 4 long range anti-awacs cruise missiles fired from 350-400 kms away and travelling at 5 mach.

 

[kams]

Have I read somewhere that the MP-RTIP can fry a missile at 180 km? Now that's effective selfdefence. And the range of AWACS is hopefully 350+ km.

I thought MP-RTIP is meant for detection of low flying cruise missiles.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

And the range of AWACS is hopefully 350+ km.

for a missile shaped object in a head on trajectory with a passive sensor????? The returns for an incoming missile must be less than a bird at that range.

So no one really see's a real threat to airbourne ISR assets then?

 

[Grand Danois]

for a missile shaped object in a head on trajectory with a passive sensor????? The returns for an incoming missile must be less than a bird at that range.

So no one really see's a real threat to airbourne ISR assets then?

That range was not a comment on detection of the missile itself . I was thinking that SA of the surveillance aircraft and its detection range of the hostile delivery platform, means tactical options for the AWACS/J-STARS are increased. Global Hawk uses or will use MP-RTIP too...

What is that missile with a passive sensor homing on? An LPI AESA hurtling across the sky on a jet or an UAV?

The MP-RTIP is initially meant for ground surveillance, but will have LO missile detection in an early spiral.

Anyway, I'm deducing since DEW for F-22 and F-35 is quite likely, then that HUGE AESA that MP-RTIP is, would fry the electronics of an incoming missile from quite a distance.

Nice for self defence and perhaps also for cruise missile defence.

Cheers

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

That range was not a comment on detection of the missile itself . I was thinking that SA of the surveillance aircraft and its detection range of the hostile delivery platform, means tactical options for the AWACS/J-STARS are increased. Global Hawk uses or will use MP-RTIP too...

What is that missile with a passive sensor homing on? An LPI AESA hurtling across the sky on a jet or an UAV?

The MP-RTIP is initially meant for ground surveillance, but will have LO missile detection in an early spiral.

Anyway, I'm deducing since DEW for F-22 and F-35 is quite likely, then that HUGE AESA that MP-RTIP is, would fry the electronics of an incoming missile from quite a distance.

Nice for self defence and perhaps also for cruise missile defence.

Cheers

Cool misunderstood the detection ranges.

All JSTARS/AWACS will atleast have datalink going at full power, not to mention numerous other radiation leaks, that i'm sure a decent long range AAM like the R172 could use for mid cource corrections untill it go's active.

how many kilowhatts of radiation does a MP-RTIP put outin a beam? If it can fry missiles at 10+km's that is damn impressive and its allmost a Airbourne HEL
by itself. :eek2

 

[Grand Danois]

Cool misunderstood the detection ranges.

All JSTARS/AWACS will atleast have datalink going at full power, not to mention numerous other radiation leaks, that i'm sure a decent long range AAM like the R172 could use for mid cource corrections untill it go's active.

how many kilowhatts of radiation does a MP-RTIP put outin a beam? If it can fry missiles at 10+km's that is damn impressive and its allmost a Airbourne HEL
by itself. :eek2

Well, the radiolink can be directional and work in frequency hopping burst modes... Makes it hard to detect, correlate and track emissions. MP-RTIP could be used as datalink.

Don't know the output. However, found this brochure and in the illustration it takes out a cruise missile through electronic attack. So it is envisaged.

http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/ASD/brochures/airborne/MP-RTIP.pdf