FutureTank
Banned Member
I wonder what they used for targets. Still a few Shermans out there
Singapore to acquire Leopard 2A4s
- Thread starter kotay
- Start date
I wonder if they still have any left over Japanese junk laying around from WWII.I wonder what they used for targets. Still a few Shermans out there
tankee1981
New Member
They have plenty of old tanks to be used for target practice! Remember the Soviet tanks captured from the Arabs in the past? And those old tanks which haven't been upgraded such as the Centurions.
Maybe they should set up a range and let armies from around the world to fire off their MBT main guns at some realistic targets for a fee.
Maybe they should set up a range and let armies from around the world to fire off their MBT main guns at some realistic targets for a fee.
tankee1981
New Member
How did Singapore get those tanks?
tankee1981
New Member
I was refering to Israel not Singapore. We are a relatively young country with a young armed forces and those that are still working are stored for our NSmen(reservists) to use in time of war. So very little old tanks or totally none for us to practise shooting at.
I didn't know this was an IDF thread.. it says Singapore at the top.Hmm...i didn't know that the Israelis have old WW2 jap tanks...care to enlighten me?
tankee1981
New Member
There must have been a misunderstanding...I didn't know this was an IDF thread.. it says Singapore at the top.
If you scroll up i just posted an article about the Israeli Lahat missile, and FutureTank asked what they used for target practice so i assume he is talking about what the Israelis use as targets when firing their Lahats.
Cheers
FutureTank
Banned Member
I meant...what did the Germans use to test Lahats in Leopards.
Israelis practice on T-55s
The thing i still don't get is, where the hell will singapore be able to train Tank Doctrine with a mix of Supporting Infantry assault. What do you do when you get to the fence, turn around a carry on, it just seems like sinapore is too small place to play with the 96 Leo2s.
Australia would be the most obvious place, and would Singapore be able to use Australia for Leo2 testing, training and doctrine drills.
Current regular Excercises up top end would see Singapore donate more in terms of MBT, even a little Leo on Abrahm battle, always good for the post battle review in the bar:argue
Australia would be the most obvious place, and would Singapore be able to use Australia for Leo2 testing, training and doctrine drills.
Current regular Excercises up top end would see Singapore donate more in terms of MBT, even a little Leo on Abrahm battle, always good for the post battle review in the bar:argue
It depends on their doctrine. IMO, you wouldn't want to try and take on the sings leading into the city proper. There are numerous places where tanks could dominate the approaches and absolutely slice up approaching armour or infantry. They don't need to do a "kursk".
It would be an ugly place for FIBUA - and in the defenders favour.
It will be interesting to see whether they bring armour into future events. If the store forward basing on the Nthn training grounds happens, then they might get to leave some of their kit here for training storage,
tankee1981
New Member
Yes, it is impossible to do any large scale training in Singapore itself. We conduct exercises up to divisional level in Shoalwater Bay training area in Queensland annually, we call it Ex Wallaby.
We will leave some of our equipment there for training purposes because it is not practial and economical to ship equipment such as the soon to arrive Leopard tanks back and fore. I believe it will be just a matter of time when we trained with the Aussie M1A1 AIM using our refurbished Leo2A4.
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Maybe they didn't test the Lahat in Israel but in germany.
There are enough modern testing and practicing ranges here and we have huge stocks of rad targets for practicing here consisting of T-55s, T-72s, M48s, Leo 1s and many IFVs and APCs as well as old WWII stuff.
Training the Aussie M1s together with the Leos should be the best option. Australia is not that far away and you can use the experience of the training in Germany and Canada of Abrams vs Leo exercises. Grafenwöhr training area is a good example for a place were you could learn much.
Or what I would prefere is them coming to our national traning centre. Huge, modern, totally digitalised, allows exercises of brigade vs brigade strength, is optimized for Leos and there should be enough capacities after we reduced our armored forces so much.
There are enough modern testing and practicing ranges here and we have huge stocks of rad targets for practicing here consisting of T-55s, T-72s, M48s, Leo 1s and many IFVs and APCs as well as old WWII stuff.
Training the Aussie M1s together with the Leos should be the best option. Australia is not that far away and you can use the experience of the training in Germany and Canada of Abrams vs Leo exercises. Grafenwöhr training area is a good example for a place were you could learn much.
Or what I would prefere is them coming to our national traning centre. Huge, modern, totally digitalised, allows exercises of brigade vs brigade strength, is optimized for Leos and there should be enough capacities after we reduced our armored forces so much.
Many people still hang on to the ridiculous notion that SE Asia terrain is not suitable for heavy 50-ton MBTs.
They hash and rehash all the tired old arguments about rice paddies, bridge, mud, forests, plantations, BUA etc etc. As if the US, UK, Europe, Middle East don't have mud, forests or plantations, BUA or bridges that collapses from anything heavier than a bullock cart.
Now that Singapore went and bought the Leo 2, I'm surprised this still hasn't changed the minds of some of these folks.
This is all the more strange, when SG has had MBTs in the form of the Centurion - since the 70's.
Sure, the MBT can't go EVERYWHERE. But then there are people like Pathfinders, recce, S3, Combat Engineers etc etc whose job are to help decide where the MBT can go and how to get there.
And once there, there is nothing more daunting or formidable than 50-ton of fighting machine coming at you. Arty is great and so is air support. But in the end, it is what's on the ground that gets the job done.
They hash and rehash all the tired old arguments about rice paddies, bridge, mud, forests, plantations, BUA etc etc. As if the US, UK, Europe, Middle East don't have mud, forests or plantations, BUA or bridges that collapses from anything heavier than a bullock cart.
Now that Singapore went and bought the Leo 2, I'm surprised this still hasn't changed the minds of some of these folks.
This is all the more strange, when SG has had MBTs in the form of the Centurion - since the 70's.
Sure, the MBT can't go EVERYWHERE. But then there are people like Pathfinders, recce, S3, Combat Engineers etc etc whose job are to help decide where the MBT can go and how to get there.
And once there, there is nothing more daunting or formidable than 50-ton of fighting machine coming at you. Arty is great and so is air support. But in the end, it is what's on the ground that gets the job done.
tankee1981
New Member
Maybe they didn't test the Lahat in Israel but in germany.
There are enough modern testing and practicing ranges here and we have huge stocks of rad targets for practicing here consisting of T-55s, T-72s, M48s, Leo 1s and many IFVs and APCs as well as old WWII stuff.
Training the Aussie M1s together with the Leos should be the best option. Australia is not that far away and you can use the experience of the training in Germany and Canada of Abrams vs Leo exercises. Grafenwöhr training area is a good example for a place were you could learn much.
Or what I would prefere is them coming to our national traning centre. Huge, modern, totally digitalised, allows exercises of brigade vs brigade strength, is optimized for Leos and there should be enough capacities after we reduced our armored forces so much.
According to official press release from MINDEF, the first batch of trainees should be arriving in Germany by end of 2007. But from experience, most probably they will start earlier than that.
Glad to do busniess with you Germans, you guys are known to be technologically advanced and efficient, qualities which Singapore is familiar with so we wll get along fine. There is plenty to learn about MBTs too so its a great learning experience.
Wish i am younger and an army regular then i may have the chance to be sent to Germany.
For SG , there is no plan to retire the AMX-13SM1 even after Leo 2 is operational, in fact there is still development for SM1 replacement, it will be light, likely to be MLC30 and width of 3m amd most likely to be more expensive than the Leo 2 that we are getting.
So based on indication, SAF will continue to operate MBT, LT with IFV/APC, nothing seem to change, and SAF does not seem to follow what you are advocating.
actually, I think you'll find that you and chino are singing from the same sheet of music......
I'm sure Singapore will not admit to a policy of keeping '...any fighting away from their own crowded territory...', but a few years ago, there was a big brouhaha about just such a possibility as revealed by a book by Thomas Huxley. In it (if I can remember it), an imaginary line of 'forward defense' would run about 150-200km outside of Singapore's northern border - right smack in the middle of Malaysian territory!!!
Interestingly enough, the terrain there is highly networked by good roads, sturdy bridges, not that much vegetation; ideal working environment for their new Leo IIAs.
The highway through Johore is an armoured columns paradise...
I think you mean Tim Huxley...