Current F-16 Versions Are World's Most Advanced Multi-Role Fighters?

umair

Peace Enforcer
The Aussies rejected the Viper in favour of the Hornet back in the 80s cause it had no Sparrow capability then and was single engined.
BTW why AD,gf why exactly did you people go with the naval version of the Hornet when the F-18L was also available and going by figures, would have had better performance than the naval Hornets?
 

rjmaz1

New Member
The Aussies rejected the Viper in favour of the Hornet back in the 80s cause it had no Sparrow capability then and was single engined.
What are you trying to say? That the F-16 wasn't good in the 1980's so that automatically means its not good enough now? :confused:

If you put a single block 60 F-16 against the original F/A-18A's from the 1980's the F-16 would win every time. The F-16 would run out of missiles after it shot down multiple Hornets.

TBTW why AD,gf why exactly did you people go with the naval version of the Hornet when the F-18L was also available and going by figures, would have had better performance than the naval Hornets?
No one ever went with the F-18L, why should Australia have been the first customer and be the guinea pig?

The F-18L was more than just a F/A-18 without the carrier landing stuff, it had alot of parts from the YF-17.

As far as i know the F-18L was only proposed by Northrop and never got the go ahead by McDonnell Douglas. There was a court battle aparently.
 

onslaught

New Member
Why is that relevant? If your comparing the max weapon loads to other aircraft then your really clutching at straws.

The amount of countries that use F-16's will help increase the availability parts and upgrades well into the future. With the amount of weapons it can use its extremely versatile.

The F-16 has matured into an excellent aircraft. Not much left can be added too it.
There were several airframe problems with the F-16 so I wanted to know how much weight they put on it. I know very well that the F-16 can carry a wide array of weapons, but I don't judge aircraft based solely on their weapons load (let's hope nobody does).
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
The Aussies rejected the Viper in favour of the Hornet back in the 80s cause it had no Sparrow capability then and was single engined.
BTW why AD,gf why exactly did you people go with the naval version of the Hornet when the F-18L was also available and going by figures, would have had better performance than the naval Hornets?
You'd be better off asking Magoo. HE is THE Hornet expert... ;)

We went with the Hornet in the early 80's for the same reason we should utilise it in future instead of ANY F-16 variant if we choose some sort of "Hi-Lo" package. It's A2A combat capability in the HUG variant is equal or greater (as most F-16's worldwide are yet to include JHMCS AND a 4th gen "high off-boresight WVR missile) to any F-16 short of a Block 60 and it's A2G and anti-shipping capability is equal or greater.

The very idea that we would introduce a capability LESS than that which we operate now is ludicrous.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
The Aussies rejected the Viper in favour of the Hornet back in the 80s cause it had no Sparrow capability then and was single engined.
BTW why AD,gf why exactly did you people go with the naval version of the Hornet when the F-18L was also available and going by figures, would have had better performance than the naval Hornets?
Good thing Australia didn't go with the F18L as it would probably have been an orphan. Also I believe that some of the naval gear in the FA18A/B, such as the tailhook, has been used from time to time. It has also proven advantageous for the RAAF to be able to integrate their Hornets with US led coalition forces (as in the second Gulf War). Having Hornets compatable with those of the USN and Marine Corps would have been an advantage in these cases.

I also agree with Aussie Digger that the HUG Hornet would beat any but perhaps the very latest F16 in both the air combat and strike roles
 

Scorpion82

New Member
Without reading any replies, I only respond to the opening post.

To make it short the phrase is nothing more than pure marketing. Every manufacturer tries to sell his product and put it in the best light to do so. Even if it is beyond the truth...

The F-16 is a proven and yet still advanced and good fighter. Is it the most advanced? Obvisously not. That would mean the F-22 is less advanced than the F-16 as it is a multirole fighter as well. There're a couple of platforms which are more advanced than the F-16. F-22, Eurofighter and Rafale shell be the best examples for now. To evaluate how advanced a combat aircraft is, you have to take into account all the involved technologies and it is a must to not limit your self to a single factor.
Construction methods, aerodynamics, flight controls and even engines aren't the top of what can be found in the aviation world. Though the new F110-GE-132 is very good, its on the top of what can be achieved with the F110. Though I'm not sure I haven't found any evidences for sensor fusion, EMCON and other similar technologies for any F-16 derivate. The APG-80 is up to date, but performance looks not that impressive for an AESA system especially in terms of multiple target track capabilities, though it should be increased.Current Blk 60 weight about 50% more than the F-16A resulting in lowered performance in many areas as the additional thrust can't compensate heigher wing loading etc.. I don't see DVI, fully electronic cockpit design without the need for paper checklists etc. and I don't see the comprehensive health monitoring systems etc. Even the blk 60 isn't more advanced than other new generation fighters, though it comes close in some areas. The older blk 50+/52+ are still way behind without modulare avioncs structure, fully integrated EWS and only AN/APG-68.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
BTW why AD,gf why exactly did you people go with the naval version of the Hornet when the F-18L was also available and going by figures, would have had better performance than the naval Hornets?
Sorry for the late reply - I hadn't gone near this thread so missed the q.

Most of its been stated already by Tasman and Aussie Digger.

Primarily because it was more of a proof of concept than all the others, and it would have been a sales orphan.

Magoo is the the Hornet expert though :p:

Tailhooks have come in handy though - and we have them on the F-111 as well.
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Aussies rejected the Viper in favour of the Hornet back in the 80s cause it had no Sparrow capability then and was single engined.
BTW why AD,gf why exactly did you people go with the naval version of the Hornet when the F-18L was also available and going by figures, would have had better performance than the naval Hornets?

To cut a long story short - the RAAF test and evaluation pilots of the time thought the F-18L was a ripper after they flew a YF-17 prototype (which was used as the F-18L demonstrator) at Palmdale in 1979. It was very fast with anecdotal reports claiming it go supersonic without using ABs, climbed like a rocket, and was extremely manoeuverable with awesome high alpha characteristics. The YF-17 also had good range and a reasonable weapons load, was just 2/3 the weight of the F/A-18A with basically the same engines, and was much cleaner aerodynamically.

However, as gf said, the RAAF would have been an orphan operator - the F-18L was too different to the US Navy's F/A-18A to share any major commonality in both spares and future upgrades. Also, it was less developed than the F/A-18A, (no prototypes had flown whereas the first F/A-18 flew in 1978) and therefore would have been available to the RAAF later than their requirements.

Re the F-16 - the original A model as marketed to the RAAF, while being very fast and extremely manoeuverable, had no BVR A2A missile, no maritime attack capability (two primary RAAF requirements), and had a very ordinary reliability and attrition rate in the early years of USAF service - it wasn't dubbed the 'lawn dart' for nothing! It wasn't until the Block 20 model was proposed in 1981 that it was taken more seriously, but again, this would not have been available to the RAAF until several years after the F/A-18A, and it was too late by then as the evaluation pilots wouldn't have been able to fly an example.

Cheers

Magoo
 

vedang

New Member
Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!!

:confused:
but on the other hand no one can deny that F-16 is better dog fighter than F-15, F-18 & Su-30 & as far as its BVR modes go well it now carries AIM-120 with AESA APG-80 Radar as well. .

All I can say to this is OH MY GOD!!!:eek:nfloorl:

DOG_FIGHT....Su-30(with vector-thrust)>>>>any version of any plane in the world(xcept F-22&&maybeTYPHOON,RAFALE):)
 

Big-E

Banned Member
:confused:


All I can say to this is OH MY GOD!!!:eek:nfloorl:

DOG_FIGHT....Su-30(with vector-thrust)>>>>any version of any plane in the world(xcept F-22&&maybeTYPHOON,RAFALE):)
The F-16 is a great dog-fighter. We went up against them in aggresor training at Fallon. They are very hard to get a lock on. They can turn faster than even an Su-30 with VT. They can conduct maneveurs on the perverbial head of a pin if the pilots are that tight. If a Su-30 wanted to go head to head with one they would do best to put some distance between them. If they get caught in a turning battle it would be reminiscent of F-4s against Mig-17s.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
The F-16 is a great dog-fighter. We went up against them in aggresor training at Fallon. They are very hard to get a lock on. They can turn faster than even an Su-30 with VT. They can conduct maneveurs on the perverbial head of a pin if the pilots are that tight. If a Su-30 wanted to go head to head with one they would do best to put some distance between them. If they get caught in a turning battle it would be reminiscent of F-4s against Mig-17s.
You took F-18E/F against F-16C/D (US Navy vs USAF) ???
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The F-16 is a great dog-fighter.
which version of the F-16? If its a latter model then it would be like running a slalom course with a mustang and a dodge voyager.

my understanding is that the early 16's (A/B's) were the cream dogfighters - the latter models being dodge voyagers in comparison ....
 

Scorpion82

New Member
The F-16 is a great dog-fighter. They can turn faster than even an Su-30 with VT. They can conduct maneveurs on the perverbial head of a pin if the pilots are that tight. If a Su-30 wanted to go head to head with one they would do best to put some distance between them. If they get caught in a turning battle it would be reminiscent of F-4s against Mig-17s.
And you base that comparison on what? A Su-30 with half fuel load is surely not less manoeuvreable than the F-16. If you only compare turning rates which are available you will see the Flanker performing better than the Viper.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
which version of the F-16? If its a latter model then it would be like running a slalom course with a mustang and a dodge voyager.

my understanding is that the early 16's (A/B's) were the cream dogfighters - the latter models being dodge voyagers in comparison ....
Those are the only kind Fallon has. The C/Ds are not as responsive but it would not be accuarate to use the voyager comparison.
 

crobato

New Member
People here think that high wingloading equals sluggish plane. The F-16A/B -> low wingloading. The F-16C/D -> high wingloading. By such implication, the F-16C/D is a sluggish plane (Dodge Voyager).

Nothing is further than the truth. In WWII, the FW190 has a high wing loading, and yet it is more nimble than fighters with lower wing loading including Spitfires, Mustangs, and various Russian fighters that can turn around a pin.

That's because few factor another important quality in agility---roll rates. High and low wingloading dont change that. Late model MiG-21s also have high wingloading and yet, they can roll and quickly snip into a turn.

What high wing loading affects is the turn rate and turn circle but that is also in consideration of altitude. A plane with low wing loading can do turns better when the air thins out, but on sea level, even a plane with high wing loading can turn quickly. Low wing loading helps very tight turns that are done on low speeds.

The equivalent of a plane doing car slalom runs would be doing a series of S turns, and that has to do more with roll rate than turn rate. Thus the description of the F-16C being a Dodge Voyager in a slalom won't be true---the -C could still roll as fast as any -A.

Twin engined planes with seperated engines like Su-30s, and likewise, F-15s and F-14s are likely to suffer from lower roll rates than planes with single engines ala F-16s and MiG-21s. This has to do with the position of the engine mass with the bore of the plane. The more you have of it right in the dead center, the better.

I do think the Su-30 can turn tighter, do better on instant turn rates and achieve higher AoA than the F-16C, but the F-16C still has better roll rates and can flick into turns quicker. This is more like a Spitfire vs. FW190 kind of fight in my opinion.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
@Crobato,
roll rates might cause advantages, but they aren't as important as turning rates and radius. All fighters today reach an acceptable roll rate some roll faster, others slower. But if there're no really big differences then roll rates might have nearly no impact. If your aircraft has really low roll rates in contrast to the opponent it will effect things much more.
 

ripper

New Member
People here think that high wingloading equals sluggish plane.
A good example would be a glider compared to a SR-71. In some cases, the higher the wing loading the faster the plane and vice-versa. Or look @ the Bone... high wing loading and fast speeds. Or look at the F-35... low w/l (in certain load outs) and lower top end speed vs an F-16.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
A good example would be a glider compared to a SR-71. In some cases, the higher the wing loading the faster the plane and vice-versa. Or look @ the Bone... high wing loading and fast speeds. Or look at the F-35... low w/l (in certain load outs) and lower top end speed vs an F-16.
The fastest fighter plane the F-22 has a low wing loading. So that blows your theory out of the water.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
People here think that high wingloading equals sluggish plane. The F-16A/B -> low wingloading. The F-16C/D -> high wingloading. By such implication, the F-16C/D is a sluggish plane (Dodge Voyager).
My comments were based on feedback from F-16 pilots.

Still, various people at Occums location may know. After all, they have fixed wing fighter test pilots and flight test engineers on site.

If he/they read this they might deign to answer.
 

ripper

New Member
The fastest fighter plane the F-22 has a low wing loading. So that blows your theory out of the water.
I would believe that's because its got massive thrust to push itself through the atmosphere (also where the 22s are flying is in the rarified atmosphere and therefore less lift at a given velocity when compared to the same velocity at a lower altitude). Lift = inherent drag since the force of lift is acting oposite to the forward velocity vector. That's why Tomcats swept their wings backwards at high speeds... To reduce lift and ie reduce drag - Same with the Bones. I'm not an aeronautical engineer, but I know a little about fluids and the like. The theory is still good, but there are always exceptions to every rule.
 
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